Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

Is there a clear timeline on the IDF video??

I agree there is still much to clarify all around but it appears that it shows the first soldiers landing on the deck of the ship and they were initially using paintball guns. Reuters had a crew on board the navy vessel and should know if that was not the case but have not disputed it so far.

bambooze

irishconvert wrote: »

You know about the Rachel Corrie on it's way to Gaza right now? What do you think the IDF should do to stop this? Should they board in international waters? Should they shoot the people on board if they defend themselves from being taken hostage in international waters by the IDF?

Well since they will by now know exactly what happened the other day then I would hope that they see sense and do not try to confront israeli forces because its very likely israel will again use force to stop them.

A more sensible option would be for them to simply land in egypt since egypt has already opened the gaza border so there really is NO GOOD REASON that I know of now not to use that route unless they only want to create another publicity stunt with potentially lethal consequences.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

I agree there is still much to clarify all around but it appears that it shows the first soldiers landing on the deck of the ship and they were initially using paintball guns. Reuters had a crew on board the navy vessel and should know if that was not the case but have not disputed it so far.

Well, Israeli member of Parliament, Haneen Zoubi who was on the attacked ship DOES dispute this...

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100602/FOREIGN/706019813/1002/FOREIGN

Haneen Zoubi said Israeli naval vessels had surrounded the flotilla’s flagship, the Mavi Marmara, and fired on it a few minutes before commandos abseiled from a helicopter directly above them.

Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them. She said she was not aware of any provocation or resistance by the passengers, who were all unarmed.

She added that within minutes of the raid beginning, three bodies had been brought to the main room on the upper deck in which she and most other passengers were confined. Two had gunshot wounds to the head, in what she suggested had been executions.

I suppose she is a terrorist also, and probably a murderer.

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

Well since they will by now know exactly what happened the other day then I would hope that they see sense and do not try to confront israeli forces because its very likely israel will again use force to stop them.

A more sensible option would be for them to simply land in egypt since egypt has already opened the gaza border so there really is NO GOOD REASON that I know of now not to use that route unless they only want to create another publicity stunt with potentially lethal consequences.

Maybe the fact that it is a narrow route designed for pedestrians and not suitable for large scale movements of aid, as already stated today by the UN

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

Well since they will by now know exactly what happened the other day then I would hope that they see sense and do not try to confront israeli forces because its very likely israel will again use force to stop them.

A more sensible option would be for them to simply land in egypt since egypt has already opened the gaza border so there really is NO GOOD REASON that I know of now not to use that route unless they only want to create another publicity stunt with potentially lethal consequences.

The GOOD reason is that the ILLEGAL Israeli Blockade of Gaza should not be tolerated. Neither should Israel's illegal actions in trying to enforce it.

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes this is true. The Palestinians are in pretty small pockets of the country now. I wonder why.

Gaza and the west bank is not actually that small - compare to the size of israel.

Calling these people "Palis" hardly helps your case either.

I can't be arsed writing "palestinians" every time. Do you say "british" every time or just "brits"?

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

A more sensible option would be for them to simply land in egypt since egypt has already opened the gaza border so there really is NO GOOD REASON that I know of now not to use that route unless they only want to create another publicity stunt with potentially lethal consequences.

That checkpoint/border is a 2 lane road. It is designed only for pedestrians and small vehicles. Proper large amounts of aid on an industrial scale, which is what the Palestinians need, cannot be brought through Rafah crossing. Of course though, this matters not to some people/governments.

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

I suppose she is a terrorist also, and probably a murderer.

No but she is a blatant liar as evidenced by the vids.

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

No but she is a blatant liar as evidenced by the vids.

Why hasn't she been expelled from the Israeli parliament if she is as blatant a liar as you claim?

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

No but she is a blatant liar as evidenced by the vids.

The Israeli, edited, non-timestamped vids?

IrishTonyO

so bambooze which do you believe

Israel - Enough Aid is getting through to Gaza
or
The UN, The EU, The WHO - Only a small percentage of the aid required is getting through (between 25%-33%)

doncarlos

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Maybe the fact that it is a narrow route designed for pedestrians and not suitable for large scale movements of aid, as already stated today by the UN

The UN are liars aren't they bambooze?

sceptre

bambooze wrote: »

I can't be arsed writing "palestinians" every time. Do you say "british" every time or just "brits"?

I say British every time. It's polite and doesn't come with that negative aura that abbreviating someone's nationality is often rightly associated with. Just a thought.

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

No but she is a blatant liar as evidenced by the vids.

As evidenced by IDF released video without timelines that you trust 100% and yet you dismiss other video saying there are no timelines etc..

bambooze

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Maybe the fact that it is a narrow route designed for pedestrians and not suitable for large scale movements of aid, as already stated today by the UN

Well I dont know what the UN said but last time I went through rafah crossing on a bus it seemed just fine to me but lets say that for some peculiar reason there's no way to drive across now, is there any shortage of people to carry the aid over with trolleys or whatever? Its not rocket science. Is a bit of manual graft not worth it to prevent a potential conflict and loss of life? Seems like a piss poor excuse to me.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

No but she is a blatant liar as evidenced by the vids.

