Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

wes

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Remind me who declared the blockade illegal ? Has the EU for example?

Ok, this has already been posted, but clearly are happy to ignore it:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2009/sc9567.doc.htm

--SNIP--
“2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;

“3. Welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid;
--SNIP--

Israels siege clearly violating the above resolution, and hence illegal.

alastair

wes wrote: »

Yes, it is actually clear cut, as the blockade is illegal under International law in the first place. Hence, what Israel did on the boat also illegal.

The blockade is a red herring, legally speaking. If the ships had been allowed to continue into Gazan territorial waters, the Israelis could make a pretty good claim as to a legally sound basis for boarding/stopping the flotilla. The Israelis retain military control of those territorial waters (under the Interim Agreement with the PA), regardless of whether there's a blockade in place or not, and the flotilla would be subject to their rules on that turf.

In international waters they have no legal justification though - not a sausage.

Ardent

sensibleken wrote: »

im sorry but some people arent as apathetic as you are. the people on those ships decided they couldnt stand by and watch the crimes going on against gaza continue.

Well, I agree with Rev Hellfire.

If you feel you're duty-bound to try and help the Palestinians, fair enough, knock yourself out. But don't be surprised to get a bullet if you attempt to breach a long established blockade and attack armed soldiers wiht metal poles. :idiot smiley:

alastair

Ardent wrote: »

attack armed soldiers wiht metal poles.

That's 'sophisticated weapons'.

20Cent

Ardent wrote: »

Well, I agree with Rev Hellfire.

If you feel you're duty-bound to try and help the Palestinians, fair enough, knock yourself out. But don't be surprised to get a bullet if you attempt to breach a long established blockade and attack armed soldiers wiht metal poles. :idiot smiley:

People shouldn't stand up to bullies?
Those people were incredibly brave, they probably thought they were fighting for their lives.

Cannibal Ox

alastair wrote: »

The blockade is a red herring, legally speaking. If the ships had been allowed to continue into Gazan territorial waters, the Israelis could make a pretty good claim as to a legally sound basis for boarding/stopping the flotilla. The Israelis retain military control of those territorial waters (under the Interim Agreement with the PA), regardless of whether there's a blockade in place or not, and the flotilla would be subject to their rules on that turf.

In international waters they have no legal justification though - not a sausage.

I understood that as a defensive measure they can justify it? By arguing that the flotilla was bringing weapons in to Gaza that would then be turned on Israeli soldiers and citizens they are justified in at least stopping the flotilla in international waters and, as they're arguing, once they were "attacked" by people on board the ship, they were within their rights to defend themselves.

youcrazyjesus!

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Remind me who declared the blockade illegal ? Has the EU for example?

Our Taoiseach for one. Many senior UN figures.

Byron85

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I understood that as a defensive measure they can justify it? By arguing that the flotilla was bringing weapons in to Gaza that would then be turned on Israeli soldiers and citizens they are justified in at least stopping the flotilla in international waters and, as they're arguing, once they were "attacked" by people on board the ship, they were within their rights to defend themselves.

Yes but as I said earlier though, it appears the whole thing was illegal from the very start.

Everything you are saying is seemingly negated by the following:

Quote:
Senior ministers have noted that, in contrast to the handling of similar incidents in the past, the inner cabinet did not discuss issues related to the flotilla, receive operational briefings or approve the operation. The forum of seven, which did consider and approve the plan, is a consultative body only and does not have the legal authority to pass resolutions.
It seems that the entire operation was illegitimate from the very start, right down to the Parliamentary level. It was illegal from the start so please tell all of us how it could be legal later on once the operation got under way?

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/top-ministers-fume-after-gaza-flotilla-operation-goes-ahead-without-their-approval-1.293414

Also where are these weapons and munitions? The munitions part was mentioned by the Deputy Israeli Ambassador on the radio this morning but the only weapons that anyone has seen thus far are knives. Knives that are in my kitchen, your kitchen, everyone's kitchen!

sensibleken

Ardent wrote: »

Well, I agree with Rev Hellfire.

