Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

dublinlawless

Sand wrote: »

@ dlofnep

No one is proposing aid flotillas to North Korea for example.

The US condemned the sinking of the S.korean naval vessel by North Korea in South Korean waters afew weeks ago and the murder of the 46 soldiers on board. They have called for sanctions on North Korea. Likewise the Israeli army murdered at least 10 people in waters that are not their own. Unlike the Korean incident the people on the Aid flotilla were humanitarians not soldiers. I wonder how soon we'll see America condemn the attack and call for sanctions on Israel.

Fremen

Sand wrote: »

No one is proposing aid flotillas to North Korea for example.

It seems like the rule of thumb is that you can oppress your own people with impunity (plenty of historical precident for that). It's when you start to oppress other nations that people get pissed off.

walshb

mrboswell wrote: »

And who will impose the hard action and sanctions? They have the US in their back pocket. What you are saying is worthless as it will never happen.

Yeah, well throwing money and rebuilding so as to allow the bombing to continue is also worthless.

gandalf

dublinlawless wrote: »

I wonder how soon we'll see America condemn the attack and call for sanctions on Israel.

You won't they have blocked calls for an Independent enquiry at the UN Security council

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

Its business as usual for Israel so with the backing from its US sponsor.So much for Obama changing things.

youcrazyjesus!

walshb wrote: »

No rebuttal then?

When faced with something so completely illogical and backwards it's pointless to refute it. Saying donating basic supplies such as cement, pencils and medicine causes Israel to cause more damage is like saying condoms cause AIDS.

IrishTonyO

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, well throwing money and rebuilding so as to allow the bombing to continue is also worthless.

What a stupid statement, so we let the people starve without aid as aid is the only way the Palestinians are surviving (I won't say living)

youcrazyjesus!

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, well throwing money and rebuilding so as to allow the bombing to continue is also worthless.

No it's not. As is pointed out above, the existing UN backed supply program keeps people from starving to death.

Getting supplies through helps ordinary people who live in desperate poverty while also getting the message through to the world that denying them a decent life is wrong and that Israel should not be allowed control anywhere outside it's 1967 borders.

Sand

@IrishTonyO

Fine except one thing Israel is not in a state of war!!

Forgive me, its difficult to keep up with the ever changing logic underpinning peoples arguments. Sometimes its a war crime, a breach of the geneva conventions, or Israel has responsibilities as the occupying power. All which imply a war. At other times...apparently it isnt a war.

It seems to change to suit whatever suits best at the time.

@snow ghost

So you're suggesting that it would be difficult for the whole of the international community or the UN to conduct an impartial inquiry into these Israeli actions, but Israel itself could conduct an impartial inquiry into its own actions because its apparently a liberal democracy?

What a ludicrous argument, you're basically saying the whole of the world would be too biased to conduct an inquiry about this attrocity. But those responsible for it would ensure it was impartial.

That's a bit like letting the Nazis conduct an impartial inquiry into the Holocaust.

I said why assume the Israeli inquiry would not be impartial given its a liberal democracy where its just been demonstrated there is dissent from the government line?

It might be partial or impartial, but it would be very difficult to find people from abroad who dont have some immediate red flag response to the words Israel or Palestine. International inquiries are considered good for impartiality because they bring in a disinterested, objective opinion from people who have little or no emotional tie to any of the issues or actors in the local dispute.

That is just very hard to find internationally as regards the Israeli-Palestine conflict which has attracted vastly more UN condemnation than practically any war or atrocity in the known history of the world and which inspires the sort of raw emotive rage that possessed the people on board the flotilla.

Hence, it might be easier to find truly impartial people, able to criticise Israeli on an objective, balanced basis (as opposed to an emotive, raw basis) inside Israel rather than outside it.

@youcrazyjesus

to suggest confrontation with the IDF is what they wanted is wrong. Totally wrong.

OK

mrboswell

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, well throwing money and rebuilding so as to allow the bombing to continue is also worthless.

At least you agree that what you suggest is worthless.

I suspect the children would be happy to have a school or somewhere safe to play and learn. Also that people would have some level of security where they live. Running water? A means to make an income? The list is endless.

