Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Byron85

alastair wrote: »

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

They're talking about themselves (the soldiers) - not the passengers.

Apologies about that. I must have gotten confused with the following line from the same article.

"They beat us with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us."

Selected

Has a new date for a protest/march on the Israeli Embassy been set for the weekend? Determined to travel up for such an event.
Anyone?

wes

omega666 wrote: »

Maybe thats how it all started, the warning shots from the IDF accidently hit one of the AID workers onboard,
It created panic among the AID workers and seeing the armed commandos
droping down on the ship they persumed they were under attack and were going to kill them so started attacking them as they landed in wild panic. queue the commandos getting paniced and shooting 10 people.

Yeah, thats possible, still all the deaths are on the IDF, as they has no business on the boat.

Rev Hellfire

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Interesting legal opinion in the Guardian from a Research Fellow in University of Lancaster School of Law and a former British Ambassador.

"A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare....

Now thats the sort of authority I can accept when it comes to determining if the the Israeli actions where legally valid or not. Clearly it seems it wasn't, not that it changes much to be honest with regards to the validity of the commandos to use lethal force.

Byron85

To be honest, the whole thing is starting to become more and more convoluted. Hopefully things will start to become more clear in the next day or two. Right now though it's just a case of rapid-fire recriminations.

Ardent

deadtiger wrote: »

Interesting reading about some of the passengers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141720.ece

Not exactly foaming at the mouth terrorists and trouble makers that the IDF propaganda machine are making them out to be.

Interesting reading. Of course you're right - they weren't looking for trouble at all:

Minutes later she added: “We are now surrounded by Israeli warships with helicopters circulating and following the convoy of ships heading for Gaza still. We will not be stopping unless we are forcibly made to do so.”

gandalf

Ardent wrote: »

Interesting reading. Of course you're right - they weren't looking for trouble at all:

Given that quite a few of them had been on these aid voyages before they probably expected that they be turned away when they reached actual territorial waters by the Israeli Navy as would be their (the Israeli Authorities) right.

They did not expect an illegal boarding followed up with lethal force that did transpire.

Why did the IDF change its normal modus operandi from previous interceptions?

Why did they take the risky move of landing troops on the decks of this ship at night when a daylight boarding would have been a more appropriate action against a ship carrying humanitarian aid?

Was it to teach the people behind the Humanitarian Aid Ships a lesson?

Why did they make the stupid move of carrying out these actions in International Waters leaving themselves open to accusations of an illegal operation?

Why did they attack a flagged vessel of one of their closest allies in that part of the world?

Did they not realise that it could put their good relations with Turkey at risk?

Was it punishment because of a thawing of relationships between Turkey and Iran?

jank

On the legality on the boarding

A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution".

From the guardian.

kiffer

So... They can't board foreign non-pirate non-slave ship in a time of peace and if it was a time of war then it's a war crime?
What makes it a war crime and not just a military action in time of war?
Because they are civilians?
Would fighting back cause you to lose your civilian status?
The use of tear gas is banned in war, right?

Is Israel currently officially at war?
With Palastine?
Can you be at war with out recognising the other country as a state?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

IrishTonyO

Scien wrote: »

Egypt lift blockade?
Rafah crossing is open.

At least one piece of good news the in whole sorry affair so far

gandalf

kiffer wrote: »

So... They can't board foreign non-pirate non-slave ship in a time of peace and if it was a time of war then it's a war crime?
What makes it a war crime and not just a military action in time of war?
Because they are civilians?
Would fighting back cause you to lose your civilian status?
The use of tear gas is banned in war, right?

Is Israel currently officially at war?
With Palastine?
Can you be at war with out recognising the other country as a state?

Yes but the vessel was a Turkish flagged ship in International Waters, as far as I am aware Israel are not at war with Turkey (well yet!).

halkar

deadtiger wrote: »

Interesting reading about some of the passengers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141720.ece

Not exactly foaming at the mouth terrorists and trouble makers that the IDF propaganda machine are making them out to be.

Snip from above:
-- Hatice Çorluk, whose son Fevzi Çorluk, 24, was on the ship, said she had expected the Israeli army’s response and accused Turkey of abandoning those on board. Neslihan Üstündağ, Fevzi Çorluk’s sister, said those on the ship had called for help many times during the night before the attack occurred. “But Turkey did not do anything. It could have sent a ship to help them.” --

I posted below on conspiracy forum which is getting a lot of spin in Turkish media since yesterday.

Turkey rocket attack 'kills six' at naval base, The attack took place at about 0400 local time.

Not much here but here is the link from Bbc

Military Asault on the ships started at 0430 .

Naval base is the nearest to Israel.
Both happened within 30 minutes of each other.

And this :
Inside Iraq - Is Israel helping Iraq's Kurds

The Israeli protest outside of Turkish embasy have PKK written on one of the banners.

Smell of fish anyone.

wes

Scien wrote: »

Egypt lift blockade?
Rafah crossing is open.

Great news, with some luck, they will leave it open.

wes

halkar wrote: »

Smell of fish anyone.

Certainly has the stench of hypocrisy.

Rev Hellfire

halkar wrote: »

Turkey rocket attack 'kills six' at naval base, The attack took place at about 0400 local time.

Not much here but here is the link from Bbc

Smells of coincidence, nothing more.

