Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

dlofnep

Ardent wrote: »

And yes, they initiated the violence - deal with it.

Prove it. Show me an unedited video of the entire event. You haven't even heard the comments of those who were onboard yet. You've already made up your mind as to what happened.

Capt'n Midnight

jonsnow wrote: »

Not that it would ever ever happen.but the turkish navy would crush the israeli navy.

The israeli navy is a glorified coastguard while the turkish navy ranks eighth in the world in terms of staff, with 51,000 active personnel; and third largest in Europe in terms of the displacement of the total fleet, with 258,948 tons

The Israelis have local air superiority.

happymondays wrote: »

Remember Turkey is a NATO country so any act if war against one NATO country automically brings all the others in! world war 3 possibly!

The Parties of NATO agreed that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence will assist the Party or Parties being attacked, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area
No they don't have to join in.

And they didn't when the USS Liberty was attacked.

orourkeda

alastair wrote: »

So, you'd be with Hamas on the need to resolve the whole situation through violent means then?

People died at the hands of the Israeli Military. Isn't this trying to resolve a situation through "violent means" as you put it.

Ardent

dlofnep wrote: »

Prove it. Show me an unedited video of the entire event. You haven't even heard the comments of those who were onboard yet. You've already made up your mind as to what happened.

How convenient to dismiss the video evidence because of the source of the material.

Remy13

Ardent wrote: »

And yes, they initiated the violence - deal with it.

i wasn't aware it was the aid workers that stormed IDF boats in the middle of the night.

omega666

Ardent wrote: »

And yes, they initiated the violence - deal with it.

Could you post up the eyewitness reports you have to support this please? (i was under the impression we havent heard anything from the people on the ship yet, only what the IDF have been telling us)

Rev Hellfire

dlofnep wrote: »

Imagine if Iran had done this? All those defending Israel would be ragging on Iran right now.

If Iran had a neighbor who was indiscriminately firing rockets into its cities and calling for its destruction. Then I'd perhaps be inclined to have sympathy for them.

Ardent

Remy13 wrote: »

i wasn't aware it was the aid workers that stormed IDF boats in the middle of the night.

Wow you're so clever.

Byron85

Ardent wrote: »

To re-iterate, I make no assertion as to whether the blockade is legal or not. Merely, that it exists, and has done so for some time.

The fact that there deaths on that ship is terrible but could have been avoided if the "peaceful aid workers" were a little more aware of the situation they were in and hadn't resorted to violence.

And yes, they initiated the violence - deal with it.

Ok then, how about this analogy.

When I was younger I was being following by a group of maybe 5 teenagers who were around the same age as me. They were taunting me and shouting at me. Then one of them ran at me from behind and tried to kick me. I instinctively turned around and punched him. The next thing I know i'm in the middle of the road, on the ground, getting kicked in the head and the face by the group of teenagers. Luckily they stopped after a minute or so. Up until that point I had been walking peacefully and minding my own business. I had been warned before that the town I was in could be dangerous at times but I had never really had any major trouble until the night of the above incident.

So, am I to blame for being set upon by violent teenagers after I tried to defend myself? If I was, according to your criteria, i'll make sure to go back and apologise to those people for so willingly giving them the back of my head to kick.

Ardent

Ok kids, I have work to do. I'll leave you all to carry on posting rubbish for another 40 pages or so. Later.

orourkeda

Again the U.S is the only permanent member of the security council that hasnt yet called for the removal of this blockade.

It's obvious that they will move to veto any sanction for this attack if the Israelis are found at fault once all the facts have come to light. With this guarantee is it any wonder that Israel behaves in the manner it does.

Run_to_da_hills

Memnoch wrote: »

The oppressed become oppressor (in fairness this happened a long time ago). The sad truth of Israel is how little they've learned from their own history. They rightly deserve the condemnation of the world. I personally will be boycotting any products made in Israel.

It dose not take too much to figure out Israeli products.

729 Israeli Bar Code Association - EAN Israel.

wes

alastair wrote: »

Israel doesn't dispute it's control of Gaza's airspace and waters. It got agreement for that in the Interim Agreement of '95. They have the legal force of a treaty behind them.

Again, the claim to have left Gaza, and as such are saying the treaty is void, as they are not occupying Gaza.

Anyway, it doesn't matter in the current context, as the ships were in International waters.

gandalf

Ardent wrote: »

Regardless, video footage that shows aid workers setting upon the soldiers like maniacs.

Soldiers who had no place boarding a ship in International Waters.

alastair

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The Deputy Ambassador last night and this morning, on Irish airwaves, said that the boat was transporting weapons.

No she didn't - she said that the IDF were attacked with weapons - knives, metal rods and pistols (neglecting to mention they were IDF pistols) - "You can see it on the TV" she said. She never tried to pass the cargo off as containing weapons for Gaza. The footage is up on the RTE iPlayer to confirm.

dlofnep

Ardent wrote: »

How convenient to dismiss the video evidence because of the source of the material.

it's not convenient.

You've swallowed Israeli propaganda, without once hearing eye-witness descriptions of what occurred, and without seeing a full unedited video from start to end.

