Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

del88

wes wrote: »

Your concern for the Tamils is clearly disingenuous, and another blatant attempt at predictable whataboutery, to try and deflect criticism from Israel.

I'm completely critical of Israel,what they did and are doing is disgracefully but it does seem strange that they alone seem to ignite such venom and anger considering the many other atrocities that hardly raise an eyebrow .

Echoplex

The Israeli Ambassador to Ireland has been placed under House Arrest in Dublin. The Irish Secret Service have surrounded the Consulate with the aid of armed Rapid Reaction Force officers.
Micheal Martin has informed the Israeli Government that "this action has proven necessary to guarantee that no abuse of our interned citizens, or those on the incoming ship, will take place. Should any harm come to Irish citizens, the Ambassador's detention will escalate to jail, with subsequent prosecution"
Taoiseach Brian Cowen added "Israel has messed with the wrong island this time,... pilgrim"

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

No its not disingenous, I take an interest in lots of ongoing situations as todays news is tomorrows history. What it is its pointing out the hypocrisy of the likes of you. 7000 dead yet not a murmur but your big on the hatred of Israel, how come?

Yeah, still off topic....

Also, in the 2 most recent Sri Lanka threads, I did post in them, and you didn't. So once again stop it with the disingenous whatbouatery. I do care about the treatment of the Tamils and even post in the threads, which you did not, and you are now trying to derail this thread:

"Civilian 'slaughter' in Sri Lanka "
Truth About Sri Lanka Another 1000 civilians break out of captivity

So to get back on topic....

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

No, sorry making fun of some who lost there eye is messed up, and does your cause no favours.

Like you accuse Israel, I'm getting past the point of caring at this stage.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Like you accuse Israel, I'm getting past the point of caring at this stage.

What are you even talking about?!? Seriously your making 0 sense at this point.

Also, when Israel stops murdering people, I will stop accusing them of doing so.

yoshytoshy

I'd just like to say ,Good Luck ! ,to the irish ship.

Hopefully the outcome will be more respectful ,of everyones interests.

IH77

Agent_99 wrote: »

This was another blatant act of terrorism violating international law!

"Definitions of terrorism: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious"

I wouldn't rely on http://www.thefreedictionary.com for political definitions. This was not terrorism. Terrorism is when the attack is carried out by a non-state actor.

deravarra

Echoplex wrote: »

The Israeli Ambassador to Ireland has been placed under House Arrest in Dublin. The Irish Secret Service have surrounded the Consulate with the aid of armed Rapid Reaction Force officers.
Micheal Martin has informed the Israeli Government that "this action has proven necessary to guarantee that no abuse of our interned citizens, or those on the incoming ship, will take place. Should any harm come to Irish citizens, the Ambassador's detention will escalate to jail, with subsequent prosecution"
Taoiseach Brian Cowen added "Israel has messed with the wrong island this time,... pilgrim"

Wouldnt it be great if they had the balls to do it?

P. Breathnach

Sand wrote: »

...
I explained my reasoning in a post just previously - perhaps lost in the time differential. I dont say Israels inquiry will be impartial by default, but I wouldnt assume that it will be partial by default either....

Who has most to lose by an enquiry finding that the IDF was at fault? The Israeli government has more reason than almost any other person to seek a whitewash. We have a well-established principle that nobody should be the judge in his own case.

We have been reminded in this thread of Rachel Corrie, who is commemorated in the name of one of the ships in the flotilla (and whose fate was treated dismissively by a previous poster in this thread). She died in an effort to prevent the IDF bulldozing a house in Gaza. I saw a video of what happened, and it is very difficult to believe that her death was an unavoidable accident, and that the driver of the bulldozer that drove over her was unaware of her presence. Yet that is what an Israeli inquiry found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie].

The US government suggestion that Israel should enquire into Israel's actions is preposterous.

wes

IH77 wrote: »

I wouldn't rely on http://www.thefreedictionary.com for political definitions. This was not terrorism. Terrorism is when the attack is carried out by a non-state actor.

Just thrown the word state in front of it, and it works just fine.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Who has most to lose by an enquiry finding that the IDF was at fault? The Israeli government has more reason than almost any other person to seek a whitewash. We have a well-established principle that nobody should be the judge in his own case.

We have been reminded in this thread of Rachel Corrie, who is commemorated in the name of one of the ships in the flotilla (and whose fate was treated dismissively by a previous poster in this thread). She died in an effort to prevent the IDF bulldozing a house in Gaza. I saw a video of what happened, and it is very difficult to believe that her death was an unavoidable accident, and that the driver of the bulldozer that drove over her was unaware of her presence. Yet that is what an Israeli inquiry found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie].

The US government suggestion that Israel should enquire into Israel's actions is preposterous.

Spot on and if Israel feels so righteous about its actions it would be more than happy to hand over the investigation to an independent body. The US as usual appears complicit in this and yet again proves ineffective to gain any real solution to the long term problem/plight of Gaza.

youcrazyjesus!

del88 wrote: »

I'm completely critical of Israel,what they did and are doing is disgracefully but it does seem strange that they alone seem to ignite such venom and anger considering the many other atrocities that hardly raise an eyebrow .

How many times do we have to deal with this point on the thread. Start a new thread ffs. You've brought up the same point about 5 times now.

Paddy Samurai

Meanwhile Egypt has temporarily opened its border with the Gaza Strip to allow aid, a government official said.
The move has prompted thousands of Gazans to rush to leave the normally closed territory, flocking to the Rafah crossing point in cars laden with luggage.Rafah is the only border post from Gaza not fully controlled by Israel and has been opened only sparingly by Cairo since Hamas seized control in Gaza three years ago

You guys will probably know the answer to this.Why does'nt Egypt sent aid through their border with Gaza??.They said they opened it today to allow aid.Why did they not send aid through previously??.

