Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

FlutterinBantam

wes wrote: »

Why are Israel's supporters so slow to condemn the illegal siege, and the murder of these activists?



.

Murder!

What murder?

FlutterinBantam

IrishTonyO wrote: »

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences", said Brian Cowen in the Dail this evening.
On TV3 News now they are saying all the people detained are denying Israeli claims that IDF were fired on first and that there were no weapons on the ships.

You sound surprised?:D

IrishTonyO

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Murder!

What murder?

Let me see I reckon he means the murder of the people on board the ship, your mind reading skills only cover the relatives??

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Poor attempt to smear these people. There good people who were trying to help other people. Your attempts at smeaing them are nothing short of disgusting.

He's closer to the truth than you'd like I'm guessing. The passengers of the marmara seem to be a mix of naive right-on do-gooders, socialist worker party types, hardline anti-israeli turks and arab and iranian journalists.

What happened onboard was a pity but they should not have attacked the commandos, what did they think would happen.

wes

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Murder!

What murder?

The murder of innocent people on board the flotilla by the IDF.

FlutterinBantam

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Let me see I reckon he means the murder of the people on board the ship, your mind reading skills only cover the relatives??

Murder... well I know the definition of murder.

Do you?

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Murder!

What murder?

An Israeli spokesperson stated a few days ago before the ships even set sail that he "hoped that the world would understand Israel's response". Sounds ominous, does it not? 19 people killed FB - Surely you don't believe that all were justified?

Foxtrol

IrishTonyO wrote: »

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences", said Brian Cowen in the Dail this evening.

I can hear the men, women and children of Israel quaking in their boots after that. What are we honestly going to do? Not vote for them in the next Eurovision?

IrishTonyO

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

He's closer to the truth than you'd like I'm guessing. The passengers of the marmara seem to be a mix of naive right-on do-gooders, socialist worker party types, hardline anti-israeli turks and arab and iranian journalists.

What happened onboard was a pity but they should not have attacked the commandos, what did they think would happen.

How do you make these allegations? You know all 600 people that were on board the first ship, or are just just making blind assumptions?

Ardent

IrishTonyO wrote: »

On TV3 News now they are saying all the people detained are denying Israeli claims that IDF were fired on first and that there were no weapons on the ships.

Ha! This despite video footage out there clearly showing knives and metal bars being used to attack IDF soldiers on the head ship.

Silverado

Roibead wrote: »

1. Check International Law it was not Breached.

2. Clear and Blatant Lies on the Free Gaza site Quote "Under darkness of night, Israeli commandoes dropped from a helicopter onto the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began to shoot the moment their feet hit the deck. They fired directly into the crowd of civilians asleep. According to the live video from the ship, two have been killed, and 31 injured. Al Jazeera has just confirmed the numbers."

3. Peaceful eh :rolleyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

These people were warned several times, Commandos came onto a ship and were violently attacked by Turks who have a neck, let me see oppression of the Kurds,Genocide...

Then Rent a mob in Istanbul..

Dont be fooled by the lies it is a propaganda stunt and also upping the numbers of dead let me see a typical pallywood ploy...

Obviously you are not familiar with the UN Law of the Sea Convention. Let me quote

Article110, Right of visit

1. Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by treaty, a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96, is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting that:
(a) the ship is engaged in piracy;
(b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
(c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting.

Since the ship boarded was in international waters the IDF are clearly in breach of this Convention unless they can prove any of the above.

The video footage also needs careful viewing - can you be sure that it is genuine. The windage indicated by the flags in the video doesn't look like that made by a large helicopter flying overhead. The downdraft from the blades of a chopper at close range feels like a Force 12 storm. This could have been easily staged at a quayside. Even the camera angle is wrong for a RIB which would be at water level.

We still have not heard from the passengers and crew who were abducted by the IDF.

IrishTonyO

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Murder... well I know the definition of murder.

Do you?

Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of another human being with intent.
and anyway trying to muddy the waters with definitions of words etc doesn't add anything to the thread

paulaa

alastair wrote: »

That, and the treaty agreement it got the PA to sign up to in '95, and which still stands as a legal interim arrangement.

See what the PA got for their agreements with Israel. Abbas completely undermined, unfettered settlement building in the West Bank and into East Jerusalem continuing as we speak/type. No freedom of movement for Palestinians, families being evicted from homes they have lived in for generations and Jewish families moved into them.

Israel's agreements are not worth the paper they're written on. They have no word.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What happened onboard was a pity but they should not have attacked the commandos, what did they think would happen.

The commando should not have attacked the ship, what did they think would happen? The IDF are at fault here, and all the crap coming Israels way is well deserved.

Foxtrol

IrishTonyO wrote: »

How do you make these allegations? You know all 600 people that were on board the first ship, or are just just making blind assumptions?

I would say that would be a decent enough cross section of who I'd expect to be on a trip like that. Its hardly Tony and Joan from down the road with their kids on summer holiday. Do you have a better idea of their background?

Kid Curry

IrishTonyO wrote: »

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences", said Brian Cowen in the Dail this evening.
On TV3 News now they are saying all the people detained are denying Israeli claims that IDF were fired on first and that there were no weapons on the ships.

What consequences can we impose on Israel? Cowen and Martin are making fools of themselves.

