Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

karma_

prinz wrote: »

Having watched the videos, yes I do. Pretty clear they were waiting for a fight tbh.

Now, are you seriously suggesting the only reason they had lifejackets on was as a form as protection and not because they were on a ship?

That is a laughable position to take in honesty.

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

You weren't there. It's just funny that you'd feel the need to pretend you were to support a red herring argument. The Rachel Corrie's goal is to stop the Israeli blockade on humanitarian grounds - it would make no sense that they sail straight to Egypt. Rafah isn't a substitute for the other crossings (and Gaza port) long-term.

Sure, if it makes you feel better I'm really just a 12yo kid typing from my parents basement in timbuk f'in tu. :rolleyes:

Your personal attacks on me don't change the facts that egypt opened the gaza border and there should be plenty of room to get supplies through.

And who is talking about long term? The issue is the one ship currently on the way.

IrishTonyO

prinz wrote: »

Having watched the videos, yes I do. Pretty clear they were waiting for a fight tbh.

You think a life jacket makes a good defence against bullets, better tell all the armies and the police in the world to stop wasting money buying body armour and stab/bullet proof vest, sure won't life jackets do instead, far cheaper....

Byron85

Jakkass wrote: »

, as I said, precisely because Israel has an "at war" status with Hamas.

Well then the Israelis need to respect the Geneva Conventions and numerous U.N resolutions. However, since it does none of the above, it can't be at war with Hamas and therefore has no right to occupy Gaza or lay any claim to the territory surrounding it including its waters.

It cannot have its cake and eat it too yet it seems rather intent on doing so.

OhNoYouDidn't

Jakkass wrote: »

The Israelis need to know what is coming in and coming out of there for security reasons, and I think that's a reasonable request of the IDF to seek.

I think that they should have been allowed to sail for Gaza, but that the IDF should be allowed to search any ship entering those waters, as I said, precisely because Israel has an "at war" status with Hamas.

So their Turkish allies and the Red Cross are involved in a weapons smuggling operation?

Lets accept for a second that the IDF are 'entitled' to search the cargo, why did they chose to do this at night, in international waters, using a surprise raid and killing up to 19 humnaitarian workers.

This was about brute force to put out a message, not stopping non existant weapons.

reprazant

deadtiger wrote: »

From what I have read it was the first ship boarded. Probably because it was the largest.

I believe at least one of the smaller ships attempted to make a run for it to broadcast to the outside world but its transmissions were jammed and it gave up after 15 minutes as it was then surrounded.

Given the other ships were a lot smaller they were easier to overwhelm and to pacify.

Of course it doesn't take away from the fact that it was an illegal operation in International Waters.

I was under the impression from reports that it was boarded first because it was the only ship that didn't stop when demanded.

It possible thought that due its size, the Israelis would be unable to stop it.

prinz

karma_ wrote: »

Don't Israel control the ports in Gaza, so they could have checked the cargo as it was being unloaded anyway. Didn't the cargo get checked as it was loaded by it's ally and assurances given by Turkey there were no arms on board?

Irrelevant. Just because I may have been searched in Dublin Airport doesn't stop police/customs officials etc searching me if I fly somewhere else.

doncarlos wrote: »

Oh great you've seen the unedited time-stamped video from the IDF. Can you share this with the rest of us please?

No, it's called the video that was broadcast from on board the ship, nothing to do with the IDF at all.

Foxtrol

doncarlos wrote: »

Oh great you've seen the unedited time-stamped video from the IDF. Can you share this with the rest of us please?

If you're not believing the video I assume you take "eye-witness" reports with the same sort of skepticism?

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But they shouldn't have to run for their lives, thats the entire bleedin' point.

They wouldn't have had to run for their lives at all if they hadn't attacked the soldiers when they were descending and afterwards. There were over 600 people on board that ferry, no one is accusing all of them of attacking the soldiers but it only takes 30 or 40 people pumped up with adrenaline to hit a small commando team when it is at its most vulnerable.

I want more information on the events that happened but from the data that has come out so far logic must be used to sift through it, not emotion and bias. Rushing to pre-judge events like this is crazy.

Logic would indicate that there was no conspiracy to kill activists or to "send a message", it would indicate that commando's went into a situation that they weren't suited for, in insufficient numbers and were set upon. In fear for their lives they then got permission to open fire.

If the facts end up contradicing me, thats fine but that would seem like a logical course of events based on the evidence so far.

bambooze

karma_ wrote: »

Don't Israel control the ports in Gaza, so they could have checked the cargo as it was being unloaded anyway.

No, gaza port is in gaza which is ruled by hamas, there are no israelis IN gaza (besides gilad shalit) hence the desire to stop things reaching the port.

Roibead

For all you people here that are dupes for terrorists have a good look and "peaceful protesters,Peace activists" dont make me laugh have a good look at the weapons and proof..

The Turkish ship had Turkish terrorists that even the Turkish government were watching and the same day "rent a mob, Palywood in Istanbul"

If you even have a bit of intelligence you can clearly see you supporting terrorists :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o&feature=player_embedded

AGAIN I SAY PEACEFUL THE IRONY !!:rolleyes:

prinz

Zulu wrote: »

The corpses would tend to dispute that particular nugget of BS if they could talk.

