Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

I Drink It Up!

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Well no, it was piracy and criminal. The ships were not military ships.

So why were they carrying arms?

paulaa

alastair wrote: »

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ARTICLE XII
Arrangements for Security and Public Order

1. In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Council shall establish a strong police force as set out in Article XIV below. Israel shall continue to carry the responsibility for defense against external threats, including the responsibility for protecting the Egyptian and Jordanian borders, and for defense against external threats from the sea and from the air, as well as the responsibility for overall security of Israelis and Settlements, for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order, and will have all the powers to take the steps necessary to meet this responsibility.

Thanks for that. Have you read how many articles in that Israel has broken ? Very interesting

youcrazyjesus!

Foxtrol wrote: »

And expect the pirates not to defend themselves? Again Im not saying Israel was right in what they did but I can understand how an 18 or 19 year old commando would have had to use force if they feared for his or her lifes (some of them are still critically injured). I am agreeing with you that Israel came at this situation completely wrong but the protesters escalated the situation which led to these sad deaths

They weren't protesting anything. They were bring humanitarian aid to an impoverished people. They had no weapons and no violent intentions towards anybody. If you go out to get the bus tonight and somebody punches you in the face, you struggle and he pulls a gun and shoots you, nobody, at least nobody who isn't in some way insane, would ever suggest it was your fault for "escalating" it. It's totally illogic and wrong. The problem is with the aggressor, not with the defender. As always, in law and in basic common sense. Stop trying to stretch things. It's mindless.

gandalf

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you believe that if a Garda dressed in full uniform, just over the boarder, tried to move you off the road you would be fully entitled to assault him to the point were he feared for his life and thought it was necessary to use his baton in order to protect himself?

He has no authority over the border and his uniform has no meaning.

This is a very flawed comparison. You are comparing hitting someone with a baton to blowing someones brains out with a pistol or Automatic rifle.

The Israeli soldiers should not have been on that boat. The protesters tried to repel illegal boarders to the boat (which tbh was not clever given the history of the IDF and the fact the Soldiers were armed for lethal confrontation). The Soldiers shot down those protesters when they had no right being there.

yoshytoshy

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

So why were they carrying arms?

The only arms on the ships where the ones holding sticks.

youcrazyjesus!

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

So why were they carrying arms?

They weren't.

gandalf

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

So why were they carrying arms?

What arms. Can you list them. According to the Deputy Israeli Ambassador to Ireland they were sophisticated

youcrazyjesus!

yoshytoshy wrote: »

The only arms on the ships where the ones holding sticks.

When they realised Israeli commandos were there to murder them they were entitled to pick up whatever they could to defend their lives and their ships from piracy.

I Drink It Up!

wes wrote: »

The commando should not have attacked the ship, what did they think would happen? The IDF are at fault here, and all the crap coming Israels way is well deserved.

The IDF saved lives.

The ships were carrying arms.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

Those arms would be used againt Israel who in turn retaliate.

Thats why they were so determined to run the blockade. Thats why they declined to have the ships inspected.

Most of the people on board were of course innocents, totally caught up in a HAMAS/****ZBOLLAH/IDF game. Their well meaning ignorance has been appropriated by the above parties.

As for Mr Erdogan, friend of the War Criminal Izetbegovic, butcher of Kurds, denier of the Armenian Genocide, destroyer of Secular Turkey, imprisoner of 15 year old girls, he can rot.

yoshytoshy

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

When they realised Israeli commandos were there to murder them they were entitled to pick up whatever they could to defend their lives and their ships from piracy.

Fair play to them for sticking up for themselves ,christ knows most people would be frightened if soldiers started swinging down from helicopters at sea.
I know I'd have been pretty scared and in the dark ,god knows how the flotilla passengers felt.

the_syco

IrishTonyO wrote: »

German witness on board reports coming out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm

When I read

German pro-Palestinian activist

any hope of an unbiased report went out the window.

First, you know, the soldiers tried to disperse, but in the end when they were shot at, you know when there was shooting... from the other side, there's no other way than turning from paint ball to live ammunition.

