Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

gandalf

Well I am glad to see you agree that the IDF were wrong to board the boat in International Waters Foxtrol.

Now I am off to bed before my wife gets all IDF on my ass

HavingCrack

I don't know why people are getting so worked up about the Americans effectively endorsing the Israeli response. The good old USA has used similar methods in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia etc. They're in no position to criticise the Israelis.

Foxtrol

deadtiger wrote: »

Would it not strike you as extremely foolish to send conscripts onto a ship for a mission like this. It sounds like the people planning this whole fiasco did not have a clue what they were doing.

By botching this up so badly they have handed the enemies of Israel a major propaganda coup.

A vast number of the IDF are conscripts so its not beyond belief that some could have been part of this mission. There's also a decent chance that there were some extremists on the flotilla who may have taken the opportunity to attack seemingly easy Israelis. Do I know anything for sure? No. Does anyone here know? No

But by assaulting the ships where they did they are clearly in International Waters and it is an illegal operation. Technically by attacking a Turkish flagged vessel they have declared war on Turkey and they have also kidnapped everyone they took off those boats.

Hardly the behaviour of a democratic state, more like something we would expect to read about happening off the coast of Somali.

From that report posted a page or two back the boat is apparently under some pacific island flag. Israel has never conformed to standard actions of a normal "democratic state". With the neighbors they have I can see why they see fit to basically become vigilantes. (Im not saying I agree with or condone, just that I can see why they do what they do)

Of course they won't, In Foxnews we trust :rolleyes:

I actually wouldnt be surprised to see them have a pop or two at Obama over this.

Run_to_da_hills

Jews celebrating the flotilla massacre in Tel Aviv outside the Turkish embassy

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

the_syco

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Jews celebrating the flotilla massacre in Tel Aviv outside the Turkish embassy

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

Footage posted about 4 hours ago. I don't know what their signs say, but for all I know it could be a move of solidarity, expressing that they (the people) sympathise with the Turkish government.

BlaasForRafa

Foxtrol wrote: »

A vast number of the IDF are conscripts so its not beyond belief that some could have been part of this mission. There's also a decent chance that there were some extremists on the flotilla who may have taken the opportunity to attack seemingly easy Israelis. Do I know anything for sure? No. Does anyone here know? No

We know that S13, the Naval Commandos were the troops used in this mission, they are not conscripts. They have a long record of fighting and killing land based hezbollah troops in sea and helicopter landings. S13 are trained to kill armed enemies, they are not troops used to riot control situations as in this case.

There are specific reasons why this escalated, based on footage that has been released by both sides so far:

1: not enough troops landed quickly enough
2: there was a mob (some of whom were waiting armed with clubs in the stairwell leading to the deck, see tonights Newsnight for that footage) waiting for them
3:they caught the first troops when at their most vulnerable at the bottom of their descent.
4: because heavy asbestos gloves are needed to fast-rope down they weren't actually holding their paintball or beanbag guns during the descent and the first troops were attacked before they could access them.
5: at least two pistols were taken from soldiers while they were being beaten with iron bars and wooden clubs. this is when troops got permission to defend themselves with their pistols.

The troops used were tough and experienced but most importantly not the right troops for that particular situation. In my view they shouldn't have boarded at all, other means should have been used to stop the ship.

themont85

Foxtrol wrote: »

I actually wouldnt be surprised to see them have a pop or two at Obama over this.

Oh they did, they brought on some right wing commentator on the O'Reilly show who claimed Obama had been 'disrespecting' Israel since he gained office :rolleyes: This after the 'Joe Biden' incident, the passport fiasco and now this. Beggars belief.

eamo12

jonsnow wrote: »

Not that it would ever ever happen.but the turkish navy would crush the israeli navy.

The israeli navy is a glorified coastguard while the turkish navy ranks eighth in the world in terms of staff, with 51,000 active personnel; and third largest in Europe in terms of the displacement of the total fleet, with 258,948 tons

Invincible, just like the combined arab forces during the 6 day war.

K-9

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Jews celebrating the flotilla massacre in Tel Aviv outside the Turkish embassy

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

Crap like this makes me cringe.

Did you actually try and employ critical faculties on this?

Scofflaw

eamo12 wrote: »

Invincible, just like the combined arab forces during the 6 day war.

This is not a good thread for willy comparisons.

moderately,
Scofflaw

snow ghost

eamo12 wrote: »

Invincible, just like the combined arab forces during the 6 day war.

Invincible for Israel... seeing as Turkey are members of NATO.