The evidence of the videos that show nothing before the commandos' descent? How does that work then?

Selkies

doncarlos wrote: »

The Israeli, edited, non-timestamped vids?

How about the Al-Jazeera video where the captain is heard on loud speaker telling the people on board to stop resisting.

Why if there was no resistance was there injuries among the commandos?

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

is there any shortage of people to carry the aid over with trolleys or whatever? Its not rocket science. Is a bit of manual graft not worth it to prevent a potential conflict and loss of life? Seems like a piss poor excuse to me.

10000 tons of relief on trollys? That's a bit of manual graft alright.

I somehow doubt you've been through the Rafah crossing btw. But nice try.

Memnoch

Just was watching BBC news, they we're interviewing one of the released protesters (I inferred as I didn't catch his name).

He said 3 of the protesters were shot dead by the Israeli's from the helicopters BEFORE they descended.

He said they had no weapons but only the chairs and tables one which they were sitting. And that WHEN they saw the Israelis attack without provocation and kill three innocent people they picked up whatever they could in order to try and defend themselves as the commandos began to absail down. (Undoubtedly because they believed the IDF were going to kill them.)

Memnoch

Selkies wrote: »

How about the Al-Jazeera video where the captain is heard on loud speaker telling the people on board to stop resisting.

Why if there was no resistance was there injuries among the commandos?

I'm sure that after the Israelis shot people dead on the ship before sending their commandos down, the people under attack and in fear for their lives tried to defend themselves with whatever they had to hand.

BluePlanet

The fact that the persons on the ships are all in bright orange life preservers, would indicate they are in life-preservation mode, and not in the throes of some organised "surpise attack".

Byron85

Mohamed Vall, Al Jazeera reporter The Israeli assault took those of us on the ship by complete surprise.
During that hour an half in the early morning everybody on board the ship thought that no-one would survive the Israeli attack because we saw about 30 war vessels surrounding this ship and helicopters attacking with very luminous bombs, the sound of them makes you think you are dead
That was a fear of war, complete war, on a ship that was full of men, women and even children.
The first soldiers on the ship were not killed, they were not shot at, they were captured by the defenders of the ship.
Moments later another bigger helicopter landed more troops and this time they fired immediately at people and killed as many as they could so that they could reach the cabin and take control of the ship.
I saw blood spilt on the ship and everyone knew that there was no weapons. we all knew the Israelis would intercept us and try to stop us, but we didn't think that they would open fire at the first moment.
I have been shown the picture of a Yemeni man, and this is ridiculous, who was on the ship and most people know that every Yemeni in the world has a Yemeni style knife, that is a cultural thing and does not have anything to do with violence.
I understand now that in Israel they are trying to make a big deal about that, saying that the boat was full of violent people and just because of that one man.

Just some updates as statements are made public.

Zulu

bambooze wrote: »

... is there any shortage of people to carry the aid over with trolleys or whatever?

Huh, way to undermine your tenious position. Good work.

paulaa

wow !!! The standard of hasbara has really deteriorated in the last few years.

I even heard an Israeli spokesman (not the slimy Ragev) try to justify the murders this morning by saying that Israel was the first field hospital to be set up in Haiti !!!

doncarlos

Selkies wrote: »

How about the Al-Jazeera video where the captain is heard on loud speaker telling the people on board to stop resisting.

Why if there was no resistance was there injuries among the commandos?

I have no doubts that they were resisting. You can clearly see this on the IDF video. If I thought my life was in danger I would fight to survive too. Wouldn't you?

Selkies

Memnoch wrote: »

I'm sure that after the Israelis shot people dead on the ship before sending their commandos down, the people under attack and in fear for their lives tried to defend themselves with whatever they had to hand.

Yes but regardless of whether it happened before or after, the accuracy of Haneen Zoubi's account of what happened is called into question.
She was either unaware of or unwilling to acknowledge the resistance that did take place.

bambooze

IrishTonyO wrote: »

As evidenced by IDF released video without timelines that you trust 100% and yet you dismiss other video saying there are no timelines etc..

She said "There was not a single passenger who raised a club."

Really? There is no disputing what this vid shows, whatever the timeline.. so either she saw nothing and is just making **** up or she is an outright liar. She blew any credibility she may have had..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

BluePlanet

But the people on the boat Have a Right to Resist.
Israel has no authority to board taht ship in International waters in the first place

Selkies

doncarlos wrote: »

I have no doubts that they were resisting. You can clearly see this on the IDF video. If I thought my life was in danger I would fight to survive too. Wouldn't you?

If a bunch of commandos landed on my ship I would raise my hands, if they started shooting I would run to cover.

Even if they were just wielding paint ball guns.

I think that's a fairly normal reaction when faced with a military force.

It's the fight or flight response, I can't possibly win against these people, what is the best way to survive this encounter because I really want to stay alive.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

I somehow doubt you've been through the Rafah crossing btw. But nice try.

lol, ok if you say so oh omnipotent one.