Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Zulu

When we cut through all the BS & lies, the simple facts remain:

Israeli commandos murdered unarmed civilian aid workers in international waters.

Now dress it up anyway you want; spin it any way you want, but you can't hide from the facts; from the truth.

For shame Israel, for shame. And shame on those who'd choose to actively obfuscate the truth or hide the disgrace. There's blood on Israels hands today, if you want to shake that hand that says far more about you than words could describe.

Byron85

"Do you agree that the forging of another country's passports is illegal under international law?"

"I have no comment."


The above conversation just took place on Rte Radio 1 less then 5 minutes ago between the host and the deputy Israeli ambassador.

alastair

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh they're still touting the we had incoming small arms fire. The guy in the US threw that out in a under the breath weasel fashion. They're trotting it out all over the place, hoping some mud sticks. One story had it that they had their weapons taken from them, yet in the same PR story they stated they were receiving small arms fire from the start(of and firebombs). Yet with all the pipes, "flags" and boxes of stones, where are the small arms? Oh thats' right there arent any. Were they throwing rounds at them? There may be BS on both sides, but my god the Israeli BS is so high one would get altitude sickness climbing it.

There were two sidearms taken from the commandos, and maybe they were fired upon with them, maybe not - no IDF soldier was shot. They're fudging the issue because its a bit embarrassing. What's unambiguous is that they're not claiming there were any guns on board before they brought them on board.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

I've said before I am in israel, I am not from israel and I am not jewish (irish actually) and I am certainly not working for the gov or anything like it.

Why the blind faith in every bit of news that comes out of Israel then? Why not step back take a deep breath and try to look at things objectively then?

Wibbs

alastair wrote: »

There were two sidearms taken from the commandos, and maybe they were fired upon with them, maybe not - no IDF soldier was shot. They're fudging the issue because its a bit embarrassing. What's unambiguous is that they're not claiming there were any guns on board before they brought them on board.

Oh they have said that they were fired upon the second they hit the deck. That was the first story that came out. I suppose they're backing down on that one when they didnt find any small arms. Fair play in one way. They didnt plant any.

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

They're really trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel here in their attempts to whitewash this fckup. If it was an operation to smuggle arms it was probably the most amateur attempt in the history of smuggling.

I never said anything about smuggling arms.

Yes it is. Look at the objective truth in all of this. Not the PR or BS on both sides. Though with you I cant see this happening anytime soon TBH.

The fact is we have an aid flotilla organized by a group with a dubious background, being sent to gaza which is ruled by an even more dubious group, which refused to turn back despite multiple warnings, which refused to use accepted aid routes to gaza, and when boarded resorted to extreme violence as exceptionally clear in the video. This is not to say all the other foreigners had any idea what they were getting into and its not to say Israel is blameless, it could have been handled better.

None of that is PR or BS. No amount of wishful thinking will change those facts and completely ignoring them just discredits you all.

The PR campaign that Israel is running is really daft. Watched the Israeli rep to the US on TV last night.

Well I haven't seen any TV but it doesn't surprise me, they always say the daftest things and mismanage every PR situation.

sceptre

I see personalisation of the discussion in recent posts (some now deleted). That will stop please. You all know where the report post button is. Back seat moderators are not currently required, nor are they required in the future.

/mod

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

The fact is we have an aid flotilla organized by a group with a dubious background, being sent to gaza which is ruled by an even more dubious group, which refused to turn back despite multiple warnings, which refused to use accepted aid routes to gaza, and when boarded resorted to extreme violence as exceptionally clear in the video. This is not to say all the other foreigners had any idea what they were getting into and its not to say Israel is blameless, it could have been handled better.

None of that is PR or BS. No amount of wishful thinking will change those facts and completely ignoring them just discredits you all.

1. The flotilla had no obligation to turn back until it entered Gazan waters.
2. The most 'extreme violence' employed on the ship was the homicidal violence acted out by the heavily-armed military engaged in a criminal act - and that's a fact.
3. The 'dubious' NGO's flotilla has the full backing of the state that you claim gives legitimacy to that 'suspicion'.

bambooze

deadtiger wrote: »

For clarity this is not referring to the aid ships that were assaulted by Israeli Special Forces earlier this week. (Just in case people take it out of context which I am sure you don't want )

I dont and I already clarified that in another post. The weapons found was in a turkish raid on IHH some time ago as referenced in the danish doc posted earlier.

