Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

yoshytoshy

Sand wrote: »

I think the problem is the IDF trusted too much that they would be dealing with only nonviolent, passive resistance and were caught out badly when they were attacked by the mob.

Sorry ,but I'm a bit puzzled as to why independent aid ships were needed in the first place ?
Why did so many people feel the need to supply so many goods ?

walshb

I hope both Irish men are ok and released unharmed, but maybe it will teach them to mind their own ****ing business and stop meddling in the affairs of other countries.

dlofnep

The US has veto'd calls for an international inquiry - stating that they believe that Israel should undertake it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

Any chance of getting an impartial inquiry are out the window.

Sand

@yoshytoshy

Sorry ,but I'm a bit puzzled as to why independent aid ships were needed in the first place ?
Why did so many people feel the need to supply so many goods ?

Its not an actual supply convoy - its a political gesture, designed to bring about confrontation with the IDF for propaganda purposes and to undermine the Israeli blockade against Hamas. That is why the organisers refused to the Israeli proposal to land the goods at an Israeli port, allow the Israelis to inspect them, and bring them through the blockade like the Israelis do every week.

That wouldnt have suited the political purposes of the organisers.

dlofnep

walshb wrote: »

I hope both Irish men are ok and released unharmed, but maybe it will teach them to mind their own ****ing business and stop meddling in the affairs of other countries.

Mind their own business?

So everyone should mind their own business for every humananitarian crisis in world? :rolleyes:

youcrazyjesus!

walshb wrote: »

I hope both Irish men are ok and released unharmed, but maybe it will teach them to mind their own ****ing business and stop meddling in the affairs of other countries.

So, for example, we should leave people in <insert 3rd world country> to starve to death or die when natural disasters and famine hit?

It's a humanitarian problem we're talking about.

walshb

dlofnep wrote: »

Mind their own business?

So everyone should mind their own business for every humananitarian crisis in world? :rolleyes:

Now you got it.

You know, all the aid gone to Palestine is only acting as an encouragement
to the Israeli army. Every time they destroy parts of Palestine they know full
well that the Irish and others are only too happy to throw money to
rebuild. I mean, this is ludicrous. It is doing more bloody harm

karma_

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

So, for example, we should leave people in <insert 3rd world country> to starve to death or die when natural disasters and famine hit?

It's a humanitarian problem we're talking about.

Well in his defence WalshB is known for his hatred of any type of charity.

Byron85

walshb wrote: »

I hope both Irish men are ok and released unharmed, but maybe it will teach them to mind their own ****ing business and stop meddling in the affairs of other countries.

Delivering aid is meddling?

dlofnep

walshb wrote: »

Now you got it.

No thanks.

Sand

@ dlofnep

Any chance of getting an impartial inquiry are out the window.

Why assume that? As pointed out on just the last page, Israel is a liberal democracy.

Either way it would be difficult to carry out an impartial inquiry - too many people have an idealogical or emotive axe to grind with Israel far out of sync with its actual crimes.

No one is proposing aid flotillas to North Korea for example.

yoshytoshy

Sand wrote: »

@yoshytoshy


Its not an actual supply convoy - its a political gesture, designed to bring about confrontation with the IDF for propaganda purposes and to undermine the Israeli blockade against Hamas. That is why the organisers refused to the Israeli proposal to land the goods at an Israeli port, allow the Israelis to inspect them, and bring them through the blockade like the Israelis do every week.

That wouldnt have suited the political purposes of the organisers.

The people aren't getting what they need ,they're being left homeless.

walshb

karma_ wrote: »

Well in his defence WalshB is known for his hatred of any type of charity.

Any type? NO, I actually donate to several charities.

yoshytoshy

walshb wrote: »

Now you got it.

You know, all the aid gone to Palestine is only acting as an encouragement
to the Israeli army. Every time they destroy parts of Palestine they know full
well that the Irish and others are only too happy to throw money to
rebuild. I mean, this is ludicrous. It is doing more bloody harm

So lets not borrow from the EU ,to fund our public service so. Its doing more bloody harm :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

@ dlofnep


Why assume that?

I assume it because their last inquiring was full of blatant lies and misinformation.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

You might believe that, but the Israelis believe differently. They have instituted a blockade around what is described as a war as and when it suits. Attempting to breach the blockade was going to bring about an IDF reaction. No one but a child believed otherwise, especially the organisers who did everything in their power to create a confrontation.

There's no war in Gaza. The Israelis are clear in that. So the blockade isn't a war zone. At worst the flotilla would have entered Israeli-controlled waters at some point - where the IDF would have had some legitimacy in boarding/diverting the ships.