By your logic sending any aid is pointless - why do you bother to throw nonsense arguments if its a waste?

youcrazyjesus!

OrthoD2 wrote: »

And nobody is proposing a fight against injustice in Western China. :cool:

There were protests at the time(s). This type of stuff is disingenuous and beyond the scope of the thread. Start a new thread if you want to debate this.

dublinlawless

deadtiger wrote: »

You won't they have blocked calls for an Independent enquiry at the UN Security council

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

Its business as usual for Israel so with the backing from its US sponsor.So much for Obama changing things.

I was being sarcastic of course I know America will never criticise Israel.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

So seeing as there is no war, its not possible for Israel to have committed war crimes or breached the Geneva Convention? If theres no war, what are Hamas and the various Palestinian militant groups engaged in? Terrorism?

You can breach the Geneva Convention outside a war. There's obligations on 'occupying forces' regardless of whether there's military conflict or not. And yes - Israel's position is that Hamas are terrorists.

Sand wrote: »

Well, Ive heard the term "lynching" used to describe their behaviour toward the IDF soldiers as well - theres not much one can do to try and pretend what the Israelis were dealing with was a group of reasonable and calm people, though I admit you tried.

I've heard the term lynching used in relation to the events as well - by the IDF. I wouldn't expect them to offer an impartial reading of the situation. Was anyone actually lynched? No. Would you expect a calm reception in the scenario those people were presented with? And when did an absense of calm define a 'mob'?

Sand wrote: »

The reports I have heard indicate that the IDF believed that the closer the interception was to the coast, the more chance some of the ships would breach the blockade and reach the Gaza coast. So the farther out, the more chance they have of preventing them getting to the shore. I assume its not easy to land troops on a ship that isnt keeping on a steady course and speed to assist.

They've managed to board previous flotillas within Gazan waters without too much bother. I doubt the context has changed any in the meantime.

Sand wrote: »

Its a populist move - Egypt have no interest in an armed fundamentalist Hamas anymore than Israel does. The blockade by the Egyptians will be put back in place when tempers have cooled.

And yet the reality is that the border is currently allowing through aid without any Israeli oversight. As I say - what a win for the IDF!

del88

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

So, for example, we should leave people in <insert 3rd world country> to starve to death or die when natural disasters and famine hit?

It's a humanitarian problem we're talking about.

Ye but we do leave them to starve to death

Every day 30,000 children die from a combination of disease- infested water and malnutrition. In sub-Saharan Africa, measles takes the life of a child nearly every minute of every day. An effective measles vaccine costs as little as $1 per child. (source: WHO)

Why don't you give out about this??

youcrazyjesus!

Sand wrote: »

@IrishTonyO
Forgive me, its difficult to keep up with the ever changing logic underpinning peoples arguments. Sometimes its a war crime, a breach of the geneva conventions, or Israel has responsibilities as the occupying power. All which imply a war. At other times...apparently it isnt a war.

Either way it's wrong and immoral.

I said why assume the Israeli inquiry would not be impartial given its a liberal democracy where its just been demonstrated there is dissent from the government line?

Are you seriously asking this question or just being disingenuous?

That is just very hard to find internationally as regards the Israeli-Palestine conflict which has attracted vastly more UN condemnation than practically any war or atrocity in the known history of the world and which inspires the sort of raw emotive rage that possessed the people on board the flotilla.

It has attracted it for some very good god damn reasons. Ffs.

Hence, it might be easier to find truly impartial people, able to criticise Israeli on an objective, balanced basis (as opposed to an emotive, raw basis) inside Israel rather than outside it.

Why is it only people who don't agree completely with Israel who are never impartial? If you find Israel has done wrong it doesn't mean you are biased. There is an objective truth to be found.

mrboswell

del88 wrote: »

Ye but we do leave them to starve to death

Every day 30,000 children die from a combination of disease- infested water and malnutrition. In sub-Saharan Africa, measles takes the life of a child nearly every minute of every day. An effective measles vaccine costs as little as $1 per child. (source: WHO)

Why don't you give out about this??

