Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

OhNoYouDidn't

Ardent wrote: »

I sense a lot of anti-semetic hatred in you.

Grow up.

Interesting legal opinion in the Guardian from a Research Fellow in University of Lancaster School of Law and a former British Ambassador.

"A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution."

----
Actual legal opinion from an international law specialist and former diplomat. Trumps the ibots I think.

alastair

Roibead wrote: »

1. Check International Law it was not Breached.

Oh dear. Yes it was - refer to the linked laws in this thread and come back when you've educated yourself.

Roibead

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes it was.

Please show me where exactly facts please facts !

OhNoYouDidn't

Roibead wrote: »

1. Check International Law it was not Breached....

Christ on a Honda, are you for real?

orourkeda

Roibead wrote: »

Most people in this country are anti-semetic.

Actually Ireland is by far one of the worse sesspits for it, example Michael Martin..

IDF are credible as for example in the last incursion into Gaza they dropped millions of leaflets to tell people to leave certain areas, rang buildings what other army would do that to avoid civilan deaths.

Firearms found onboard the turkish ship yep peaceful they got what they deserved again Turks dont make me laugh... oh lets go and kill thousands of kurds.... get over yourselves

What is your basis for calling an Irish Government Minster an Anti-Semite.

(p.s I'm not a FF supporter)

dlofnep

Roibead wrote: »

Most people in this country are anti-semetic.

No they are not. Don't be ridiculous.

Roibead wrote: »

IDF are credible as for example in the last incursion into Gaza they dropped millions of leaflets to tell people to leave certain areas, rang buildings what other army would do that to avoid civilan deaths.

But yet, they still managed to slaughter over 1000 civilians? Credible my hole. Just like, they said they didn't use white phosphorus illegally, which has be found to be a lie.

Roibead wrote: »

Firearms found onboard the turkish ship yep peaceful they got what they deserved again Turks dont make me laugh... oh lets go and kill thousands of kurds.... get over yourselves

There was no firearms found on the ships. The only firearms on the ship was Israeli firearms.

OhNoYouDidn't

Roibead wrote: »

Please show me where exactly facts please facts !

See my post two above from an international law professor and former British diplomat.

No doubt he is soon to become an anti-semetic Hamas mouthpiece....

Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't, Roibead - pack it in. Roibead in particular - either stop chucking the term "anti-Semitic" around or lose posting privileges.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

orourkeda

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Grow up.

Interesting legal opinion in the Guardian from a Research Fellow in University of Lancaster School of Law and a former British Ambassador.

"A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution."

----
Actual legal opinion from an international law specialist and former diplomat. Trumps the ibots I think.

What happens if neither come to pass.

Is there any form of reproach beyond the two that you've mentioned. It seems pretty clear from what you've said that if they are found to have dome anything "illegal" they are either murderers or war criminals. What are the chances that they would be tried as such

dlofnep

Roibead wrote: »

Please show me where exactly facts please facts !

Are you suggesting that the EU is wrong?

The President of the European Parliament, Jerzy Buzek called it "an unjustified attack" and "a clear and unacceptable breach of international law, especially the fourth Geneva Convention"

Or our own Government?

"The Minister for Foreign Affairs . . . must make it clear that any assault on the Rachel Corrie would be regarded as a hostile act against Ireland and a clear breach of international law that could not be ignored by this country,"

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

they were lying in wait for the commandos and they should have considered what the end result would be of what they were going to do...or perhaps they did consider and were ok with being "martyrs for the cause", who knows.

The soldiers boarded the ship illegally. There was no-one 'lying in wait' - they were on the deck of a ship, being observed/filmed from IDF boats and helicopters (as well as on-board journalists). It would be a pretty new departure for jihadists to employ the deckchair as their weapon of martyrdom.

The sole blame for what transpired was down to Israeli incompetence in handling the situation (in an illegal fashion for extra demerit).

IrishTonyO

Ardent wrote: »

Regardless, video footage that shows aid workers setting upon the soldiers like maniacs.

There are links in the previous pages here where gun fire is heard before any IDF board. Also one or more dead and more injured and bloody decks and doorways.

wes

alastair wrote: »

It's relevant when you mistakenly claim that it impacts on the current situation. The IDF could have legally stopped the ships in Gaza's territorial waters. You don't want to propogate misinformation, do you?

I haven't propagted any mis-leading information. Just an opinion based on Israels various claims.

alastair

wes wrote: »

I haven't propagted any mis-leading information. Just an opinion based on Israels various claims.

Fair enough. The treaty tells a different story.

