Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

gandalf

So basically we had a Israeli spokemans last night trying to convince the presenter on Newnight that this was a simple Policing operating thanks to BlaasForRafa we now know it was Shayetet 13 an elite Israel Defense Forces naval Special forces unit. Hardly the type of asset one would use for a simple Policing operation, it is one more adept at assassinations and combat incursions.

Theres a good article in todays Independent from Michael Martin.

Here's a snippet

IN line with the vast majority of Irish people, I was appalled by Monday's events involving the storming of the Turkish vessel, the Mavi Marmara, by the Israeli military, which resulted in at least 10 people killed and the detention of vessels containing humanitarian goods bound for Gaza.

The deployment of the Israeli military was completely disproportionate to the situation and its actions utterly unacceptable.

I fully understand the real public anger which exists. I share the general frustration at the needless loss of life and at the continuing humanitarian suffering and collective punishment of the people of Gaza.

What I find particularly disturbing is that the Israeli government has again chosen to regard its security concerns as overriding all other considerations, to the extent of allowing its military to violently board a civilian ship on a humanitarian mission. Respect for international law has been completely disregarded and undermined and the international community needs to leave Israel in no doubt about what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable behaviour by any government or state.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/micheal-martin-pressure-must-be-stepped-up-against-israel-2203281.html

As an aside it looks like an Israeli diplomat may be expelled for the passportgate affair as well.

TOP OFFICIALS from several Government departments and the Garda have recommended the expulsion of an Israeli embassy security officer after concluding that Israel forged Irish passports used by suspects in the murder of a Hamas official in Dubai.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0602/1224271678155.html

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

"According to the Israeli NGO The Intelligence and Information Center, the IHH is affiliated with Hamas and the Union of the Good, an Islamic umbrella affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood."

The Israeli 'NGO' is a ex-Israeli military intelligence blog that lacks any credibility whatsoever - it's sole intent is to tarnish every aspect of Palestinain activity - take some time and read their material - http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/site/home/default.asp

Despite the claims of 'The Intelligence and Information Center' the referenced Danish paper btw says nothing about any links between IHH and Hamas. Not one word. You can check yourself - http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS WP 2006-7.web.pdf

Nodin

bambooze wrote: »

Well I don't know about you guys but I'd have no problems trusting the IHH to arrange a peaceful flotilla..

....and seeing as all your posts - and I do mean all - are related to this sole issue, thats hardly suprising.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

The Israeli 'NGO' is a ex-Israeli military intelligence blog that lacks any credibility whatsoever - it's sole intent is to tarnish every aspect of Palestinain activity - take some time and read their material - http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/site/home/default.asp

Despite the claims of 'The Intelligence and Information Center' the referenced Danish paper btw says nothing about any links between IHH and Hamas. Not one word. You can check yourself - http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS WP 2006-7.web.pdf

It says plenty about IHH links to islamic jihadist groups.. and are weapons and explosives standard kit for humanitarians these days? From that pdf..

IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

It says plenty about IHH links to islamic jihadist groups.. and are weapons and explosives standard kit for humanitarians these days?

What explosives or weapons were on the flotilla? Can you understand the distinction between IHH members and the organisation? Has Turkey proscribed the organisation or just some of it's members? Did Israel charge any of these so-called terrorists they detained with any crime?

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

What explosives or weapons were on the flotilla? Can you understand the distinction between IHH members and the organisation? Has Turkey proscribed the organisation or just some of it's members? Did Israel charge any of these so-called terrorists they detained with any crime?

Ok so lets say the IRA decided to send a "peace flotilla" to Belfast at the height of the troubles.. 6 ships filled with hundreds of IRA affiliated activists and masses of supplies..

You can honestly say you think the British would not and should not be the least bit suspicious? You yourself would take the word of the IRA if they told you there's "nothing to see here"?

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

Ok so lets say the IRA decided to send a "peace flotilla" to Belfast at the height of the troubles.. 6 ships filled with hundreds of IRA affiliated activists and masses of supplies..

You can honestly say you think the British would not and should not be the least bit suspicious? You yourself would take the word of the IRA if they told you there's "nothing to see here"?

Since we're drawing parallels, the British had a tendency to carry military style executions on suspected terrorists and civilians. Israel on the other hand....oh wait a second.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Ok so lets say the IRA decided to send a "peace flotilla" to Belfast at the height of the troubles.. 6 ships filled with hundreds of IRA affiliated activists and masses of supplies..

You can honestly say you think the British would not and should not be the least bit suspicious? You yourself would take the word of the IRA if they told you there's "nothing to see here"?