Sand wrote: »

Faced with the need to get on board the ship, surely the wisest course with hindsight would have been to have used less than lethal weapons from the helicopters to break up and disperse the mob from the upper decks so the commandos could land and form up. The situation devolved into a mess, with terrible consequences, because the mob attacked the surprised Israelis litterally as they dropped into the middle of the mob. Clear the mob away first, then no problem.

Now - the 'mob' sounds like a pretty pejorative term to me - given that what we had was an ad-hoc attempt to defend a ship from illegal siezure. Secondly there was no need to get on the ship in open seas, and in the dead of night. Now how about in territorial waters and in the clarity of daytime?

Sand wrote: »

It seems clear that to avoid similar problems in the future (remember, the Israelis arent going to allow uninspected deliveries to Hamas, sorry) the IDF should consider any mob on board ships to be potentially violent, instruct them to disperse, and then begin using less than lethal weapons to clear them. I think it works out best for everyone. The protestors get their good TV, the IDF get to inspect the boats, and hopefully nobody gets stabbed or shot.

What the IDF have managed to get out this shambles is the Rafah crossing opened, without any Israeli oversight or inspection. Way to go on the military decision-making game!

walshb

yoshytoshy wrote: »

So lets not borrow from the EU ,to fund our public service so. Its doing more bloody harm :rolleyes:

Yeah, because those bloody Germans and French are bombing Ireland and destroying its people. I can so see the comparison.

Look, Israel need tough and hard action and sanctions. Throwing money at Palestine to rebuild is only encouraging the Israelis to keep delivering the bombs. Keep them coming, sure the West and Ireland will fund the rebuild.:rolleyes:

Sand

@yoshytoshy

The people aren't getting what they need ,they're being left homeless.

The people of Gaza are in a tragic situation alright, but thats been true of all people in a warzone throughout history. Germany was starved into surrender in World War One by a British naval blockade with terrible suffering of the civillian population resulting from it. A blockade that was also illegal and illegally enforced. But that is the nature of war - legalities run second to strategic realities. The Germans chose to seek peace, a bitter, hated peace, but then they had a leadership that felt accountable to the people. The Palestinians unfortunately do not.

Either way, a few ships every now and then is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the supplies that the Israelis bring through the blockade. No one ever heard of the British bringing supplies to Germany to ease civillian suffering during a state of war.

mrboswell

Sand wrote: »

Out of curiousity, should the Israeli commandos have used stun grenades, tear gas and fired their paintguns from the helicopters to clear the mob away so they could land on the deck in safety and form up? The inevitability of the deaths seems to have occured because the commandos landed in the middle of the mob who attacked them with a ferocity the Israelis hadnt expected - if they mob had been dispersed by less than lethal weapons before any troops landed, surely the outcome would have been better for all concerned?

The outcome would have been better for all concerned if the israeli commandos stayed in their helicopter

yoshytoshy

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, because those bloody Germans and French are bombing Ireland and destroying its people. I can so see the comparison.

Look, Israel need tough and hard action and sanctions. Throwing money at Palestine to rebuild is only encouraging the Israelis to keep delivering the bombs. Keep them coming, sure the West and Ireland will fund the rebuild.

Thats a gamble that only palestine should take ,thats the way I'd see it anyway.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

Why assume that? As pointed out on just the last page, Israel is a liberal democracy.

That didn't use white phosphorous... Didn't shoot Tom Hurndall... Oh wait

Internal inquiries are not their strongest suite.

snow ghost

Sand wrote: »

@ dlofnep


Why assume that? As pointed out on just the last page, Israel is a liberal democracy.

Either way it would be difficult to carry out an impartial inquiry - too many people have an idealogical or emotive axe to grind with Israel far out of sync with its actual crimes.

No one is proposing aid flotillas to North Korea for example.

So you're suggesting that it would be difficult for the whole of the international community or the UN to conduct an impartial inquiry into these Israeli actions, but Israel itself could conduct an impartial inquiry into its own actions because its apparently a liberal democracy?

What a ludicrous argument, you're basically saying the whole of the world would be too biased to conduct an inquiry about this attrocity. But those responsible for it would ensure it was impartial.

That's a bit like letting the Nazis conduct an impartial inquiry into the Holocaust.

HavingCrack

Sand wrote: »

@ dlofnep

No one is proposing aid flotillas to North Korea for example.

Excellent point.

IrishTonyO

Sand wrote: »

@yoshytoshy


The people of Gaza are in a tragic situation alright, but thats been true of all people in a warzone throughout history. Germany was starved into surrender in World War One by a British naval blockade with terrible suffering of the civillian population resulting from it. A blockade that was also illegal and illegally enforced. But that is the nature of war - legalities run second to strategic realities. The Germans chose to seek peace, a bitter, hated peace, but then they had a leadership that felt accountable to the people. The Palestinians unfortunately do not.