Remy13

Ardent wrote: »

Regardless, video footage that shows aid workers setting upon the soldiers like maniacs.

they were being boarded in international waters which is an act of piracy and they had every right to respond violently to repel these attackers even if it's the IDF. the Israelis are in the wrong which ever way you slice it.

alastair

wes wrote: »

Again, the claim to have left Gaza, and as such are saying the treaty is void, as they are not occupying Gaza.

Anyway, it doesn't matter in the current context, as the ships were in International waters.

Where are you getting this from? The Interim Agreement is the ongoing basis for all Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. It wasn't invalidated by the withdrawal from Gaza - it was an agreed pre-requisite.

Carlos_Ray

Fair play to the Israelis for holding back. They didn't start the killing until the protestors fought back with sticks. Usually, when facing Palestinians, they start the killing as soon as they are looked direct in the eye.So they actually showed restraint.

wes

alastair wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? The Interim Agreement is the ongoing basis for all Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. It wasn't invalidated by the withdrawal from Gaza - it was an agreed pre-requisite.

Again, this is irrelevant to the current discussion, and I have said my piece already.

Roibead

1. Check International Law it was not Breached.

2. Clear and Blatant Lies on the Free Gaza site Quote "Under darkness of night, Israeli commandoes dropped from a helicopter onto the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began to shoot the moment their feet hit the deck. They fired directly into the crowd of civilians asleep. According to the live video from the ship, two have been killed, and 31 injured. Al Jazeera has just confirmed the numbers."

3. Peaceful eh :rolleyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

These people were warned several times, Commandos came onto a ship and were violently attacked by Turks who have a neck, let me see oppression of the Kurds,Genocide...

Then Rent a mob in Istanbul..

Dont be fooled by the lies it is a propaganda stunt and also upping the numbers of dead let me see a typical pallywood ploy...

Free Gaza Movement = Jumped up Middle class twats and direct and indirect sponsors of Hamas...

Simple bring the "aid" Terrorist supplies to Israel let it be checked and then trucked there.

Also Israel since the blockcade of the terrorist enclave has sent 1 Million tonnes of aid and last week Hamas burned several UN camps to the ground.

Oppressed people, Yes by themselves...

BlaasForRafa

dlofnep wrote: »

it's not convenient.

You've swallowed Israeli propaganda, without once hearing eye-witness descriptions of what occurred, and without seeing a full unedited video from start to end.

You seem to swallow palestinian and iranian propoganda as a source, the IDF is the only reliable source of information so far for this operation.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You seem to swallow palestinian and iranian propoganda as a source, the IDF is the only reliable source of information so far for this operation.

The IDF are well known liars, and have as much crediblity as Iran or Hamas. It is laughable to suggest otherwise.

Ardent

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Fair play to the Israelis for holding back. They didn't start the killing until the protestors fought back with sticks. Usually, when facing Palestinians, they start the killing as soon as they are looked direct in the eye.So they actually showed restraint.

I sense a lot of anti-semetic hatred in you.

omega666

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You seem to swallow palestinian and iranian propoganda as a source, the IDF is the only reliable source of information so far for this operation.

The IDF have possibly the most untrustworth press office in the world . Fact!
We have seen it all before and it just shows your opions are not worth the keyboard they are typed from if your trying to claim they are!

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You seem to swallow palestinian and iranian propoganda as a source, the IDF is the only reliable source of information so far for this operation.

Since when has the IDF been a reliable source for anything?

Scofflaw

Ardent wrote: »

I sense a lot of anti-semetic hatred in you.

Time for a new warning to posters participating in this thread - don't do the above. If a poster starts ranting about Jews, or genuinely displaying anti-Semitism, report them and they'll be banned.

If not - as in the above case, where the first poster hasn't even mentioned Jews - don't try this common debate-closing ad hominem, because then you'll be banned. This is a first offence, so it's a warning - subsequent examples will not be tolerated.

Also, please learn to spell it properly.

moderately,
Scofflaw

alastair

wes wrote: »

Again, this is irrelevant to the current discussion, and I have said my piece already.

It's relevant when you mistakenly claim that it impacts on the current situation. The IDF could have legally stopped the ships in Gaza's territorial waters. You don't want to propogate misinformation, do you?

dlofnep

Roibead wrote: »

1. Check International Law it was not Breached..

Yes it was.

BlaasForRafa

Remy13 wrote: »

they were being boarded in international waters which is an act of piracy and they had every right to respond violently to repel these attackers even if it's the IDF. the Israelis are in the wrong which ever way you slice it.

The Israeli commandos went in with paintball guns with pepper spray rounds and shotguns with beanbag rounds specifically so that civilian casualties would be provided. All previous boardings had gone quietly so they weren't to know that they would be attacked by pumped up, maniacal "aid workers" who tried to take their weapons and kill them. Once threatened the Commandos had to defend themselves.

My personal opinion is that Israel should have used other means to bring the Marmara to a stop without boarding in that manner. But the ones that attacked the commandos bear a large portion of the responsibility for the deaths, they were lying in wait for the commandos and they should have considered what the end result would be of what they were going to do...or perhaps they did consider and were ok with being "martyrs for the cause", who knows.