I find this quote from the captain to be odd. Apart from the IDF who said they were shot at, this is the first time I've seen someone else say that the IDF were shot at.

paulaa wrote: »

They have lost their only ally in the area, Turkey.

To be honest, I don't give a flying f**k if Israel looses some friends. What does worry me, however, is that if this incident turns the Turkish people against America somehow, and Israel becomes Americas only airfield in the ME, then Israel becomes stronger, which is bad. A cornered rat is said to go for your throat when attacked

karma_ wrote: »

so brutal violence should be met with deadly violence?

Nope. But when outnumbered, brutal violence is often answered by overkill.

=-=

By the way, could someone answer me this: if the IDF had waited until an hour after the sun came up, where would the ship be?

sensibleken

Foxtrol wrote: »

That is unbelievably hypocritical. So its ok for the peace protesters to attack commandos when they feel a threat but not for the commandos to protect themselves when they are under attack? (If the commandos were using stun guns and rubber bullets as reported by those on the boats then their intent was not solely to kill the protesters)

It really is unfortunate that so many protests are tarnished by those who seek any situation to provoke an authoritative figure.

no it isnt. the israeli military initiated the violence by boarding the crafts in international waters fully armed when no violation had been commited by the aid ships

I Drink It Up!

deadtiger wrote: »

What arms. Can you list them. According to the Deputy Israeli Ambassador to Ireland they were sophisticated

Ask yourself one question: why did the Israelis not just sink the ships?

dlofnep

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The IDF saved lives.

No, the IDF took lives.

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The ships were carrying arms.

No they weren't. Where is your evidence for this?

dlofnep

the_syco wrote: »

any hope of an unbiased report went out the window.

Who else do you expect to be on a humanitarian mission, destined for Gaza?

Foxtrol

deadtiger wrote: »

He has no authority over the border and his uniform has no meaning.

This is a very flawed comparison. You are comparing hitting someone with a baton to blowing someones brains out with a pistol or Automatic rifle.

The Israeli soldiers should not have been on that boat. The protesters tried to repel illegal boarders to the boat (which tbh was not clever given the history of the IDF and the fact the Soldiers were armed for lethal confrontation). The Soldiers shot down those protesters when they had no right being there.

Yes but does it give you the right to punch him if he tried to move you and still claim to be a "peaceful" protester?

If you want to read again I toned down both sides. I changed the protesters from hundreds to one and from attacking with knives, slingshots, tools, iron bars to punching. I also changed shooting to a baton. Each is dumbed down so in all i think its a fair analogy (much fairer than one about someone breaking into their house)

Ok fine if you want to say they were repelling illegal boarders but I wouldnt be making them out to be all Nobel Peace Prize winners then either. According to protesters they were using rubber bullets and stun guns. This obviously escalated to live rounds when they were being "repelled"

alastair

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you had actually read my previous posts you'd clearly see that I'm not saying that the IDF had a right to do what they did. I am however saying that there is also blood on the hands of the "peaceful" protesters who attacked the commandos.

You can't be a figure of authority, without said authority.

Byron85

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The IDF saved lives.

The ships were carrying arms.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

Those arms would be used againt Israel who in turn retaliate.

Thats why they were so determined to run the blockade. Thats why they declined to have the ships inspected.

Most of the people on board were of course innocents, totally caught up in a HAMAS/****ZBOLLAH/IDF game. Their well meaning ignorance has been appropriated by the above parties.

As for Mr Erdogan, friend of the War Criminal Izetbegovic, butcher of Kurds, denier of the Armenian Genocide, destroyer of Secular Turkey, imprisoner of 15 year old girls, he can rot.

Arms?? What arms?? Show them to us. Prove it. Now.

Wait a second, you can't and neither can the Israelis simply because there were no arms/munitions on board.

gandalf

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The IDF saved lives.

Wrong ! They took lives.

The ships were carrying arms.

List what they had.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

Really thats very judgemental of you.

Those arms would be used againt Israel who in turn retaliate.

Again list those arms please.

Thats why they were so determined to run the blockade. Thats why they declined to have the ships inspected.

They were boarded in International Waters. They hadn't even reached the blockade.

