Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Archie D Bunker

Zulu wrote: »

...well, so long as we're clear that thats just pure speculation.

Meanwhile the facts are, unarmed aid workers were murdered in international waters by Israeli commandos.

I've never heard of any aid workers attacking soldiers with knives and steel pipes before. Interesting concept.

doncarlos

Selkies wrote: »

Unfortunately we don't know if they were unarmed for 100% sure.

Why don't the IDF and Israel release the FULL unedited video then and we would all know for 100% sure.
If they are the innocent party in all this as they claim they should have no issues releasing it. Why has this not been done yet?

Do you not find this highly suspicious?

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

'Apparently'? You can't recall from your own experience of the place? :rolleyes:

Is that the best you can do? You wont believe what I say so I post a photo (from a link someone else just posted) showing how big it is.. my contention is its big enough to get the supplies through, your belief in my having been there is irrelevant.

BlaasForRafa

Memnoch wrote: »

Just was watching BBC news, they we're interviewing one of the released protesters (I inferred as I didn't catch his name).

He said 3 of the protesters were shot dead by the Israeli's from the helicopters BEFORE they descended.

That seems highly unlikely, it sounded like someone either confused by shock or conflating events. Why would troops descend with paintball guns if they had already shot 3 activists dead already? Would they not go in with Uzi's or Tavors if things had already escalated to that point?

He said they had no weapons but only the chairs and tables one which they were sitting. And that WHEN they saw the Israelis attack without provocation and kill three innocent people they picked up whatever they could in order to try and defend themselves as the commandos began to absail down. (Undoubtedly because they believed the IDF were going to kill them.)

That point has already been proven wrong by turkish footage on Newsnight last night of activists waiting in a stairwell just below the top deck before the drop with gasmasks already on, clubs in hand and wearing bulky lifejackets as a form of makeshift body armour.

Zulu

Selkies wrote: »

Unfortunately we don't know if they were unarmed for 100% sure.

There is no proof to the contrary.
If they were armed, wouldn't at least one of the commandos have been shot?

In fact some of the evidence shakey though it may be points towards the Israeli commandos being attacked as they board.

After they began shooting & killing unarmed aid workers.

If that is the case I would run away from where the fighting is happening.
In fact I wouldn't be on deck in the first place when the Israelis turn up.

Hummm, just be careful your actions aren't incorrectly perceived as "setting up an ambush". Running is never a good idea. Very slow deliberate movements when someone is pointing a gun at you.

Ordinarily (ie: if unarmed people weren't being slaughtered around me) I'd go on deck in full visibility of those who are armed and looking to board. I've be in a life jacket, with my hands in the air.

BlaasForRafa

doncarlos wrote: »

Run to cover where? They were on a boat. If someone comes on a boat to kill you there isn't very far that you can run

Have you ever been on a passenger ferry? They are not little sailboats, people could easily have gone onto one of the lower decks or down to the cabin area.

irishconvert

Some more accounts of what happened:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/06/20106193546785656.html

BluePlanet

What makes you believe they were paintball guns?
Let's see what the eye witnesses have to say.
I also didn't see any images of paintball splatter.

IrishTonyO

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Memnoch wrote: »

That seems highly unlikely, it sounded like someone either confused by shock or conflating events. Why would troops descend with paintball guns if they had already shot 3 activists dead already? Would they not go in with Uzi's or Tavors if things had already escalated to that point?




That point has already been proven wrong by turkish footage on Newsnight last night of activists waiting in a stairwell just below the top deck before the drop with gasmasks already on, clubs in hand and wearing bulky lifejackets as a form of makeshift body armour.

If you notice he says 3 were killed before the IDF landed, and then states people defended themselves with what they could after seeing 3 people shot.

gandalf

BluePlanet wrote: »

Wasn't the MV Mavi Marmara the first ship to be boarded?
So didn't the IDF use maximum force against the lead ship to send a message to the others?