BlaasForRafa

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Smells of coincidence, nothing more.

Too tenuous to have any credibilty.

Lets hope the Egyptians search everything going through Rafah, it would be just like Hamas to use this chaos to sneak grad rockets into Gaza.

2kool4skool

Problem is as stated above that Egypt will not want Hamas members travelling freely in and out of Egypt, particularly at a time when sympathy for Hamas and disapproval of Egypt's neutral stance towards Israel will be at fever pitch. Israel also will threaten Egypt if it does not close the crossing point (but at the same time it wont want to lose another potential ally).

To put it mildly Israel has made a horlocks of the situation, it knows it and it will do anything now to try to spin it as best it can (including holding the passengers from the ship in question for up to a week to try and reduce the impact of their version of events in the world media).

What is the point of the UN calling upon Israel to hold an independent enquiry. Surely that is a contradiction in itself. A Turkish enquiry (by reason of the ship being Turkish flagged in international waters) can also not be said to be independent given that all the victims were Turkish. Clearly only a UN enquiry could be independent but Israel will not co-operate with same even if the US pressurizes it to do so.

dlofnep

"Egypt opened its border with the Gaza Strip on Tuesday to allow humanitarian and medical aid to enter the Strip.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6502H820100601

Looks like the Flotilla has made an impact. At last, Palestinians will have the aid they need and deserve. This is a welcome change.

prinz

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Lets hope the Egyptians search everything going through Rafah, it would be just like Hamas to use this chaos to sneak grad rockets into Gaza.

Absolutely. They'd never waste an opportunity like this.

BlaasForRafa

This has already been posted on another thread, this thread proliferation is getting beyond a joke at this stage.

dlofnep

There's 88 pages in the other thread. Apologies if I missed one of the 1000's of posts. A moderator can merge this with the other thread if required.

weepee

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Lets hope the Egyptians search everything going through Rafah, it would be just like Hamas to use this chaos to sneak grad rockets into Gaza.

This is an opportunity for the Egyptians to undermine Israels vice grip on Gaza, alas, Egyptian interests dont include the Palestinians.

BlaasForRafa

weepee wrote: »

This is an opportunity for the Egyptians to undermine Israels vice grip on Gaza, alas, Egyptian interests dont include the Palestinians.

Egypt had control of gaza from 1948-67, they need closer ties with the palestinians like they need an extra hole in the head

Nody

prinz wrote: »

Absolutely. They'd never waste an opportunity like this.

Yes because they surely need the gate crossing to get missiles in; not like there are any tunnels or anything they could have used instead :rolleyes:.

Also the funny thing is Israel is forcing any of the people they kidnapped to sign a paper saying they can not sue the Israeli state for what they did or they will have to face court in Israel. Now this should be a fun court case to explain how kidnapped people outside the national border on an other nation’s ship have committed crimes against Israeli law. I can see this one going down in the books as the most lost court case to date and is pure scaremongering.

weepee

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Egypt had control of gaza from 1948-67, they need closer ties with the Palestinians like they need an extra hole in the head

That is true. Egypt made peace with Israel after the war in Sinai, the Palestinians were left to Jerusalem's mercy.

Byron85

Al Jazeera's Issam Zaatar has given an interview to Al Jazeera English in which he says that many of the detainees from the boat held in Israel were told to sign papers saying they had "broken the law." He said those who didn't sign were told they would be imprisoned for several days.

Despite everything the brass neck of the Israelis remains very much intact.

mrboswell

Nijmegen wrote: »

Hamas shells innocent Israelis on a regular basis. What the hell is Israel supposed to do, let them do whatever? They're at war.

GET OFF THE LAND THAT THEY STOLE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Byron85

Issam Zaatar, an Al Jazeera cameraman -- one of several Al Jazeera staff who were on board the flotilla -- spoke with our Arabic channel earlier this morning about the Israeli raid. He describes the moments after commandos landed on the ship:

I was filming, he [an Israeli solider] ran after me with an electric stick [stun gun]. He could not catch me. One of his colleagues hit my hand from behind with a stick [stun gun]. My camera fell down. He ran to crush the camera with his feet. I told him, don’t break my camera. If you want the tapes, I will give them to you. I told him these are media equipment. They had no limits. They used rubber bullets. They used tear bombs. It was an unbelievable scene.

Again, the Israelis are doing themselves no favours as it seems that a complete media blackout was the aim, which has obviously failed.

Floppybits

Nody wrote: »

Yes because they surely need the gate crossing to get missiles in; not like there are any tunnels or anything they could have used instead :rolleyes:.

Also the funny thing is Israel is forcing any of the people they kidnapped to sign a paper saying they can not sue the Israeli state for what they did or they will have to face court in Israel. Now this should be a fun court case to explain how kidnapped people outside the national border on an other nation’s ship have committed crimes against Israeli law. I can see this one going down in the books as the most lost court case to date and is pure scaremongering.

i was wondering about this, surely what the Israeli's did is kidnapping? I mean the board a boat in international waters, they shoot innocent civilians and the procede to take the captured vessels to Israel. To me the only people committing the crimes are Israel and to me they should be hauled to the courts for what they did.

I am sick at the response of the UN and US to this, a harder line needs to be taken with Israel. Can people not see the similarities between the actions of Israel and the actions of the nazi's against the Jewish people in WW2.