Well I would if a ship with aid was on its way to help and was attacked and resulted in the death of aid workers

youcrazyjesus!

del88 wrote: »

Ye but we do leave them to starve to death

Every day 30,000 children die from a combination of disease- infested water and malnutrition. In sub-Saharan Africa, measles takes the life of a child nearly every minute of every day. An effective measles vaccine costs as little as $1 per child. (source: WHO)

Why don't you give out about this??

This is outside the scope of the thread and it's disingenuous to bring it up here. You don't know me, my personal opinions and what if I donate to, if anything.

Mr.Micro

dublinlawless wrote: »

I was being sarcastic of course I know America will never criticise Israel.

No any criticism is reserved for Iran. Any inquiry by Israel alone is unacceptable and will not quieten international opinion. Do not expect the US to criticize Israel when the US itself has committed outrages in Iraq and Afghanistan. The hypocrisy would be breath taking if it happened.

youcrazyjesus!

deadtiger wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

.

Is this story satire?

Scofflaw

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Is this story satire?

What, this bit?

The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

Could be God's version of satire, I suppose.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Sand - we may not agree politically, on probably any issues - But I've always found you to be a well-thought poster.

Let me ask you - You seem to have faith in Israel performing an impartial inquiry, because it's a liberal democracy. The fact that their political framework is democratic, does not mean that they cannot have terrible foreign policies. I mean, there are many democratic nations around the world that have less than desirable policies.

Did you see the last report on the Gazan bombing campaign by Israel, that they released? And if so - why do you still have faith in their ability to put forth an impartial inquiry.

Let me put it to you that Israel has it's interests to protect, and as such - will have to try and do everything in their power to make this incident appear as if Israel was totally without fault. Israel is notorious for refusing to accept blame in their wrong-doings. Why would we expect them to take the blame for this?

Expect the following.

• Edited videos demonstrating attacks on soldiers.
• Heavy PR campaign, backed by Rupert Murdoch media - claiming that they were legally sound.
• Heavy PR campaign, attacking the character of those onboard.

You also have to ask yourself - Why did Israel block communication to the activists, giving Israel a few days to establish a media campaign - instead of allowing both sides of the story out?

Why did the US block a request for a UN-lead, impartial international inquiry?

You're a smart guy - know you're not swallowing all this propaganda without it raising a few eyebrows for you. Even if it's not your political cup of tea.

paulaa

Sand wrote: »

I said why assume the Israeli inquiry would not be impartial given its a liberal democracy where its just been demonstrated there is dissent from the government line?

It might be partial or impartial, but it would be very difficult to find people from abroad who dont have some immediate red flag response to the words Israel or Palestine. International inquiries are considered good for impartiality because they bring in a disinterested, objective opinion from people who have little or no emotional tie to any of the issues or actors in the local dispute.

That is just very hard to find internationally as regards the Israeli-Palestine conflict which has attracted vastly more UN condemnation than practically any war or atrocity in the known history of the world and which inspires the sort of raw emotive rage that possessed the people on board the flotilla.

Hence, it might be easier to find truly impartial people, able to criticise Israeli on an objective, balanced basis (as opposed to an emotive, raw basis) inside Israel rather than outside it.

Goldstone, a South African Jew with strong ties to Israel managed it, and for his trouble he was called a self hating Jew. He also couldn't attend his grandson's Bar Mitzvah in Israel because of death threats.

Byron85

paulaa wrote: »

Goldstone, a South African Jew with strong ties to Israel managed it, and for his trouble he was called a self hating Jew. He also couldn't attend his grandson's Bar Mitzvah in Israel because of death threats.

The self-hating Jew mantra is wheeled out quite often. I've seen it being used against Norman Finkelstein and i've seen people call him a "classic anti-semite". Accusations of anti-semitism and other such accusations are the last resort of scoundrels and cowards.

Sand

You can breach the Geneva Convention outside a war. There's obligations on 'occupying forces' regardless of whether there's military conflict or not. And yes - Israel's position is that Hamas are terrorists.