From what I have read it was the first ship boarded. Probably because it was the largest.

I believe at least one of the smaller ships attempted to make a run for it to broadcast to the outside world but its transmissions were jammed and it gave up after 15 minutes as it was then surrounded.

Given the other ships were a lot smaller they were easier to overwhelm and to pacify.

Of course it doesn't take away from the fact that it was an illegal operation in International Waters.

Archie D Bunker

Isreal claims some of the people on the ship are linked to global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

philologos

Even if the Israeli Government permitted the flotilla to dock in Gaza, they would still need to search the ships at sea to ensure that there weren't materials available for creating rockets and other materials.

I'm personally in disagreement with the blockade, but I'm finding there is a lot of misinformation on both sides as usual about the circumstances in which this actually happened.

Zulu

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I've never heard of any aid workers attacking soldiers with knives and steel pipes before. Interesting concept.

Well, check the dictionary: aid worker

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Have you ever been on a passenger ferry? They are not little sailboats, people could easily have gone onto one of the lower decks or down to the cabin area.

But they shouldn't have to run for their lives, thats the entire bleedin' point.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

Is that the best you can do? You wont believe what I say so I post a photo (from a link someone else just posted) showing how big it is.. my contention is its big enough to get the supplies through, your belief in my having been there is irrelevant.

You weren't there. It's just funny that you'd feel the need to pretend you were to support a red herring argument. The Rachel Corrie's goal is to stop the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds - it would make no sense that they sail straight to Egypt. Rafah isn't a substitute for the other crossings (and Gaza port) long-term.

Byron85

They wouldn't let us use the bathroom, wouldn't give us food or water and they took video of us despite international conventions banning this.

It seems the Geneva Convention doesn't apply either. What a surprise.

OhNoYouDidn't

Jakkass wrote: »

Even if the Israeli Government permitted the flotilla to dock in Gaza, they would still need to search the ships at sea to ensure that there weren't materials available for creating rockets and other materials.

Why? Its aid from Turkey to Palestine verified by Turkish customs and the Red Cross as being aid only, its none of their business. The blockade is illegal.

droidus

Pictures of the WMD being shipped to Hamas by the evil terror 'activists' have been released:





http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/01/evidence-belies-israeli-claim

Zulu

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

and wearing bulky lifejackets as a form of makeshift body armour.

Do you honestly believe ANYONE buys this kind of utter bullshit?

Byron85

Zulu wrote: »

Do you honestly believe ANYONE buys this kind of utter bullshit?

Basic physics go out the window too when "terrorists" are attacking Israel.

philologos

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why? Its aid from Turkey to Palestine verified by Turkish customs and the Red Cross as being aid only, its none of their business. The blockade is illegal.

The Israelis need to know what is coming in and coming out of there for security reasons, and I think that's a reasonable request of the IDF to seek.

I think that they should have been allowed to sail for Gaza, but that the IDF should be allowed to search any ship entering those waters, as I said, precisely because Israel has an "at war" status with Hamas.

Foxtrol

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I've never heard of any aid workers attacking soldiers with knives and steel pipes before. Interesting concept.

It was never about aid. It was about using aid as something to hide behind as they ran the (probably illegal) blockade of Israel. They wanted a reaction and some on board wanted a fight.

I in no way condone what Israel did but would everyone please stop making the flotilla out to be full of Nobel peace prize winners.

prinz

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Have you ever been on a passenger ferry? They are not little sailboats, people could easily have gone onto one of the lower decks or down to the cabin area.

As many people did.

BluePlanet wrote: »

What makes you believe they were paintball guns? Let's see what the eye witnesses have to say.
I also didn't see any images of paintball splatter.

The paintball guns can clearly be seen from the video footage. Of the eyewitness accounts that have come out so far only non-lethal force has been desribed, electric stun guns, physical restraint etc.

gandalf

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Basic physics go out the window too when "terrorists" are attacking Israel.