So the accounts from people on board are all BS so far are they?

karma_ wrote: »

Now, are you seriously suggesting the only reason they had lifejackets on was as a form as protection and not because they were on a ship? That is a laughable position to take in honesty.

I have often been on ferries. I have never once had to put on a life jacket.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

You think a life jacket makes a good defence against bullets, better tell all the armies and the police in the world to stop wasting money buying body armour and stab/bullet proof vest, sure won't life jackets do instead, far cheaper....

Lads, ye really need to take a step back from the anti-Israeli juice and actually try to look at the evidence impartially. Until you do this thread is pointless. Watch the video that has been showing on almost all the TV stations that was filmed on board, not by the IDF, just prior to soldiers reaching the deck.

IrishTonyO

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Logic would indicate that there was no conspiracy to kill activists or to "send a message", it would indicate that commando's went into a situation that they weren't suited for, in insufficient numbers and were set upon. In fear for their lives they then got permission to open fire.

If the facts end up contradicing me, thats fine but that would seem like a logical course of events based on the evidence so far.

The only problem with that is logic does not normally apply to Israel's actions as has been seen in the past

doncarlos

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you're not believing the video I assume you take "eye-witness" reports with the same sort of skepticism?

Of course I do. Eye witness reports are rarely accurate anyway and as soon as they talk to another eye witness their version can be tainted.

irishconvert

bambooze wrote: »

Your personal attacks on me don't change the facts that egypt opened the gaza border and there should be plenty of room to get supplies through.

They will not let any building materials through. How can the palestinians rebuild their houses without it? People are living in tents. Do you agree with this?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6502H820100601

Reuters wrote:

Aid convoys, to which Egypt has in the past given limited access, would be able to use the crossing, subject to following Cairo's limitation that only food and medical supplies go in.

"Hard materials" -- apparently including concrete and steel which Gazans want to repair damage from an Israeli offensive last year -- would have to go via Israel, the Egyptian source said.

Byron85

Roibead wrote: »

For all you people here that are dupes for terrorists have a good look and "peaceful protesters,Peace activists" dont make me laugh have a good look at the weapons and proof..

The Turkish ship had Turkish terrorists that even the Turkish government were watching and the same day "rent a mob, Palywood in Istanbul"

If you even have a bit of intelligence you can clearly see you supporting terrorists :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o&feature=player_embedded

AGAIN I SAY PEACEFUL THE IRONY !!:rolleyes:

Keffiyeh scarves are in there too. I never realised they were so lethal. I better throw mine away.

Also the name of the channel that those videos are on is IDF Spokesperson's Unit. Very objective I must say.

Foxtrol

Zulu wrote: »

The corpses would tend to dispute that particular nugget of BS if they could talk.

And I'm pretty sure the injured commando's show the boat was not filled with "peacemakers" either.

doncarlos

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

They wouldn't have had to run for their lives at all if they hadn't attacked the soldiers when they were descending and afterwards. There were over 600 people on board that ferry, no one is accusing all of them of attacking the soldiers but it only takes 30 or 40 people pumped up with adrenaline to hit a small commando team when it is at its most vulnerable.

Would they have attacked the soldiers if they were not attacked first? Also it has been claimed by the soldier that was thrown overboard that 75% of the ship attacked them and they ALL were carrying knives. This is reported as fact in the the Israeli media.

alastair

JimiTime wrote: »

A nation the size of the canary islands, surrounded by nations who wish to erradicate them. Nations who have combined and attacked them in the past, but were defeated. Nations who will butcher people for converting from Islam to another religion, and will kill you for being homosexual. Are basically big dictatorships. They conduct random rocket attacks willy nilly. No targets, just as long as they fall in Israel.

Israel has in turn invaded Lebanon more than once, continually occupied Palestinian and Syrian territory for generations, it's also invaded Egypt as an agressor. Now those nations currently surrounding Israel comprise Jordan, Egypt, and the PA, who all have treaties with Israel - hardly the stuff of 'eradication'. The only neighbouts with any intention of 'eradicating' Israel are hamas, who pose very little threat with their rocket attacks. In the balance of things, which side of that border would you rather have to live in in terms of the risk of a missile landing on your head? Syria just want their land back and to sort out a treaty - a point made clear during the last round of Israeli-Syrian negotiations. Hezbullah pose no real threat to Israel, and Israel might well have finally figured out it's best to just leave them alone to their posturing - fighting them just doesn't work out well for Israel.

IrishTonyO

Just a repost of the link with the International reaction to this attack, every country condemns it, not very often you get such a unanimous response to anything in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_Gaza_flotilla_clash

doncarlos

Foxtrol wrote: »

And I'm pretty sure the injured commando's show the boat was not filled with "peacemakers" either.

Yes, it was filled with people fighting for their right to survive.

Foxtrol

doncarlos wrote: »

Of course I do. Eye witness reports are rarely accurate anyway and as soon as they talk to another eye witness their version can be tainted.

