Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Scofflaw

Manic Moran wrote: »

Hey, it's not my words. The person who was there said the people were forced from the deck by water spray. There aren't many places that spray could have come from. Water cannon/squirt guns is one possibility, but I agree with your conclusion that had such been used, she probably would have used different terminology. The only other option I can think of, unless the Israelis have started using munitions filled with water, is that the firing landed in the sea causing the spray. If you have another way of matching the terminology used with the effects described, I'm willing to hear it.

NTM

That seems quite possible. Mind you, it also seems quite possible to me that a welter of detail will be used as much as possible to obscure the essential issues.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conaire1

Quit the bickering. I'll volunteer for the next flotilla ... and the next one.

IrishTonyO

The Israeli ambassador is going to be on Vincent Brown's program on TV3 on Thursday night to debate the incident

Yitzhak Rabin

Manic Moran wrote: »

Hey, it's not my words. The person who was there said the people were forced from the deck by water spray. There aren't many places that spray could have come from. Water cannon/squirt guns is one possibility, but I agree with your conclusion that had such been used, she probably would have used different terminology. The only other option I can think of, unless the Israelis have started using munitions filled with water, is that the firing landed in the sea causing the spray. If you have another way of matching the terminology used with the effects described, I'm willing to hear it.

NTM

An ex-royal marine commando who now is a private contractor who specialises in storming boats held by pirates, who was studying and analysing the footage reckons they were using paintball guns initially. Think that the splashes could have come from them?

Although, I have never heard of anyone, ever using paintballs on any op.

I'll find the vid, and edit it in.

EDIT: ****ty quality vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzA3Egjb79E

youcrazyjesus!

It seems, at the very least, there was extensive use of plastic bullets.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/06/20106193546785656.html

yoshytoshy

conaire1 wrote: »

Quit the bickering. I'll volunteer for the next flotilla ... and the next one.

Might do that myself ,when the isreali's come along jump overboard and call for assistance from the nearby turkish ships.
I'm sure ,in international waters ,the turks wouldn't mind helping out.

Foxtrol

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

When somebody says "fire on the ship" I believe they mean "fired" and not "threw water on us".

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.eyewitnesses/

The way you twist facts and focus in on tiny details and use them to define the situation, the way you come up with your "well in my experience only one of 2 very narrow accounts of events could possibly be valid, neither of them anything bad" is really ridiculous.

It's the military mind at work and it's pathetic. You fool nobody, except perhaps yourself. I've absolutely no respect for anything you have to say.

And how many "eye-witness" accounts will come out over the next few days from people who weren't on deck and couldn't possibly have an overall picture of what was going on. I'm taking everything that I'm hearing with a pinch of salt whether it comes from injured commandos or injured protesters. Both sides are propaganda machines and either with or without an independent investigation we're never really going to know exactly what happened because every party has a reason to fabricate the truth. The only hope is that both sides learn from this situation so nothing like this happens again.

FunnyStuff

[QUOTE=youcrazyjesus!;66187653

It wouldn't surprise me if the footage released by Israeli military was made over the last few days and is fictional.[/QUOTE]

Such a loopy suggestion.

youcrazyjesus!

Foxtrol wrote: »

And how many "eye-witness" accounts will come out over the next few days from people who weren't on deck and couldn't possibly have an overall picture of what was going on. I'm taking everything that I'm hearing with a pinch of salt whether it comes from injured commandos or injured protesters. Both sides are propaganda machines and either with or without an independent investigation we're never really going to know exactly what happened because every party has a reason to fabricate the truth. The only hope is that both sides learn from this situation so nothing like this happens again.

Both sides are not propaganda machines. Why do people do that. Would you invent this equivalence if you were talking about concentration camps during WWII? Denis Halliday is not a propaganda machine. He is someone who should be listened to (although he didn't see much I'm sure) and there are plenty of honest people on those ships, sea captains and experienced aid workers. They would have seen plenty. You're talking about hundreds of people here.