I think the aim was to send supplies to the people of Gaza.

Indeed, but such supplies go through hamas at the moment. Also "breaking the blockade" was actually stated as an aim by one of the leaders.

As others have said they are not a prescribed Terrorist organisation. They may have individuals who have extreme views as all organisations do. I believe the Israeli government have members who want to shoot Palestinian prisoners that doesn't make the whole of the government extremists does it?

But does it make you distrust israel? Seems that most here do. So by the same reasoning, israel has every right to distrust anything involving the IHH.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

Eh, if you want to fight the Israelis, you go to Israel, or failing that, the West Bank. There are no Israelis to fight in Gaza.

No you go join an anti-israel jihadist group in pali areas (mainly gaza now but yes also the west bank or if really hardcore you could try lebanon).. going to israel would leave you on your own feeling a bit silly.

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

.



But does it make you distrust israel? Seems that most here do. So by the same reasoning, israel has every right to distrust anything involving the IHH.

I think the reason people tend to distrust Israel is because of it's continual flouting of international law, and the many times it has been caught out lying about various incidents. People do not tend to believe a state/regime that has previously been found to be dishonest, without good reason.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

Why the blind faith in every bit of news that comes out of Israel then? Why not step back take a deep breath and try to look at things objectively then?

I've seen very little of that here from others so far. :P

I dont have blind faith, I only started posting after seeing those fairly damning vids. I call it like I see it and typically israel gets raked over the coals no matter what the evidence later shows, this time I decided to join the discussion.

smokingman

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh they're still touting the we had incoming small arms fire. The guy in the US threw that out in a under the breath weasel fashion. They're trotting it out all over the place, hoping some mud sticks. One story had it that they had their weapons taken from them, yet in the same PR story they stated they were receiving small arms fire from the start(of and firebombs). Yet with all the pipes, "flags" and boxes of stones, where are the small arms? Oh thats' right there arent any. Were they throwing rounds at them? There may be BS on both sides, but my god the Israeli BS is so high one would get altitude sickness climbing it.

Who was it that said "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it...."

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

I've seen very little of that here from others so far. :P

I dont have blind faith, I only started posting after seeing those fairly damning vids. I call it like I see it and typically israel gets raked over the coals no matter what the evidence later shows, this time I decided to join the discussion.

Did you watch the videos with wounded people on the decks and blood on the ground before the troops descended, and what did you make of that 'clear evidence'?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

But does it make you distrust israel? Seems that most here do. So by the same reasoning, israel has every right to distrust anything involving the IHH.

*Israel claim that Gaza is getting enough aid.
*The UN and the EU is disputing this and claiming that they are only getting 25% of required aid.

One of these is lying, and I know who I believe. Who do you believe bambooze?

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

I dont and I already clarified that in another post. The weapons found was in a turkish raid on IHH some time ago as referenced in the danish doc posted earlier.

Yes I was just ensuring that people realised you were referring to that. The way it was quoted was ambiguous

Indeed, but such supplies go through hamas at the moment. Also "breaking the blockade" was actually stated as an aim by one of the leaders.

Breaking the illegal blockade (as stated by the Irish Government yesterday).

But does it make you distrust israel? Seems that most here do. So by the same reasoning, israel has every right to distrust anything involving the IHH.

I distrust a Government that claims that the assault on an Aid Convoy was a Policing operation when it is.

1. In International Waters
2. Carried out by Special Forces who normally are used for Assassination and Infiltration based combat operations.

I do not have any problems with ordinary Israelis just the way their government conducts business in their names.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

I've seen very little of that here from others so far. :P

I dont have blind faith, I only started posting after seeing those fairly damning vids. I call it like I see it and typically israel gets raked over the coals no matter what the evidence later shows, this time I decided to join the discussion.

You do have blind faith. You ignore all reports that come from anywhere outside of Israel and the US. Also what evidence? The evidence that Israel will produce?