Either way, a few ships every now and then is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the supplies that the Israelis bring through the blockade. No one ever heard of the British bringing supplies to Germany to ease civillian suffering during a state of war.

Fine except one thing Israel is not in a state of war!!

Sand

@Alastair

There's no war in Gaza. The Israelis are clear in that. So the blockade isn't a war zone. At worst the flotilla would have entered Israeli-controlled waters at some point - where the IDF would have had some legitimacy in boarding/diverting the ships.

So seeing as there is no war, its not possible for Israel to have committed war crimes or breached the Geneva Convention? If theres no war, what are Hamas and the various Palestinian militant groups engaged in? Terrorism?

Now - the 'mob' sounds like a pretty pejorative term to me - given that what we had was an ad-hoc attempt to defend a ship from illegal siezure. Secondly there was no need to get on the ship in open seas, and in the dead of night. Now how about in territorial waters and in the clarity of daytime?

Well, Ive heard the term "lynching" used to describe their behaviour toward the IDF soldiers as well - theres not much one can do to try and pretend what the Israelis were dealing with was a group of reasonable and calm people, though I admit you tried.

The reports I have heard indicate that the IDF believed that the closer the interception was to the coast, the more chance some of the ships would breach the blockade and reach the Gaza coast. So the farther out, the more chance they have of preventing them getting to the shore. I assume its not easy to land troops on a ship that isnt keeping on a steady course and speed to assist.

What the IDF have managed to get out this shambles is the Rafah crossing opened, without any Israeli oversight or inspection. Way to go on the military decision-making game!

Its a populist move - Egypt have no interest in an armed fundamentalist Hamas anymore than Israel does. The blockade by the Egyptians will be put back in place when tempers have cooled.

youcrazyjesus!

Sand wrote: »

@yoshytoshy


Its not an actual supply convoy - its a political gesture, designed to bring about confrontation with the IDF for propaganda purposes and to undermine the Israeli blockade against Hamas. That is why the organisers refused to the Israeli proposal to land the goods at an Israeli port, allow the Israelis to inspect them, and bring them through the blockade like the Israelis do every week.

That wouldnt have suited the political purposes of the organisers.

The blockade is illegitimate and immoral. It should be undermined. Israel has no legal right or moral right to dictate what goes in and out of Gaza or the West Bank. Just like apartheid in South Africa Israeli's policy in Palestine should be opposed in whatever way people can and they should oppose it and bring attention to the humanitarian problem there. If you want to denigrate this as "political", "propaganda" that's your business but all I see are people trying to do the right thing for people who've been treated like animals for decades.

As you well know by now but repeatedly ignore Israel would have taken anything useful from the cargo. Israel wants to keep Palestine poor and ignorant and bans the most innocuous items. Israel should have taken up THEIR inspection offers, not the other way around.

The biggest success they would have hoped for was to reach Gaza unharmed, to suggest confrontation with the IDF is what they wanted is wrong. Totally wrong.

yoshytoshy

Sand wrote: »

@yoshytoshy


The people of Gaza are in a tragic situation alright, but thats been true of all people in a warzone throughout history. Germany was starved into surrender in World War One by a British naval blockade with terrible suffering of the civillian population resulting from it. A blockade that was also illegal and illegally enforced. But that is the nature of war - legalities run second to strategic realities. The Germans chose to seek peace, a bitter, hated peace, but then they had a leadership that felt accountable to the people. The Palestinians unfortunately do not.

Either way, a few ships every now and then is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the supplies that the Israelis bring through the blockade. No one ever heard of the British bringing supplies to Germany to ease civillian suffering during a state of war.

At the end of the day ,you have your reasons for support and I don't

Isreal has no natural resources to sustain the level of force it has in it's region ,it's always going to be a rogue country.

youcrazyjesus!

walshb wrote: »

Now you got it.

You know, all the aid gone to Palestine is only acting as an encouragement
to the Israeli army. Every time they destroy parts of Palestine they know full
well that the Irish and others are only too happy to throw money to
rebuild. I mean, this is ludicrous. It is doing more bloody harm

This is utter nonsense.

mrboswell

walshb wrote: »

Look, Israel need tough and hard action and sanctions. Throwing money at Palestine to rebuild is only encouraging the Israelis to keep delivering the bombs. Keep them coming, sure the West and Ireland will fund the rebuild.:rolleyes:

And who will impose the hard action and sanctions? They have the US in their back pocket. What you are saying is worthless as it will never happen.

walshb

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

This is utter nonsense.

No rebuttal then?