Ardent

Silverado wrote: »

Obviously you are not familiar with the UN Law of the Sea Convention. Let me quote

Article110, Right of visit

1. Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by treaty, a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96, is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting that:
(a) the ship is engaged in piracy;
(b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
(c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting.

Since the ship boarded was in international waters the IDF are clearly in breach of this Convention unless they can prove any of the above.

The video footage also needs careful viewing - can you be sure that it is genuine. The windage indicated by the flags in the video doesn't look like that made by a large helicopter flying overhead. The downdraft from the blades of a chopper at close range feels like a Force 12 storm. This could have been easily staged at a quayside. Even the camera angle is wrong for a RIB which would be at water level.

We still have not heard from the passengers and crew who were abducted by the IDF.

LOL at all the conspiracy theories suddenly surfacing in the last few pages of this thread!

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

An Israeli spokesperson stated a few days ago before the ships even set sail that he "hoped that the world would understand Israel's response". Sounds ominous, does it not? 19 people killed FB - Surely you don't believe that all were justified?

Of course I don't believe that if the IDF went in and shot 19 people just like that, would be justified.

What actually happened? let's wait and find out.

There are conflicting reports, spin on both sides, murder is the premeditated killing of a person.

What actually happened is the crux!!!

Were these 600 ornithologists?

Ardent

Kid Curry wrote: »

What consequences can we impose on Israel? Cowen and Martin are making fools of themselves.

Cowen will stop drinking Israeli beer.

Kid Curry

Anyone know the name of the girl who was on the Irish flotilla, seemed to be one of the spokes persons, mid twenies, bit of an american accent. Did she get out ok?

stackerman

All too often in life

The abused, become the worst type of abuser

Have the Israelis learnt nothing !

SAD

IrishTonyO

Foxtrol wrote: »

I would say that would be a decent enough cross section of who I'd expect to be on a trip like that. Its hardly Tony and Joan from down the road with their kids on summer holiday. Do you have a better idea of their background?

Noble peace prize winners, politicians, an ex UN secretary general, peace activists, doctors, professors..... etc. etc. and just decent people trying to make the lives of the palestinians a little better.

alastair

Silverado wrote: »

The video footage also needs careful viewing - can you be sure that it is genuine. The windage indicated by the flags in the video doesn't look like that made by a large helicopter flying overhead. The downdraft from the blades of a chopper at close range feels like a Force 12 storm. This could have been easily staged at a quayside. Even the camera angle is wrong for a RIB which would be at water level.

Just like they did with the moon landing!

Seriously?...

alastair

paulaa wrote: »

See what the PA got for their agreements with Israel. Abbas completely undermined, unfettered settlement building in the West Bank and into East Jerusalem continuing as we speak/type. No freedom of movement for Palestinians, families being evicted from homes they have lived in for generations and Jewish families moved into them.

Israel's agreements are not worth the paper they're written on. They have no word.

You don't like Israel's record - thats clear. That doesn't remove from the fact of the treaty and the legality of Israel military controlling Gazan waters. The PA might have signed up for a rotten deal, but sign they did.

IrishTonyO

alastair wrote: »

You don't like Israel's record - thats clear. That doesn't remove from the fact of the treaty and the legality of Israel military controlling Gazan waters. The PA might have signed up for a rotten deal, but sign they did.

a total red herring this happened in international waters

sensibleken

Silverado wrote: »

We still have not heard from the passengers and crew who were abducted by the IDF.

we are starting to

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm

"The captain... told us 'They are firing randomly, they are breaking the windows and entering inside. So you should get out of here as soon as possible'. That was our last conversation with him."

alastair

IrishTonyO wrote: »

a total red herring this happened in international waters

Its no red herring - I'm responding to the notion that it wouldn't have been different legally if the boarding had taken place in Gazan waters.

Foxtrol

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Noble peace prize winners, politicians, an ex UN secretary general, peace activists, doctors, professors..... etc. etc. and just decent people trying to make the lives of the palestinians a little better.

Yes add them to the others mentioned earlier or do you know for sure none of the others were on board? I'm going to make an assumption that the IDF video of them being attacked is real. I sincerely doubt that the ex UN secretary general with his Nobel peace prize winning buddies were attacking the commando's with knives, slingshots and iron bars as they boarded.

As I said earlier its sad that like in many protests here the minority who look for trouble find it and innocent people get caught in the crossfire. (Again I know Israel had no jurisdiction in this case and that their response was too heavy handed but this would have been avoided if the protest stayed peaceful)

sensibleken

Foxtrol wrote: »

but this would have been avoided if the protest stayed peaceful

it is difficult to stay peacefull when soldiers from a country who have a reputation for killing peacefull resisters board your ship in the night from military helicopters supported by several armed vessels surrounding yours

Archie D Bunker

sensibleken wrote: »

it is difficult to stay peacefull when soldiers from a country who have a reputation for killing peacefull resisters board your ship in the night from military helicopters supported by several armed vessels surrounding yours

So what kind of a peace activist are you if you can't stay peaceful yourself?
I mean, if it is ok for a peace activist to become brutally violent when he feels a threat, how come an Israeli soldier is criticized if he shoots those he perceives as a threat?