IrishTonyO

Roibead wrote: »

Please show me where exactly facts please facts !

its been pointed out in many posts on here already go back and read some and you will see the references

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The Israeli commandos went in with paintball guns with pepper spray rounds and shotguns with beanbag rounds specifically so that civilian casualties would be provided. All previous boardings had gone quietly so they weren't to know that they would be attacked by pumped up, maniacal "aid workers" who tried to take their weapons and kill them. Once threatened the Commandos had to defend themselves.

But the fundamental problem with that logic that simply won't go away is that the IDF were illegally trespassing on a Turkish boat and the owners/passangers on the ship were well within their legal rights to defend their ship from the assault.

All other assumptions and opinions must take this into account.

BlaasForRafa

IrishTonyO wrote: »

There are links in the previous pages here where gun fire is heard before any IDF board. Also one or more dead and more injured and bloody decks and doorways.

warning shots across the bows are a common way for navies to stop other ships, normally they first fire 1 rifle calibre round, then an 8-10 round burst and then a burst from a 50 cal machine gun to try and persuade ships to stop. Obviously in this case the Marmara didn't stop.

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

warning shots across the bows are a common way for navies to stop other ships, normally they first fire 1 rifle calibre round, then an 8-10 round burst and then a burst from a 50 cal machine gun to try and persuade ships to stop. Obviously in this case the Marmara didn't stop.

Why should it have?

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

warning shots across the bows are a common way for navies to stop other ships, normally they first fire 1 rifle calibre round, then an 8-10 round burst and then a burst from a 50 cal machine gun to try and persuade ships to stop. Obviously in this case the Marmara didn't stop.

Those shots killed people according to the guys on the floatilla.

Finally, the IDF had no right to be on the boat, and there actions were illegal.

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

... Also, please learn to spell it properly.

Do we get a little more leeway if our ad hominem attacks are correctly spelled?

alastair

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

warning shots across the bows are a common way for navies to stop other ships, normally they first fire 1 rifle calibre round, then an 8-10 round burst and then a burst from a 50 cal machine gun to try and persuade ships to stop. Obviously in this case the Marmara didn't stop.

It's not common for navies to stop ships in intenational waters - the only exceptions are for piracy or slave-trading. Otherwise it's illegal. The flavour of challenge is irrelevant.

Pride Fighter

Facebook group created for the purpose of expelling the Israeli ambassador http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=131592446856082&v=app_2373072738#!/group.php?gid=131592446856082&v=wall

Personally I'd agree with that position, firstly because they used stolen Irish passports to murder 2 months ago and secondly because of yesterdays cowardly act.

JonathanAnon

Just listening to Mark Daly speaking to the Deputy Israeli Ambassador. "Your actions would cause a problem for any democracy"... Considering he's in the Senate, I hardly think democracy is the highest priority on his agenda.

I dont like the way that he is using his position, as a member of the Senate, as some sort of badge as proof of his good intentions. He is on that boat as Mark Daly, individual person... He was NOT sent there by the Irish government and does not represent us. Just goes to show how useless the Senate is, that he can take time off to go on these sort of crusades..

Hopefully when FG get in to government, good people like Fergal Quinn, David Norris and Shane Ross will be kept as Government advisors, and the rest of these wasters will be dropped.

Byron85

Proof that the Israelis are claiming that there were guns on board:

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37434486/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

omega666

wes wrote: »

Those shots killed people according to the guys on the floatilla.

Finally, the IDF had no right to be on the boat, and there actions were illegal.

Maybe thats how it all started, the warning shots from the IDF accidently hit one of the AID workers onboard,
It created panic among the AID workers and seeing the armed commandos
droping down on the ship they persumed they were under attack and were going to kill them so started attacking them as they landed in wild panic. queue the commandos getting paniced and shooting 10 people.

yoshytoshy

At this stage ,I'd love if the turkish sent a fleet of naval vessels ,to escort the flotilla out of isreal.

IrishTonyO

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

warning shots across the bows are a common way for navies to stop other ships, normally they first fire 1 rifle calibre round, then an 8-10 round burst and then a burst from a 50 cal machine gun to try and persuade ships to stop. Obviously in this case the Marmara didn't stop.

And warning shots cause people to be injured and one killed and blood over the decks?

alastair

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Proof that the Israelis are claiming that there were guns on board:





http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37434486/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

They're talking about themselves (the soldiers) - not the passengers.

gandalf

Interesting reading about some of the passengers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141720.ece

Not exactly foaming at the mouth terrorists and trouble makers that the IDF propaganda machine are making them out to be.