Byron85

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

You guys will probably know the answer to this.Why does'nt Egypt sent aid through their border with Gaza??.They said they opened it today to allow aid.Why did they not send aid through previously??.

They are anti-Hamas too and were towing the line with Israel. Recent events though, and no doubt pressure from their neighbours, has led to the reopening of the border.

IrishTonyO

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

You guys will probably know the answer to this.Why does'nt Egypt sent aid through their border with Gaza??.They said they opened it today to allow aid.Why did they not send aid through previously??.

it was closed after Hamas took over Gaza

a brief summary here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing

Echoplex

Paddy, I believe that Egypt crossing is a very narrow one or two lane one.
Too small to handle trucks.
DD

youcrazyjesus!

Israeli MP says Israel fired on the ships minutes before commandos boarded.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100602/FOREIGN/706019813/1002/FOREIGN

Manic Moran

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Israeli MP says Israel fired on the ships minutes before commandos boarded.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100602/FOREIGN/706019813/1002/FOREIGN

Haneen Zoubi said Israeli naval vessels had surrounded the flotilla’s flagship, the Mavi Marmara, and fired on it a few minutes before commandos abseiled from a helicopter directly above them.

Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them

So either they fired at them with water cannon (Unlikely, I'd say), or they fired warning shots into the sea neaby the ship. (More likely). I note she says nothing about any casualties occuring before the boarding.

NTM

yoshytoshy

There has been reports of windows being smashed before the decent by air.

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

So either they fired at them with water cannon (Unlikely, I'd say), or they fired warning shots into the sea neaby the ship. (More likely). I note she says nothing about any casualties occuring before the boarding.

You were there? Can you give us the full facts seeing as you were there and saw everything.

omega666

Manic Moran wrote: »

So either they fired at them with water cannon (Unlikely, I'd say), or they fired warning shots into the sea neaby the ship. (More likely). I note she says nothing about any casualties occuring before the boarding.

NTM

what are the chances that one of the warning shots accidently hit someone onboard

Manic Moran

omega666 wrote: »

what are the chances that one of the warning shots accidently hit someone onboard

Possible, but then wouldn't she say something like 'terrified passengers were forced off the deck when sprayed by hot sharp pieces of metal' or 'terrified passengers were forced off the deck by the sight of wounded shipmates'?

I would have thought that a casualty would have been more noteworthy for her to report than water spray.

NTM

halkar

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Israeli MP says Israel fired on the ships minutes before commandos boarded.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100602/FOREIGN/706019813/1002/FOREIGN

Not surprised by this. There are only a few minutes of coverage on board before and during soldiers boarded the ship. In those shots almost everyone had life jackets on.

gandalf

omega666 wrote: »

what are the chances that one of the warning shots accidently hit someone onboard

Well the Israelis do have bad aim. Remember that UN outpost that got hit by "accident".

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

Possible, but then wouldn't she say something like 'terrified passengers were forced off the deck when sprayed by hot sharp pieces of metal' or 'terrified passengers were forced off the deck by the sight of wounded shipmates'?

I would have thought that a casualty would have been more noteworthy for her to report than water spray.

NTM

When somebody says "fire on the ship" I believe they mean "fired" and not "threw water on us".

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.eyewitnesses/

The way you twist facts and focus in on tiny details and use them to define the situation, the way you come up with your "well in my experience only one of 2 very narrow accounts of events could possibly be valid, neither of them anything bad" is really ridiculous.

It's the military mind at work and it's pathetic. You fool nobody, except perhaps yourself. I've absolutely no respect for anything you have to say.

IrishTonyO

Irish to be released tomorrow and not deported

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-gaza-activists-to-be-released-tomorrow-460020.html

youcrazyjesus!

Witnesses accuse Israel of "shoot to kill" policy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-deaths-pressure-israel-inquiry

"They had guns, Taser weapons, some type of teargas and other weaponry, compared to two-and-a-half wooden sticks we had between us. To talk of self-defence is ridiculous."

It wouldn't surprise me if the footage released by Israeli military was made over the last few days and is fictional.

LostinBlanch

deadtiger wrote: »

Well the Israelis do have bad aim. Remember that UN outpost that got hit by "accident".

I seem to remember reading a post by someone on here who met some Israeli soldiers a couple of years after he served in Lebanon. He told them where he was based and one of them was able to quote the lattitude and longtitude of his base off by heart!

Manic Moran

When somebody says "fire on the ship" I believe they mean "fired" and not "threw water on us".

Hey, it's not my words. The person who was there said the people were forced from the deck by water spray. There aren't many places that spray could have come from. Water cannon/squirt guns is one possibility, but I agree with your conclusion that had such been used, she probably would have used different terminology. The only other option I can think of, unless the Israelis have started using munitions filled with water, is that the firing landed in the sea causing the spray. If you have another way of matching the terminology used with the effects described, I'm willing to hear it.

NTM

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

Hey, it's not my words. The person who was there said the people were forced from the deck by water spray. There aren't many places that spray could have come from. Water cannon/squirt guns is one possibility, but I agree with your conclusion that had such been used, she probably would have used different terminology. The only other option I can think of, unless the Israelis have started using munitions filled with water, is that the firing landed in the sea causing the spray. If you have another way of matching the terminology used with the effects described, I'm willing to hear it

:rolleyes:

God, that's embarrassing stuff. Her words were very very clear and I'm sure they'll be expanded upon by her and others soon. The eyewitness accounts will come thick and fast over the next few days.