This "there's 2 sides to every story" idea is total BS. The people on board who have given accounts are academics, politicians, aid workers. They won't tell lies.

yoshytoshy

What wouldn't suprise me about what happened is ,the isreali's did threaten and intimidate before the helicopter drop.
But ,they deliberately sent down weakly armed soldiers so they could video what they did. Then when they had control ,carry out the massacre.

That's hindsight ,but propaganda nonetheless.

youcrazyjesus!

FunnyStuff wrote: »

Such a loopy suggestion.

The suggestion that the IDF would falsify documentary evidence is "loopy"?

Unless you grew up Hamish I'd have a hard time believing anybody would think so.

gandalf

Some comments from one of the Irish on the ships.

An Irish activist seized by Israeli authorities in a commando operation on an aid flotilla tonight accused armed forces of carrying out an act of piracy.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/flotilla-activist-accuses-israel-of-piracy-460027.html#ixzz0pdyKvgEJ

Echoing what most are saying the assault was an illegal one in International Waters.

FunnyStuff

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

The suggestion that the IDF would falsify documentary evidence is "loopy"?

Unless you grew up Hamish I'd have a hard time believing anybody would think so.

There is multiple videos showing the same thing, Israeli troopers rapelling down ropes to be met with iron bars and sticks and tables, so unless yr suggesting that EVERYONE made videos a few days ago, its a ridiculous suggestion.

Oh, and Hamish...... WTF????

youcrazyjesus!

deadtiger wrote: »

Some comments from one of the Irish on the ships.



Echoing what most are saying the assault was an illegal one in International Waters.

He said on TV there the commandos beat many of the women, breaking one young girl's nose.

youcrazyjesus!

FunnyStuff wrote: »

There is multiple videos showing the same thing, Israeli troopers rapelling down ropes to be met with iron bars and sticks and tables, so unless yr suggesting that EVERYONE made videos a few days ago, its a ridiculous suggestion.

Oh, and Hamish...... WTF????

The element of the video that showed a commando being engulfed by crew members when he arrived on deck is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's definitely the case, I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Ciaran500

yoshytoshy wrote: »

But ,they deliberately sent down weakly armed soldiers so they could video what they did. Then when they had control ,carry out the massacre.

Where are you getting this from? Do you really think they would ultimately plan to kill a handful of the volunteers after subduing them?

Foxtrol

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Both sides are not propaganda machines. Why do people do that. Would you invent this equivalence if you were talking about concentration camps during WWII? Denis Halliday is not a propaganda machine. He is someone who should be listened to (although he didn't see much I'm sure) and there are plenty of honest people on those ships, sea captains and experienced aid workers. They would have seen plenty. You're talking about hundreds of people here.

This "there's 2 sides to every story" idea is total BS. The people on board who have given accounts are academics, politicians, aid workers. They won't tell lies.

If you think that both sides use propaganda to different extents then theres no point in even attempting to have a discussion with you as your opinion is clearly blinkered but I shall try again nonetheless. The point I was trying to make was that all 600 people on the boat were not on the deck when the commandos landed. I also hope the world hasnt got to the point were "honest people", "experienced aid workers", "academics" and "politicians" were attacking 18 and 19 year old conscripted kids with knives and bars.

Israel are going try to influence people into to believing that it was all self defense, ignoring the fact that they landed on aid ships in international waters. The Protesters are going to say what monsters the Israelis are, ignoring the fact that images appear to show that a mob of these "humanitarians" attacked these soldiers as they landed on deck and that the idea of the trip itself was to force Israels hand into some sort of action.

yoshytoshy

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? Do you really think they would ultimately plan to kill a handful of the volunteers after subduing them?

I made an observation ,thats all. I really don't take them videos serious ,they are far too detailed and orchestrated to be on the fly.

The isrealis shouldn't have been on the ship ,thats it.

Byron85

The media spin is in overdrive at the moment.