The IRA is a proscribed organisation, with clear violent intent. Or in other words - pretty much nothing like IHH. And you seem to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the hundreds on the flotilla ships were members of other groups.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

What explosives or weapons were on the flotilla? Can you understand the distinction between IHH members and the organisation? Has Turkey proscribed the organisation or just some of it's members? Did Israel charge any of these so-called terrorists they detained with any crime?

What? Seriously dude? You are trying to say that the IHH had nothing to do with it, it was just the IHH members in the IHH premises? So who exactly arranged this flotilla? The IHH organisation? Or could it be the IHH members? Coz I'm not quite seeing how an inanimate company or charity formation document could do much on its own without actual, you know, people!

As for what was on the flotilla - it was IHH members (or people recruited by IHH members) - you know, not actually the IHH itself of course. So umm.. what does that mean? The IHH is fine and dandy, the members are the dodgy terrorist types.. and they were on the flotilla playing tiddlywinks with the israelis.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

The IRA is a proscribed organisation, with clear violent intent. Or in other words - pretty much nothing like IHH. And you seem to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the hundreds on the flotilla ships were members of other groups.

The IHH, with apparently known jihadist links (according to that doc and others), caught red handed with weapons and in this case trying to send supplies to Hamas (a recognized terror group) through an israeli military blockade.. yes I see now, their hands are completely clean.

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

caught red handed with weapons and in this case trying to send supplies to Hamas (a recognized terror group)

No they haven't and no they didn't. You are intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

What? Seriously dude? You are trying to say that the IHH had nothing to do with it, it was just the IHH members in the IHH premises? So who exactly arranged this flotilla? The IHH organisation? Or could it be the IHH members? Coz I'm not quite seeing how an inanimate company or charity formation document could do much on its own without actual, you know, people!

As for what was on the flotilla - it was IHH members (or people recruited by IHH members) - you know, not actually the IHH itself of course. So umm.. what does that mean? The IHH is fine and dandy, the members are the dodgy terrorist types.. and they were on the flotilla playing tiddlywinks with the israelis.

Let me break it down so you can understand:

1. The organisation hasn't been proscribed by Turkey, so therefore any issues it's had with them relate, not to the organisation, but to individuals within the organisation.

2. Individuals have a capacity (and tendency) to act independently of other individuals. Just because individual X within IHH does or believes a particular thing, doesn't imply that individual Y might as well. Just because all poodles are dogs, doesn't mean that all dogs are poodles.

3. Turkey - the state that should have issues with IHH as an organisation, if all of the above is true, is standing over the credentials of the humanitarian intent of the flotilla.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

The IHH, with apparently known jihadist links (according to that doc and others), caught red handed with weapons and in this case trying to send supplies to Hamas (a recognized terror group) through an israeli military blockade.. yes I see now, their hands are completely clean.

You mean the 'sophisticated' weapons. I get it now; IHH was smuggling in jars of pebbles to supply Hamas with the kind of ordinance they couldn't just pick up off the ground. No wonder the IDF had to shoot so many of them!

bambooze

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

No they haven't

Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.”

and no they didn't.

Eh? Last I checked the stated aim was to break the blockade and send supplies to gaza which is ruled by hamas.

You are intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue.

Evidence suggesting the IHH involvement in islamic terrorism is obfuscating the issue??

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

You mean the 'sophisticated' weapons. I get it now; IHH was smuggling in jars of pebbles to supply Hamas with the kind of ordinance they couldn't just pick up off the ground. No wonder the IDF had to shoot so many of them!

I said nothing about weapons on board (but feel free to experience the joy of a slingshot fired stone or metal bar on the head to show how harmless they are). I am talking about IHH people on board.. those involved in the fighting. Those with no passports, being shipped to gaza/hamas.

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.


Evidence suggesting the IHH involvement in islamic terrorism is obfuscating the issue??

So knives and sticks are now being upgraded to firearms, explosives and a jihad flag!?!?!

You have shown no evidence. Only biased conjecture.

20Cent

Looks like Israel have managed to kill more people in two hours than Hamas's rain of rockets have for many years.

irishconvert

bambooze, do you have any links to the IDF or Israeli Government? What country are you posting from? Are you Israeli?

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

Let me break it down so you can understand:

1. The organisation hasn't been proscribed by Turkey, so therefore any issues it's had with them relate, not to the organisation, but to individuals within the organisation.

2. Individuals have a capacity (and tendency) to act independently of other individuals. Just because individual X within IHH does or believes a particular thing, doesn't imply that individual Y might as well. Just because all poodles are dogs, doesn't mean that all dogs are poodles.

3. Turkey - the state that should have issues with IHH as an organisation, if all of the above is true, is standing over the credentials of the humanitarian intent of the flotilla.

Its a matter of credibility and reasonable doubt - IHH members were involved in jihadist terror, IHH sends flotilla to hamas run gaza. Common sense dictates that suspicion is warranted. Certain people on the flotilla did engage in violent confrontation and they were prepared for it.

bambooze

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

So knives and sticks are now being upgraded to firearms, explosives and a jihad flag!?!?!