If you feel you're duty-bound to try and help the Palestinians, fair enough, knock yourself out. But don't be surprised to get a bullet if you attempt to breach a long established blockade and attack armed soldiers wiht metal poles. :idiot smiley:

attack? when an army boards your boat in international waters, an army from a state with a history of killing aid activists. what i saw was people fighting for their lives.

if the aid workers had pre planned an attack on the soldiers they would have brought and used items that would have been effective and not improvised weapons when they themselves came under attack by the IDA boarding their vessel from helicopters. im presuming the israelis werent looking for a cup of sugar

Ardent

20Cent wrote: »

People shouldn't stand up to bullies?

As I said before, only an idiot brings a metal pole to a gun fight.

Those people were incredibly brave, they probably thought they were fighting for their lives.

Sure they did.

dyl10

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Remind me who declared the blockade illegal ? Has the EU for example?

Allegedly the EU helped legitimise the blockade.
Hopefully this can go some way toward stopping European and American support for Israel.

Anyone know how this has been perceived in the US media?

alastair

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I understood that as a defensive measure they can justify it? By arguing that the flotilla was bringing weapons in to Gaza that would then be turned on Israeli soldiers and citizens they are justified in at least stopping the flotilla in international waters and, as they're arguing, once they were "attacked" by people on board the ship, they were within their rights to defend themselves.

Israel isn't claiming that there were any weapons on board the ships - quite the opposite - they said that they would forward the aid over land. They haven't disputed the customs checks undertaken at the start of the journey. They just want to sustain the blockade, regardless of what the contents of the ships are.

The claim that having declared they were sailing to Gaza, the flotilla opened up a legal mechanism for Israeli boarding in international waters isn't supported by any law - and the Israelis haven't attempted to point out any law that supports their contention. Keep in mind they have also claimed that they siezed 'sophisticated' weapons - which doesn't tally with reality either.

Ardent

sensibleken wrote: »

attack? when an army boards your boat in international waters, an army from a state with a history of killing aid activists. what i saw was people fighting for their lives.

Yes, attack. Colour it whatever way you want but the fact remains that many ships have been boarded by this well established blockade in the past and yet this one got out of control. Isn't it abvious why? I mean, there's even video footage if you have doubts.

marius

Just feel I should point out that of the 9 previous humanitarian vessels that tried to deliver aid to Gaza - 5 got through and 4 were turned back.

This 'long established blockade' has let ships through before. Without atacking and murdering people on board.

This 'long established blockade' is also totally illegal. Isreal has no legal right to say what goods come in and out of Gaza whatsoever.

Using the fact that there is a totally illegal blockade to justify boarding ships in international waters in crazy talk.

gandalf

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Yes but as I said earlier though, it appears the whole thing was illegal from the very start.



Also where are these weapons and munitions? The munitions part was mentioned by the Deputy Israeli Ambassador on the radio this morning but the only weapons that anyone has seen thus far are knives. Knives that are in my kitchen, your kitchen, everyone's kitchen!

No apparently the munitions were marbles to be fired from the couple of slingshots they found. Given the whole David and Goliath story from the old Testament the IDF clearly feel that a slingshot is a formidable weapon system.

I believe the Gaza residents have set up a Trebuchet capable of hurling bags of cement. God help everyone if they get their hands on these clearly dangerous munitions :rolleyes:

Byron85

alastair wrote: »

Israel isn't claiming that there were any weapons on board the ships

Actually they have. They have also claimed that the occupants of the ship were chanting "death to the Jews". You know that they are truly desperate to win a situation when they start playing the anti-semite card.

alastair

Ardent wrote: »

As I said before, only an idiot brings a metal pole to a gun fight.

So, you'd be with Hamas on the need to resolve the whole situation through violent means then?

dlofnep

Ardent wrote: »

Yes, attack. Colour it whatever way you want but the fact remains that many ships have been boarded by this well established blockade in the past and yet this one got out of control. Isn't it abvious why? I mean, there's even video footage if you have doubts.

Yes, it's obvious why. Israeli commandos jump onboard from helicopter, with guns in an illegal act of provocation and piracy. It's very clear who is in the wrong here.