Here's what happened: The soldiers were surprised by a mob; they saw their friends being lynched; they acted as any soldier would have and should have acted. To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire. Civilians were killed. It's no cause for pride—but also nothing to be ashamed of.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255572/?GT1=38001

I'm constantly amazed by their arrogance.

gandalf

Foxtrol wrote: »

I also hope the world hasnt got to the point were "honest people", "experienced aid workers", "academics" and "politicians" were attacking 18 and 19 year old conscripted kids with knives and bars.

I was under the impression that the boarding parties were Commandos? Experienced Special Forces, is that not the case?

If they threw raw recruits of such a tender age into a situation like this then the people in charge of the IDF are idiots of the highest magnitude.

Israel are going try to influence people into to believing that it was all self defense, ignoring the fact that they landed on aid ships in international waters. The Protesters are going to say what monsters the Israelis are, ignoring the fact that images appear to show that a mob of these "humanitarians" attacked these soldiers as they landed on deck and that the idea of the trip itself was to force Israels hand into some sort of action.

Well if the Israeli forces waited for the Flotilla to get out of International Waters they would have had some form of legitimacy for the assault. They were so arrogant that they didn't feel that this was necessary.

Then again with the US blocking everything on the UN Security council they feel that they can break all sorts of International Laws now.

Foxtrol

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I made an observation ,thats all. I really don't take them videos serious ,they are far too detailed and orchestrated to be on the fly.

The isrealis shouldn't have been on the ship ,thats it.

So you disbelieve several pieces of video evidence. I assume then that you dont believe any of the eye witness reports then from both sides?

Agreed they should not have boarded the ship the way that they did. I do also believe the flotilla itself set out with the aim of a confrontation with the IDF and unfortunately they got what they were looking for but with tragic consequences I assume none imagined.

yoshytoshy

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you disbelieve several pieces of video evidence. I assume then that you dont believe any of the eye witness reports then from both sides?

Agreed they should not have boarded the ship the way that they did. I do also believe the flotilla itself set out with the aim of a confrontation with the IDF and unfortunately they got what they were looking for but with tragic consequences I assume none imagined.

I'm talking about on the fly and orchestrated. Freestyle vs Bach.

weepee

Some nice video released by the IDF to try and once again, play the victim. If masked and armed men drop out of the sky onto your boat in the middle of the eastern Med, what do you do?

Foxtrol

deadtiger wrote: »

I was under the impression that the boarding parties were Commandos? Experienced Special Forces, is that not the case?

If they threw raw recruits of such a tender age into a situation like this then the people in charge of the IDF are idiots of the highest magnitude.

We dont know what level they were. I would assume they would be fully trained but we'll never know for sure so peoples perception may be wrong. The IDF have proved to be naive and potentially completely incompetent when it came to this incident but will hopefully use what they have learned in the probable interception of the Irish Boat on Thursday.

Well if the Israeli forces waited for the Flotilla to get out of International Waters they would have had some form of legitimacy for the assault. They were so arrogant that they didn't feel that this was necessary.

I dont think they were ever going to enter their waters so it probably made more sense to the IDF to surprise the flotilla further out to sea.

Then again with the US blocking everything on the UN Security council they feel that they can break all sorts of International Laws now.

With the elections coming up Obama will never call out Israel.

FunnyStuff

deadtiger wrote: »

I was under the impression that the boarding parties were Commandos? Experienced Special Forces, is that not the case?

If they threw raw recruits of such a tender age into a situation like this then the people in charge of the IDF are idiots of the highest magnitude.

In Israel, it is a legal requirement for all to undergo two years of military service. So even though they are well trained soldiers (and this is a widely recognised fact) they are in essence, conscripts, unless they actually do decide to stay on after their initial two year service.

gandalf

FunnyStuff wrote: »

In Israel, it is a legal requirement for all to undergo two years of military service. So even though they are well trained soldiers (and this is a widely recognised fact) they are in essence, conscripts, unless they actually do decide to stay on after their initial two year service.

And you know for a fact that greenhorn conscripts were used on this operation?

Or are you assuming that they used inexperienced soldiers?

Foxtrol

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I'm talking about on the fly and orchestrated. Freestyle vs Bach.