Apparently along with Basic Logic and Basic Human decency.

prinz

Zulu wrote: »

Do you honestly believe ANYONE buys this kind of utter bullshit?

Having watched the videos, yes I do. Pretty clear they were waiting for a fight tbh.

karma_

Jakkass wrote: »

The Israelis need to know what is coming in and coming out of there for security reasons, and I think that's a reasonable request of the IDF to seek.

I think that they should have been allowed to sail for Gaza, but that the IDF should be allowed to search any ship entering those waters, as I said, precisely because Israel has an "at war" status with Hamas.

Don't Israel control the ports in Gaza, so they could have checked the cargo as it was being unloaded anyway. Didn't the cargo get checked as it was loaded by it's ally and assurances given by Turkey there were no arms on board?

sceptre

alastair wrote: »

You weren't there. It's just funny that you'd feel the need to pretend you were to support a red herring argument.

All right, point made and initially made reasonably, move on. It's flogging a horse that's demonstrably dead at this point, point certainly made.

(that specifically also includes any replies)

/mod

Either way, the crossing is big enough for vans but not for the trucks that would be needed to transport large amounts of aid (while I don't want to get into the specs of large trucks, archways are often designed to take vans and fire trucks as they have a lower height than typical trucks, they're designed that way). And whoever said that building materials aren't permitted through the crossing is also entirely correct. As for the idea of transporting via shopping trolley, well, I'll let that one stand on its own lack of merits. The Rafah Crossing as an alternative is a red herring, let's try to avoid silly red herrings.

doncarlos

prinz wrote: »

Having watched the videos, yes I do. Pretty clear they were waiting for a fight tbh.

Oh great you've seen the unedited time-stamped video from the IDF. Can you share this with the rest of us please?

JimiTime

A nation the size of the canary islands, surrounded by nations who wish to erradicate them. Nations who have combined and attacked them in the past, but were defeated. Nations who will butcher people for converting from Islam to another religion, and will kill you for being homosexual. Are basically big dictatorships. They conduct random rocket attacks willy nilly. No targets, just as long as they fall in Israel.

However, there is a massive push in the international community to side with the Palestinians, who are governed by a group who say that Gihad is the only solution to the Israel problem. This people, who want to lob rockets onto Israeli civilians, and who have 'underground' support from certain muslim nations and the likes of hezbollah etc. Israel, quite rightly IMO, blockade marine activity in Gaza for quite obvious reasons. A ship flying a crescent moon flag, disobeys all warnings to avert their course, and there is a military response. Seriously, I think we really need to ask what the hell we are defending. Those people stopped being civillians when they purposely defied the millitary and continued with their intention to port in Gaza. IF Israel opened fire from helicoptors, then it was very, very stupid IMO, but those who continued on course for Gaza made that ship and its passengers soldiers in a war. I think this whole incident is a propaganda machine, in which all who were anti-Israel anyway are being able to shout 'murderers' to a big worldwide audience.
If only things were so simple. Imagine living in Athlone, knowing that every area surrounding you wanted to erradicate you and have tried to in the past. The surrounding areas still don't recognise your nationhood, and your neighbours conduct random rocket attacks on your civillians. If they stopped attacking, you'd love to simply live in peace, but their position is that they want you erradicated.

I agree with what someone said on this conflict, 'If the arabs/islamist nations, dropped their guns and wanted peace and recognised Israels right to exist, there would be no war. If Israel dropped their guns, there would be no Israel.'

Israel are by no means an innocent party, but I have empathy for their position. It seems to be a case of damned if they do, dead if they don't IMO.

One things for sure, I don't take this black and white, 'Murdering b*&^&rds' approach. Though it makes for great propaganda, its far too simplistic IMO.

Zulu

prinz wrote: »

Of the eyewitness accounts that have come out so far only non-lethal force has been desribed, electric stun guns, physical restraint etc.

The corpses would tend to dispute that particular nugget of BS if they could talk.