Given how much Israel are despised throughout the World it is likely that even non NATO countries would side with Turkey.

Scofflaw

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Jews celebrating the flotilla massacre in Tel Aviv outside the Turkish embassy

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

Let me point out that the religion of the people in the video is irrelevant, whatever they may or may not be doing. If I see another comment from you that brings Judaism into the the discussion for no reason, you'll get a nice long ban.

[EDIT]The video you link to is captioned "Israelis celebrating attack on Turkish Aid Ship - in front of Turkish Embassy,Tel Aviv " - why did you feel it was necessary to change that to "Jews"?[/EDIT]

moderately,
Scofflaw

bernardo mac

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Jews celebrating the flotilla massacre in Tel Aviv outside the Turkish embassy

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

Surely not beyond Them to Nuke a perceived enemy.

eamo12

I think it is a perfectly good comparison. The combined forces back then far outnumbered the Israelis in terms of manpower and equipment. If someone believes the Turkish government would overpower Israel in a war, then history proves they should think again.

eamo12

snow ghost wrote: »

Given how much Israel are despised throughout the World it is likely that even non NATO countries would side with Turkey.

In your dreams. NATO will not side with a bunch of failed middle east states against the only democracy in the region.

eoin5

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Irish to be released tomorrow and not deported

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-gaza-activists-to-be-released-tomorrow-460020.html

Theres no Israeli statement about the release? Thats strange. I would've thought they would say they were doing it as an international gesture of goodwill blah-di-blah and not because they were wrong in any way. Maybe the report didnt include it?

Foxtrol

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

We know that S13, the Naval Commandos were the troops used in this mission, they are not conscripts. They have a long record of fighting and killing land based hezbollah troops in sea and helicopter landings. S13 are trained to kill armed enemies, they are not troops used to riot control situations as in this case.

There are specific reasons why this escalated, based on footage that has been released by both sides so far:

1: not enough troops landed quickly enough
2: there was a mob (some of whom were waiting armed with clubs in the stairwell leading to the deck, see tonights Newsnight for that footage) waiting for them
3:they caught the first troops when at their most vulnerable at the bottom of their descent.
4: because heavy asbestos gloves are needed to fast-rope down they weren't actually holding their paintball or beanbag guns during the descent and the first troops were attacked before they could access them.
5: at least two pistols were taken from soldiers while they were being beaten with iron bars and wooden clubs. this is when troops got permission to defend themselves with their pistols.

The troops used were tough and experienced but most importantly not the right troops for that particular situation. In my view they shouldn't have boarded at all, other means should have been used to stop the ship.

Obviously didnt know some of that info on the troops used.

Couldn't agree more with you on all of the rest.

BlaasForRafa

Foxtrol wrote: »

Obviously didnt know some of that info on the troops used.

Couldn't agree more with you on all of the rest.

No worries, just trying to clarify things a bit.

K-9

Its nice to see protest like that in Turkey though. That link may come in handy on other debates.

Remy13

eamo12 wrote: »

In your dreams. NATO will not side with a bunch of failed middle east states against the only democracy in the region.

i thought Iraq & Afghanistan were democracies?

alastair

Sand wrote: »

Guys - universal human rights is a principle. I stress universal. Its sad that you try to differentiate between human beings and what support they can and should expect from an idealogical humanitarian organisation like the UN based on their nationality.

It's not to do with nationality, but with timescales and the UN's manadate.

Khmer Rouge - 4 year timespan, human rights abuses primarily domestic.
Israel - 60+ year lifespan so far, human rights abuses primarily international.

The UN is a body with a mandate for international arbitration and engagement. It has no real mandate with regard to purely domestic national affairs. 60 years is a lot longer than 4. It doesn't take much to join the dots.

jank

eamo12 wrote: »

In your dreams. NATO will not side with a bunch of failed middle east states against the only democracy in the region.

Maybe you should look up what NATO is. An attack on one member state is an attack on all. If Israel attacked Turkey first then by the terms of the NATO Treaty USA, GB, France, Germany etc would have to go to war with Israel....

The other middle east countries could just sit on the sideline and watch Israel burn, why would they get involved?

Of course of all this is hypothetical. See this time I think Israel has bitten off a little more than it can chew. Its one thing killing Arabs in Syria, or Jordon or the west bank, who in the west cares about them, right? But attacking a NATO member and a future possible member of the EU, their "supposedly" strongest alley in the region. Well if they treat their friends like that....