So then you'd have preferred if Neil Armstrong just came back to earth and told a few reporters that "Oh yeah the moon was great" rather than seeing the pictures?

gandalf

Foxtrol wrote: »

We dont know what level they were. I would assume they would be fully trained but we'll never know for sure so peoples perception may be wrong. The IDF have proved to be naive and potentially completely incompetent when it came to this incident but will hopefully use what they have learned in the probable interception of the Irish Boat on Thursday.

Would it not strike you as extremely foolish to send conscripts onto a ship for a mission like this. It sounds like the people planning this whole fiasco did not have a clue what they were doing.

By botching this up so badly they have handed the enemies of Israel a major propaganda coup.

I dont think they were ever going to enter their waters so it probably made more sense to the IDF to surprise the flotilla further out to sea.

But by assaulting the ships where they did they are clearly in International Waters and it is an illegal operation. Technically by attacking a Turkish flagged vessel they have declared war on Turkey and they have also kidnapped everyone they took off those boats.

Hardly the behaviour of a democratic state, more like something we would expect to read about happening off the coast of Somali.

With the elections coming up Obama will never call out Israel.

Of course they won't, In Foxnews we trust :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The media spin is in overdrive at the moment.

Here's what happened: The soldiers were surprised by a mob; they saw their friends being lynched; they acted as any soldier would have and should have acted. To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire. Civilians were killed. It's no cause for pride—but also nothing to be ashamed of.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255572/?GT1=38001

I'm constantly amazed by their arrogance.

An impressive piece of leaving off the entire context. Let's run that little quote over a couple of thought experiments:

Situation: two soldiers go into a gay bar, and abuse the customers, and the customers attack them with barstools and bottles...a military patrol is called, and:

Here's what happened: The soldiers were surprised by a mob; they saw their friends being lynched; they acted as any soldier would have and should have acted. To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire. Civilians were killed. It's no cause for pride—but also nothing to be ashamed of.

Yes, that works. How about this one:

Situation: soldiers are being used for policing at a football match. As rival groups of fans clash, a couple of soldiers trying to hold them apart are overwhelmed by the crowd...and:

Here's what happened: The soldiers were surprised by a mob; they saw their friends being lynched; they acted as any soldier would have and should have acted. To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire. Civilians were killed. It's no cause for pride—but also nothing to be ashamed of.

That works too. Gosh, perhaps that's why we don't use armed soldiers to police football matches?

How about a demo?

Situation: soldiers are policing a demonstration. At some point, angry demonstrators attack a couple of soldiers....and:

Here's what happened: The soldiers were surprised by a mob; they saw their friends being lynched; they acted as any soldier would have and should have acted. To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire. Civilians were killed. It's no cause for pride—but also nothing to be ashamed of.

Surprise! You can excuse anything, as long as you leave off the context. Indeed, we can kick this all the way up:

Situation: soldiers searching a wedding party in Afghanistan molest the bride. They are attacked by angry members of the families...and:

Here's what happened: The soldiers were surprised by a mob; they saw their friends being lynched; they acted as any soldier would have and should have acted. To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire. Civilians were killed. It's no cause for pride—but also nothing to be ashamed of.

Works every time. "To save their fellow soldiers, they opened fire" - that's not soldiers as a disciplined arm of the state, that's soldiers as a law unto themselves, as a group set apart from and above any other.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Foxtrol

deadtiger wrote: »

And you know for a fact that greenhorn conscripts were used on this operation?

Or are you assuming that they used inexperienced soldiers?

No we have no facts. People are making assumptions. The big burly commandos who were being stabbed and beaten with iron bars could have been 20 year old girls. Though it could be potentially a great PR coup for the IDF to wheel out an injured young girl they wont because they know that they'll probably get crucified for putting someone unprepared into this situation.

All I've been trying to say all day is that yes the IDF were wrong to land on the boat in international waters but we dont know what happened on that boat and its very doubtful due to the vested interests (on both sides) that we'll ever properly know.