Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

Gaza and the west bank is not actually that small - compare to the size of israel.

Israel itself is pretty small, the Palestinian territories are tiny by comparison. And getting smaller by the year with land theft a plenty. Do we need to post the map with timeline again?

I find it laughable that you suggest hauling 1000's of tonnes of aid across a road rather than from a port. To paraphrase a Jewish lad from times past, camel through the eye of a needle time.

Zulu

How many people were already murdered when this video was taken?

I'm interested to know, because if I'd just watched some of my unarmed collegues being executed, and the same commandos who murdered them started boarding the ship, I'd be cacking it; I'd be pretty convinced they were comming to finish the job.

paulaa

Yesterday there were numerous TV reports of one of the humanitarian activists on the ship holding a white flag which was promptly ignored by the soldiers.
It reminds me of the footage of the elderly woman in Gaza during Cast Lead holding a white flag, trying to get her little granddaughters to safety who was gunned down in cold blood by the "glorious" IDF

Byron85

Another quick update.

Huseyin Tokalak, the captain of one of the seized ships who was freed on Tuesday, told a news conference in Istanbul that an Israeli navy ship threatened to sink his vessel before troops boarded and trained their guns on him and his crew.
"They pointed two guns to the head of each of us," Tokalak said.
Others said that the soldiers had opened fire even after passengers had raised the white flag.

Zulu

Selkies wrote: »

It's the fight or flight response, I can't possibly win against these people, what is the best way to survive this encounter because I really want to stay alive.

Fight probably, there isn't anywhere to run to on a boat.

Selkies

There is a picture of the rafah crossing on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing

bambooze

sceptre wrote: »

I say British every time. It's polite and doesn't come with that negative aura that abbreviating someone's nationality is often rightly associated with. Just a thought.

Its just an abbreviation and the posts are coming in way too fast for me to keep up now without cutting some corners!

Henceforth I shall refer to palestinians as ~

doncarlos

Selkies wrote: »

If a bunch of commandos landed on my ship I would raise my hands, if they started shooting I would run to cover.

Run to cover where? They were on a boat. If someone comes on a boat to kill you there isn't very far that you can run

Archie D Bunker

Memnoch wrote: »

It's revealing how you don't ask the same or similar questions about the Israeli video.

What proof is there that the Israeli's didn't fire before they began descending onto the ship as the protesters claim they did? (now you're going to ask for video evidence, which we all know, the Israeli's confiscated and destroyed).

Logic & common sense are sometimes enough - if the Israelis started shooting before they began descending onto the ship, no flotilla member would have been around (kind of scary to be fired at, you tend to run away), and I seriously doubt that any of the flotilla members could have gotten close enough to the Israeli soldiers to hurt them as they did with knives and steel pipes, before being shot.

Selkies

Zulu wrote: »

Fight probably, there isn't anywhere to run to on a boat.

Or simply surrender, you know because they have guns and you have slingshots, iron bars and various other non lethal weapons. Does that not make sense?

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

She said "There was not a single passenger who raised a club."

Selective quoting is always handy for misrepresenting.

There was not a single passenger who raised a club. We put on our life vests. From where I was standing, I didn’t see any clubs or anything of the sort.

doncarlos

Selkies wrote: »

Or simply surrender, you know because they have guns and you have slingshots, iron bars and various other non lethal weapons. Does that not make sense?

What good is surrendering if you think you are going to be shot?
Also there are reports that a white flag was raised and the IDF continued to shoot.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

lol, ok if you say so oh omnipotent one.

So, fire away - year, group and destination?

bambooze

Wibbs wrote: »

Israel itself is pretty small, the Palestinian territories are tiny by comparison. And getting smaller by the year with land theft a plenty. Do we need to post the map with timeline again?

I find it laughable that you suggest hauling 1000's of tonnes of aid across a road rather than from a port. To paraphrase a Jewish lad from times past, camel through the eye of a needle time.

Apparently big enough for fire engines and more..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rafah_Crossing.jpg

How would you suggest supplies get from any port to wherever the people need it anyway? At some point it is loaded onto trucks and vans and distributed.

Zulu

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Logic & common sense are sometimes enough - if the Israelis started shooting before they began descending onto the ship, no flotilla member would have been around ...

What? They'd all have run to where exactly? Jumped ship??

Selkies wrote: »

Or simply surrender, you know because they have guns and you have slingshots, iron bars and various other non lethal weapons. Does that not make sense?

Considering they've just shot dead unarmed civilians, I wouldn't have thought they were interested in taking prisoners.

You'd surrender to someone who's just shot dead your unarmed collegue? Seriously??

Selkies

alastair wrote: »

Selective quoting is always handy for misrepresenting.