Its all Hubris from Israel at the moment and it will lead to their downfall in the long run unless they change tact.

K-9

jank wrote: »

Its all Hubris from Israel at the moment and it will lead to their downfall in the long run unless they change tact.

Ideally this, rather than the other alternative.

alastair

Remy13 wrote: »

i thought Iraq & Afghanistan were democracies?

Afghanistan isn't in the middle east. Lebanon is though - and it's a democracy. Palestine had fair democratic elections in 2006, but then split over Hamas winning said fair elections, so what it's current democratic status is uncertain.

snow ghost

eamo12 wrote: »

In your dreams. NATO will not side with a bunch of failed middle east states against the only democracy in the region.

NATO would obviously have to side with Turkey.

The rest of the World - that is outside Israel - comprises a lot more countries than middle east states.

Israel is so widely despised due to the actions of its governments that it is hard to believe they would have any allies, given that the US prizes Turkey as a NATO member more than it does Israel as a convenient mad dog in the middle east. That is a reality that even Israel are aware of - Turkey is the US's front line in regards to Russia, China and the East... of much more importance than Israel.

Won't be long before America loses patience with Israel and cuts them loose.

Manic Moran

Maybe you should look up what NATO is. An attack on one member state is an attack on all. If Israel attacked Turkey first then by the terms of the NATO Treaty USA, GB, France, Germany etc would have to go to war with Israel....

Didn't apply in 1982, it won't apply now.

There's a small little detail in the NATO treaty which has a geographic requirement in Article 5. Gaza is outside this geographical region. Attacks on NATO members outside of the area covered in the NATO treaty do not invoke the alliance requirements, so if a Turkish ship did come to blows when escorting a ship into Gaza, Turkey would be on its own. Unless other countries chose to assist, but there is no obligation. This is why even though Argentina sank a number of Royal Navy warships, the NATO treaty was not invoked.

NTM

jank

Manic Moran wrote: »

Didn't apply in 1982, it won't apply now.

There's a small little detail in the NATO treaty which has a geographic requirement in Article 5. Gaza is outside this geographical region. Attacks on NATO members outside of the area covered in the NATO treaty do not invoke the alliance requirements, so if a Turkish ship did come to blows when escorting a ship into Gaza, Turkey would be on its own. Unless other countries chose to assist, but there is no obligation. This is why even though Argentina sank a number of Royal Navy warships, the NATO treaty was not invoked.

NTM

What about international waters? Is that covered in the geographic requirement?

Nodin

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The media spin is in overdrive at the moment.




http://www.slate.com/id/2255572/?GT1=38001

I'm constantly amazed by their arrogance.

Had the misfortune to hear Mark Regev on CH4 news yesterday

Mark Snow - 'Are you going to apologise?' (to turkey)
Regev - "For what?"

Byron85

Nodin wrote: »

Had the misfortune to hear Mark Regev on CH4 news yesterday

Mark Snow - 'Are you going to apologise?' (to turkey)
Regev - "For what?"

I saw that video too and posted it in here. Snow gave him a good going over.

bambooze

What is the IHH?


The turkish aid group which organised the flotilla.. those oh so innocent humanitarians who showed themselves to be quite handy with a club..


"According to the Israeli NGO The Intelligence and Information Center, the IHH is affiliated with Hamas and the Union of the Good, an Islamic umbrella affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood."

Yes I know you're all going to say "israeli ngo?? they are all liars". So, read on..

"In 2006, a report issued by the Danish Institute for International Studies stated that during the 1990s the IHH maintained links with al-Qaida and a number of "global jihad networks." The report also said that the Turkish government launched an investigation into the IHH starting December 1997 after receiving intelligence that the IHH had bought automatic weapons from Islamist terrorists."

So, the Danes also make sh!t up? Read on..

"The report said that following the revelation, the Turkish government launched a raid on the organization’s Istanbul offices, where they found weapons, explosives, and instructions for bomb-making. The report added that an examination of documents found at the IHH office indicated that the group was planning to take part in terrorist activities in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Bosnia."

Hmm.. sounds like a nice bunch of chaps. Salt o' the earth types. Read on..

"According to the study, a French intelligence report found that in the mid-1990s IHH leader B’ulent Yildirim recruited soldiers for jihad activities in a number of Muslim countries and that the IHH transferred money, firearms, and explosives to jihadists in said countries."

Oh those french can't be trusted also, right?

More enlightening reading..
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177167


Well I don't know about you guys but I'd have no problems trusting the IHH to arrange a peaceful flotilla..