You have shown no evidence. Only biased conjecture.

Not at all. The firearms and bombs were found in IHH offices in turkey in a raid by turkish police as described in the danish doc linked earlier.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.”

They're really trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel here in their attempts to whitewash this fckup. If it was an operation to smuggle arms it was probably the most amateur attempt in the history of smuggling.

Eh? Last I checked the stated aim was to break the blockade and send supplies to gaza which is ruled by hamas.

Well loads of us fired money at Live Aid to bring supplies to Ethiopia which had quite a few dodgy rulers all over the place. People brought supplies into Bosnia when that kicked off. Again more barrel scraping.

Evidence suggesting the IHH involvement in islamic terrorism is obfuscating the issue??

Yes it is. Look at the objective truth in all of this. Not the PR or BS on both sides. Though with you I cant see this happening anytime soon TBH.

The PR campaign that Israel is running is really daft. Watched the Israeli rep to the US on TV last night. The usual guff. "Imagine the us coastguard was involved in a police action that could save innocent americans... bla bla bla". Might work on many sadly misinformed and scared of "Reds ragheads under the bed" Americans who are watching their own sons and daughters being killed or mutilated in another BS "war on terror", but it doesnt fly so easily in Europe.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

I am talking about IHH people on board.. those involved in the fighting. Those with no passports, being shipped to gaza/hamas.

heh. So now we're claiming that the flotilla was a trojan horse to get nefarious characters into Gaza to do what exactly? The place is locked down solidly. And who exactly are these mysterious passport-less people? Israel hasn't mentioned them - and they've managed to issue deportation orders to all and sundry on the ships.

bambooze

irishconvert wrote: »

bambooze, do you have any links to the IDF or Israeli Government? What country are you posting from? Are you Israeli?

I've said before I am in israel, I am not from israel and I am not jewish (irish actually) and I am certainly not working for the gov or anything like it.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

heh. So now we're claiming that the flotilla was a trojan horse to get nefarious characters into Gaza to do what exactly? The place is locked down solidly. And who exactly are these mysterious passport-less people? Israel hasn't mentioned them - and they've managed to issue deportation orders to all and sundry on the ships.

To do what those jihadist types that go off to join jihadist groups in places like iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, somalia and gaza usually do. Its hardly an unknown phenomenon.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.”

For clarity this is not referring to the aid ships that were assaulted by Israeli Special Forces earlier this week. (Just in case people take it out of context which I am sure you don't want )

Eh? Last I checked the stated aim was to break the blockade and send supplies to gaza which is ruled by hamas.

I think the aim was to send supplies to the people of Gaza.

Evidence suggesting the IHH involvement in islamic terrorism is obfuscating the issue??

As others have said they are not a prescribed Terrorist organisation. They may have individuals who have extreme views as all organisations do. I believe the Israeli government have members who want to shoot Palestinian prisoners that doesn't make the whole of the government extremists does it?

FunnyStuff

deadtiger wrote: »

And you know for a fact that greenhorn conscripts were used on this operation?

Or are you assuming that they used inexperienced soldiers?

Show me where i said that, read the post again.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Its a matter of credibility and reasonable doubt - IHH members were involved in jihadist terror, IHH sends flotilla to hamas run gaza. Common sense dictates that suspicion is warranted. Certain people on the flotilla did engage in violent confrontation and they were prepared for it.

Common sense would dictate that Turkey stands over the humanitarian intent of the flotilla, that the majority of people involved are from outside IHH, that defending yourself from an illegal invasion by armed figures in the dead of night is fairly understandable 'violent confrontation', and that, if the supposed preparations involved hitting well-armed soldiers with deckchairs, then those preparations are pretty last-minute.

Wibbs

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

So knives and sticks are now being upgraded to firearms, explosives and a jihad flag!?!?!

You have shown no evidence. Only biased conjecture.

Oh they're still touting the we had incoming small arms fire. The guy in the US threw that out in a under the breath weasel fashion. They're trotting it out all over the place, hoping some mud sticks. One story had it that they had their weapons taken from them, yet in the same PR story they stated they were receiving small arms fire from the start(of and firebombs). Yet with all the pipes, "flags" and boxes of stones, where are the small arms? Oh thats' right there arent any. Were they throwing rounds at them? There may be BS on both sides, but my god the Israeli BS is so high one would get altitude sickness climbing it.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

To do what those jihadist types that go off to join jihadist groups in places like iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, somalia and gaza usually do. Its hardly an unknown phenomenon.

Eh, if you want to fight the Israelis, you go to Israel, or failing that, the West Bank. There are no Israelis to fight in Gaza.