Imagine if Iran had done this? All those defending Israel would be ragging on Iran right now.

gandalf

Ardent wrote: »

Yes, attack. Colour it whatever way you want but the fact remains that many ships have been boarded by this well established blockade in the past and yet this one got out of control. Isn't it abvious why? I mean, there's even video footage if you have doubts.

Edited video footage from one side.

sensibleken

Ardent wrote: »

Yes, attack. Colour it whatever way you want but the fact remains that many ships have been boarded by this well established blockade in the past and yet this one got out of control. Isn't it abvious why? I mean, there's even video footage if you have doubts.

yes i have seen all the video footage and read all the arguements and nothing convinces me that this wasnt a vicious attack by the israelis

Ardent

marius wrote: »

Using the fact that there is a totally illegal blockade to justify boarding ships in international waters in crazy talk.

You must be still asleep, I never tried to justify it at any time. And your point is???

wes

alastair wrote: »

The blockade is a red herring, legally speaking. If the ships had been allowed to continue into Gazan territorial waters, the Israelis could make a pretty good claim as to a legally sound basis for boarding/stopping the flotilla. The Israelis retain military control of those territorial waters (under the Interim Agreement with the PA), regardless of whether there's a blockade in place or not, and the flotilla would be subject to their rules on that turf.

In international waters they have no legal justification though - not a sausage.

Well, the Israeli's have claimed publically to have left Gaza, and have claimed to be not occupying it. I think there own claims of not occuyping, kind of torpedo, there own claims of control of Gaza waters. Basically, Israel are trying to have there cake and eat it too. So, while there may be some legal basis of stopping the ships in Gaza's waters, Israel own claims do open up some leeway imho.

Capt'n Midnight

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Remind me who declared the blockade illegal ? Has the EU for example?

As I've already posted the word quarantine was used during the Cuban Missile Crisis because by definition a blockade is an act of war.

So a blockade is not legal in peacetime, because when you declare a blockade you declare war.

alastair

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Actually they have. They have also claimed that the occupants of the ship were chanting "death to the Jews". You know that they are truly desperate to win a situation when they start playing the anti-semite card.

They didn't claim any weapons on board other than the pictured stash of 'sophisticated' weapons used against the IDF on the ship (oh and a couple of IDF nicked guns). They haven't presented these as intended contraband for Gaza.

The chanting (or something close to it) did take place on the ship earlier on, and the video recorded by al jazeera - but that's another red herring. If the flotilla had gone to plan, they would have had no interaction with Israelis at all.

halkar

Turkish prime minister is back from South America addressing the cabinet. Live on Al Jazeera battering Isreali government and their policies.

Byron85

alastair wrote: »

They didn't claim any weapons on board other than the pictured stash of 'sophisticated' weapons used against the IDF on the ship (oh and a couple of IDF nicked guns). They haven't presented these as intended contraband for Gaza.

The chanting (or something close to it) did take place on the ship earlier on, and the video recorded by al jazeera - but that's another red herring. If the flotilla had gone to plan, they would have had no interaction with Israelis at all.

The Deputy Ambassador last night and this morning, on Irish airwaves, said that the boat was transporting weapons.

Ardent

To re-iterate, I make no assertion as to whether the blockade is legal or not. Merely, that it exists, and has done so for some time.

The fact that there deaths on that ship is terrible but could have been avoided if the "peaceful aid workers" were a little more aware of the situation they were in and hadn't resorted to violence.

And yes, they initiated the violence - deal with it.

alastair

wes wrote: »

Well, the Israeli's have claimed publically to have left Gaza, and have claimed to be not occupying it. I think there own claims of not occuyping, kind of torpedo, there own claims of control of Gaza waters. Basically, Israel are trying to have there cake and eat it too. So, while there may be some legal basis of stopping the ships in Gaza's waters, Israel own claims do open up some leeway imho.

Israel doesn't dispute it's control of Gaza's airspace and waters. It got agreement for that in the Interim Agreement of '95. They have the legal force of a treaty behind them.

Memnoch

Ardent wrote: »

And yes, they initiated the violence - deal with it.

No. Deal with it.

Ardent

deadtiger wrote: »

Edited video footage from one side.

Regardless, video footage that shows aid workers setting upon the soldiers like maniacs.