You can breach the law, but you cant breach the Geneva Convention - its an legal framework covering the expected standards between participants (as in factions) in a conflict. Its meaningless outside of a conflict.

I dont expect you to agree, and I amnt to interested whether it gets the official "WAR" stamp of approval - its not a civil dispute either way - so no need to tie yourself up in knots arguing it. As I already said, the position over if its a war or "conflict" for want of better word alters as needed to best suit current needs.

I've heard the term lynching used in relation to the events as well - by the IDF. I wouldn't expect them to offer an impartial reading of the situation. Was anyone actually lynched? No.

Well, theres never been too many successful lynchings of armed, trained soldiers. Unsuccessful ones, yes. Successful, no.

And when did an absense of calm define a 'mob'

Argue it with the dictionary I guess.

"1. A large disorderly crowd or throng. "

They've managed to board previous flotillas within Gazan waters without too much bother. I doubt the context has changed any in the meantime.

I understand the flotilla breached the blockade before.

And yet the reality is that the border is currently allowing through aid without any Israeli oversight. As I say - what a win for the IDF!

It was hardly planned to kill anyone, its just an unfortunate and temporary consequence of a dreadful tragedy brought about by the mob attacking the Israelis.

del88

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

This is outside the scope of the thread and it's disingenuous to bring it up here. You don't know me, my personal opinions and what if I donate to, if anything.

I don't think it is disingenuous,it a fact that people don't like to think about because it's not as juicy a news story...no excitement...no debate...no big bad wolf ...
I don't agree with what happened yesterday but peoples reaction seems way out of proportion considering what's going on all around the world .
Where's the march for the children dying in africa?

dlofnep

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The self-hating Jew mantra is wheeled out quite often. I've seen it being used against Norman Finkelstein and i've seen people call him a "classic anti-semite". Accusations of anti-semitism and other such accusations are the last resort of scoundrels and cowards.

Aye, and both his parents are holocaust survivors.

youcrazyjesus!

paulaa wrote: »

Goldstone, a South African Jew with strong ties to Israel managed it, and for his trouble he was called a self hating Jew. He also couldn't attend his grandson's Bar Mitzvah in Israel because of death threats.

That's an interesting point. It should be known that many Jewish worldwide oppose this type of action as vehemently as anybody else, including from within Israel. It's an irony that those who accuse Israel's opponents of anti-Semitism assign a single opinion on all subjects to do with Israel to all Jews. Who is the anti-Semite, I ask.

Byron85

dlofnep wrote: »

Aye, and both his parents are holocaust survivors.

That's what makes it so disgusting.

Anyway, we're getting off topic, again.

youcrazyjesus!

del88 wrote: »

I don't think it is disingenuous,it a fact that people don't like to think about because it's not as juicy a news story...no excitement...no debate...no big bad wolf ...
I don't agree with what happened yesterday but peoples reaction seems way out of proportion considering what's going on all around the world .
Where's the march for the children dying in africa?

There seem to have been some pretty big marches across the world in recent years and some massive pop concerts were held, watched by billions according to their organisers.

Didn't millions of people march in Britain over this a few years ago?

Scofflaw

del88 wrote: »

I don't think it is disingenuous,it a fact that people don't like to think about because it's not as juicy a news story...no excitement...no debate...no big bad wolf ...
I don't agree with what happened yesterday but peoples reaction seems way out of proportion considering what's going on all around the world .
Where's the march for the children dying in africa?

In another thread, I would think. Not in this one, because it's not relevant. I think you'll find that your point has been noted, but disregarded, because this thread about the actions of Israel is for people who consider the actions of Israel important.

moderately,
Scofflaw

paulaa

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The self-hating Jew mantra is wheeled out quite often. I've seen it being used against Norman Finkelstein and i've seen people call him a "classic anti-semite". Accusations of anti-semitism and other such accusations are the last resort of scoundrels and cowards.

Yes I agree. There's a whole new generation of people now who don't have the same guilt for the Holocaust as their parents and the anti-semitism accusation doesn't bother them.

I've just seen a RT TV interview on Facebook with Finklestein where he calls Israel a lunatic State