IrishTonyO

doncarlos wrote: »

*Israel claim that Gaza is getting enough aid.
*The UN and the EU is disputing this and claiming that they are only getting 25% of required aid.

One of these is lying, and I know who I believe. Who do you believe bambooze?

The UN, the EU and the WHO all agree not enough aid is getting through only about 25% of what is required is getting through. Also the 4.5 billion pledged by the International community to rebuild Gaza has barely been touched because they cannot get the building materials required into the country.

bambooze

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Did you watch the videos with wounded people on the decks and blood on the ground before the troops descended, and what did you make of that 'clear evidence'?

Is there a clear timeline? What proof has been shown that troops were not on board before that vid?

ejmaztec

bambooze wrote: »

I've seen very little of that here from others so far. :P

I dont have blind faith, I only started posting after seeing those fairly damning vids. I call it like I see it and typically israel gets raked over the coals no matter what the evidence later shows, this time I decided to join the discussion.

You weren't here the last time?;)

irishconvert

bambooze wrote: »

Is there a clear timeline? What proof has been shown that troops were not on board before that vid?

You know about the Rachel Corrie on it's way to Gaza right now? What do you think the IDF should do to stop this? Should they board in international waters? Should they shoot the people on board if they defend themselves from being taken hostage in international waters by the IDF?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

Is there a clear timeline? What proof has been shown that troops were not on board before that vid?

Is there a clear timeline on the IDF video??

Byron85

Israel is a lunatic state according to Finkelstein and i'm relatively sure that he is far more qualified than anyone on here, including myself, to comment on the issue.

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

I've seen very little of that here from others so far. :P

I dont have blind faith, I only started posting after seeing those fairly damning vids. I call it like I see it and typically israel gets raked over the coals no matter what the evidence later shows, this time I decided to join the discussion.

bambooze wrote: »

Is there a clear timeline? What proof has been shown that troops were not on board before that vid?

See a contradiction between your 2 posts above?

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

You do have blind faith. You ignore all reports that come from anywhere outside of Israel and the US. Also what evidence? The evidence that Israel will produce?

I already posted a report from a danish group which cited french intelligence and turkish police. I also posted a blog by a journalist based in turkey. All the aforementioned are outside Israel and the US (although the guy who wrote the danish report is from the US).

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

No you go join an anti-israel jihadist group in pali areas (mainly gaza now but yes also the west bank or if really hardcore you could try lebanon).. going to israel would leave you on your own feeling a bit silly.

Again - there are no Israelis to fight in Gaza. Your 'theory' (and passportless passengers) hold no water.

doncarlos

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The UN, the EU and the WHO all agree not enough aid is getting through only about 25% of what is required is getting through. Also the 4.5 billion pledged by the International community to rebuild Gaza has barely been touched because they cannot get the building materials required into the country.

I'd be surprised if he replies to this post.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

I already posted a report from a danish group which cited french intelligence and turkish police. I also posted a blog by a journalist based in turkey. All the aforementioned are outside Israel and the US (although the guy who wrote the danish report is from the US).

Both France and Turkey support the humanitarian credentials of the flotilla. Let's not forget that fact.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

Is there a clear timeline? What proof has been shown that troops were not on board before that vid?

It's revealing how you don't ask the same or similar questions about the Israeli video.

What proof is there that the Israeli's didn't fire before they began descending onto the ship as the protesters claim they did? (now you're going to ask for video evidence, which we all know, the Israeli's confiscated and destroyed).

Here is the video in question:

http://www9.gazetevatan.com/israil-turk-bayrakli-yardim-gemisinde-olum-kustu/308396/1/Gundem

The reporter from Press TV about 30 seconds into the video clearly states that they were attacked without provocation. I have no reason to doubt his word, since he hasn't killed anyone.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

No you go join an anti-israel jihadist group in pali areas (mainly gaza now but yes also the west bank or if really hardcore you could try lebanon).. going to israel would leave you on your own feeling a bit silly.

Yes this is true. The Palestinians are in pretty small pockets of the country now. I wonder why. Calling these people "Palis" hardly helps your case either.