Most of the people on board were of course innocents, totally caught up in a HAMAS/****ZBOLLAH/IDF game. Their well meaning ignorance has been appropriated by the above parties.

Still doesn't take away from the fact they were illegally boarded in International Waters.

As for Mr Erdogan, friend of the War Criminal Izetbegovic, butcher of Kurds, denier of the Armenian Genocide, destroyer of Secular Turkey, imprisoner of 15 year old girls, he can rot.

Still doesn't take away from the fact they were illegally boarded in International Waters.

Thanks for your input thought. It was entirely predictable.

I Drink It Up!

Why did Israel feel such a burning need to take the ships into custody? Why not just exocet them to hell and back??

Nodin

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The IDF saved lives.

The ships were carrying arms.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

Wonderful.

What source do you have for that?

halkar

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Ask yourself one question: why did the Israelis not just sink the ships?

Because they did not have the b@lls to do it. Turkey is not America that would let them get away with something like this.

youcrazyjesus!

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The IDF saved lives.

They murdered people in cold blood. As the IDF has done in the past, thousands upon thousands. They are a terrorist organisation.

The ships were carrying arms.

They weren't and didn't need to. It would have been totally counter productive.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

If this kind of personal abuse is going to be allowed I would say anybody who believes what you believe is a moron.

Those arms would be used againt Israel who in turn retaliate.

Israel plays the role of aggressor and inflicts damage on Palestinians 24/7/365..

Thats why they were so determined to run the blockade. Thats why they declined to have the ships inspected.

They in fact asked for the ships to be inspected but on their own terms and no Israels. Seeing as Israel would rather see kids die of treatable illnesses than give Palestinians a humane existence this was never going to happen.

Most of the people on board were of course innocents, totally caught up in a HAMAS/****ZBOLLAH/IDF game. Their well meaning ignorance has been appropriated by the above parties.

Denis Halliday.

As for Mr Erdogan, friend of the War Criminal Izetbegovic, butcher of Kurds, denier of the Armenian Genocide, destroyer of Secular Turkey, imprisoner of 15 year old girls, he can rot.

Nobody here is supporting him or his viewpoints and crimes.

I Drink It Up!

halkar wrote: »

Because they did not have the b@lls to do it. Turkey is not America that would let them get away with something like this.

Oh really and what would Turkiyes response be? To level a few more villages in the Kurdish territories?

youcrazyjesus!

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Oh really and what would Turkiyes response be? To level a few more villages in the Kurdish territories?

What does this have to do with the murder of innocent people on a humanitarian voyage.

gandalf

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Why did Israel feel such a burning need to take the ships into custody? Why not just exocet them to hell and back??

Because if you sink a flagged ship from a sovereign nation like Turkey who are a member of Nato you are declaring war on them and ergo the whole of Nato.

Not exactly a way to deal with a allied nation.

I Drink It Up!

Does anyone here really think that a flotilla of ships, sponsored by the Islamist Erdogan and his lackies elsewhere, really departed for Gaza with NO military provisions stashed in its hold for use by militant groups in Gaza???

alastair

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

The IDF saved lives.

The ships were carrying arms.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

I'll take the word of the IDF as to the arms being carried. They've even stuck pics of them up at their blog: http://idfspokesperson.com/

Now which of those sophisticated arms do you reckon would be directed at Israel? My vote goes to the angle-grinder disks, but the knifey spooney penknife looks pretty dicey too.

paulaa

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you had actually read my previous posts you'd clearly see that I'm not saying that the IDF had a right to do what they did. I am however saying that there is also blood on the hands of the "peaceful" protesters who attacked the commandos.

I read you posts but I cannot see how you can say people who are being attacked in the middle of the night on the open seas by marines, armed to the teeth, are not entitled to protect themselves. I would not stand there and allow anyone to use gas or any other kind of weapon against me without some kind of resistance and I doubt you would either

dlofnep

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Does anyone here really think that a flotilla of ships, sponsored by the Islamist Erdogan and his lackies elsewhere, really departed for Gaza with NO military provisions stashed in its hold for use by militant groups in Gaza???

Where is your evidence to prove that weapons were unboard?