There was not a single passenger who raised a club. We put on our life vests. From where I was standing, I didn’t see any clubs or anything of the sort.

So why are we quoting her anymore, she was obviously standing somewhere away from the action.

IrishTonyO

Selkies wrote: »

If a bunch of commandos landed on my ship I would raise my hands, if they started shooting I would run to cover.

Even if they were just wielding paint ball guns.

I think that's a fairly normal reaction when faced with a military force.

It's the fight or flight response, I can't possibly win against these people, what is the best way to survive this encounter because I really want to stay alive.

like you say the fight or flight response, indicating some will fight, especially when they know they are in the right.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

So, fire away - year, group and destination?

Group? Dunno what you mean by that. Anything else is my business anyway.

Selkies

doncarlos wrote: »

What good is surrendering if you think you are going to be shot?
Also there are reports that a white flag was raised and the IDF continued to shoot.

I imagine there was still some fighting going on while the more sensible raised a white flag.

irishconvert

bambooze wrote: »

Well since they will by now know exactly what happened the other day then I would hope that they see sense and do not try to confront israeli forces because its very likely israel will again use force to stop them.

A more sensible option would be for them to simply land in egypt since egypt has already opened the gaza border so there really is NO GOOD REASON that I know of now not to use that route unless they only want to create another publicity stunt with potentially lethal consequences.

I asked you what YOU THINK the IDF should do. Namely:
- What do you think the IDF should do to stop this?
- Should they board in international waters?
- Should they shoot the people on board if they defend themselves from being taken hostage in international waters by the IDF?

bambooze wrote: »

A more sensible option would be for them to simply land in egypt since egypt has already opened the gaza border so there really is NO GOOD REASON that I know of now not to use that route unless they only want to create another publicity stunt with potentially lethal consequences.

No it would not because Egypt will not allow all the aid in (e.g. building materials)

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Apparently big enough for fire engines and more..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rafah_Crossing.jpg

'Apparently'? You can't recall from your own experience of the place? :rolleyes:

Selkies

Zulu wrote: »

You'd surrender to someone who's just shot dead your unarmed collegue? Seriously??

Unfortunately we don't know if they were unarmed for 100% sure. In fact some of the evidence shakey though it may be points towards the Israeli commandos being attacked as they board.

If that is the case I would run away from where the fighting is happening.
In fact I wouldn't be on deck in the first place when the Israelis turn up.

doncarlos

alastair wrote: »

'Apparently'? You can't recall from your own experience of the place? :rolleyes:

Brilliant!! :D

Zulu

Selkies wrote: »

I imagine...

...well, so long as we're clear that thats just pure speculation.

Meanwhile the facts are, unarmed aid workers were murdered in international waters by Israeli commandos.

alastair

Selkies wrote: »

So why are we quoting her anymore, she was obviously standing somewhere away from the action.

I'm quoting her because she's been accused of lying (by people who weren't there natch).

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Group? Dunno what you mean by that. Anything else is my business anyway.

The business of Walter Mitty it would seem.

Archie D Bunker

Zulu wrote: »

What? They'd all have run to where exactly? Jumped ship??

Considering they've just shot dead unarmed civilians, I wouldn't have thought they were interested in taking prisoners.

You'd surrender to someone who's just shot dead your unarmed collegue? Seriously??

Simple - run below decks. Considering several other ships were boarded previously with no casualties, I can't really understand what made the people on this specific ship think that they were going to be shot.

Also, apparently all the other people on the ship did surrender after their armed colleagues were shot (sorry, but a knife is also a weapon), and what a surprise - the Israelis didn't murder any of them...

IrishTonyO

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Simple - run below decks. Considering several other ships were boarded previously with no casualties, I can't really understand what made the people on this specific ship think that they were going to be shot.

Also, apparently all the other people on the ship did surrender after their armed colleagues were shot (sorry, but a knife is also a weapon), and what a surprise - the Israelis didn't murder any of them...

Israel is the one that says the other ships were boarded first however others say it was the lead vessel boarded first which would make more sense IMO

Scofflaw

irishconvert wrote: »

bambooze, do you have any links to the IDF or Israeli Government? What country are you posting from? Are you Israeli?

If you believe that another user is trolling - and being a shill counts as trolling i my book - you report it. Ban for the next person to do it.

bambooze, stick to the topic, and don't try to drag discussion around to where you want it.

moderately,
Scofflaw

BluePlanet

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Also, apparently all the other people on the ship did surrender after their armed colleagues were shot (sorry, but a knife is also a weapon), and what a surprise - the Israelis didn't murder any of them...

Wasn't the MV Mavi Marmara the first ship to be boarded?
So didn't the IDF use maximum force against the lead ship to send a message to the others?