I'm glad you're using skepticism for both sides. Unfortunately many here are not affording this. Both sides have reasons to muddy the truth, the best we can do is to attempt to be somewhat objective when looking at this situation and see that both sides had a role to play in this sad incident.

Scofflaw

It seems that as I thought, the argument is being reframed to a question of whether the people on board did or did not attack the soldiers.

That's a good argument for Israel, because it can win it - they have plenty of evidence that the people on board did attack the soldiers. Whether people choose to believe that evidence is faked or not, it exists.

Equally clearly, Israel illegally dropped soldiers into a tense situation, where the people on board were uncertain of the intentions of the soldiers. The people on board clearly had no premeditated plan of fighting, since they were not in any sense equipped to do so, and the fighting occurred only on one vessel.

That leaves the questions:

1. what right did Israel have to board the vessel in international waters?

2. why did they choose to do it in a fashion that most strongly resembled an assault rather than an official boarding?

3. did they in any way - apart, that is, from being armed soldiers dropping onto decks from helicopters - provoke the protesters on board the ship?

4. were they deployed in such a way as to minimise the chance of a cock-up like this?

5. once things had gone wrong, did they respond with minimum force, or did they over-react?

Personally, I see this as an illegal but predictable action - the plan was clearly to minimise the PR value of the flotilla by simply taking it over in the night and presenting the world with a fait accompli in the morning. For that reason an assault-style boarding was used - the point being rapid ship seizure rather than anything else - and it went wrong. When it went wrong - and it wasn't even slightly surprising that it did - the soldiers reacted with deadly force, even though they had no legal right to be where they were. Their state has responded to condemnation by backing its soldiers, which is fair enough, considering this was clearly a planned action by the state.

Also, it's pretty obvious that Israeli intelligence knew a lot about the convoy, and knew that they could afford to drop their soldiers on lightly armed with riot weapons and only handguns for backup. That gives the lie to Israeli claims that there were weapons aboard.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Archie D Bunker

irishconvert wrote: »

They will not let any building materials through. How can the palestinians rebuild their houses without it? People are living in tents. Do you agree with this?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6502H820100601

Problem is, when they let in building materials, the Palestinians use those to build bunkers and smuggling tunnels and to cook explosives (some building materials can be used in making explosives). They hardly use them to improve the lives of the average Palestinian citizen.

Zulu

prinz wrote: »

So the accounts from people on board are all BS so far are they?

That's not what I said. The point I was making was that clearly lethal force was used; people were shot dead. Why obfuscate that fact?

I have often been on ferries. I have never once had to put on a life jacket.

Have you been on a ferry that has just been warned my a military vessal that it'll be sunk? Have you been on a ferry that was being assaulted by commandos?

...this thread is pointless.

You are indeed correct with this summation, but for the wrong reason. This thread is pointless because it's clearly between a group of people who are outraged by murder and a group of people who only seek to hide & obfuscate the facts surrounding murder.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

And who is talking about long term? The issue is the one ship currently on the way.

The blockade issue extends beyond this one ship - that's the point of the flotilla - obviously flotillas are no substitute for the removal of the blockade.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So their Turkish allies and the Red Cross are involved in a weapons smuggling operation?

Lets accept for a second that the IDF are 'entitled' to search the cargo, why did they chose to do this at night, in international waters, using a surprise raid and killing up to 19 humnaitarian workers.

This was about brute force to put out a message, not stopping non existant weapons.

The raid obviously wasn't a surprise, otherwise there wouldn't have been people there waiting for the commandos and they wouldn't have been hit during and after the descent.

bambooze

New vid..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

IrishTonyO

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Problem is, when they let in building materials, the Palestinians use those to build bunkers and smuggling tunnels and to cook explosives (some building materials can be used in making explosives). They hardly use them to improve the lives of the average Palestinian citizen.

Yeah right they would hardly use cement to rebuild their homes that have been bombed, bulldozed etc. They far prefer to live in tents, what a ridiculous statement

gandalf

Roibead wrote: »

For all you people here that are dupes for terrorists have a good look and "peaceful protesters,Peace activists" dont make me laugh have a good look at the weapons and proof..

The Turkish ship had Turkish terrorists that even the Turkish government were watching and the same day "rent a mob, Palywood in Istanbul"

If you even have a bit of intelligence you can clearly see you supporting terrorists :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=related

Most of the sophisticated weapons in that video are items that I would expect to see in a kitchen or on a working ship. The Slingshots would be classified as non lethal weapons and gas masks are a defensive mechanism obviously there because some people expected tear gas to be used.

Nothing there warrants the use of Special Forces commandos and nothing there warrants the brutal murder of at least 9 people (when are the Israelis going to realise the exact number of victims?).

And of course it doesn't take away from the fact that this was an ILLEGAL operation in International Waters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o&feature=player_embedded

AGAIN I SAY PEACEFUL THE IRONY !!:rolleyes:

What the hell is that, it could have been put together in a studio in Tel Aviv. It proves absolutely nothing.

Again the main fact here that overrides every thing else is this was an illegal action in International Waters that resulted in murder that was followed up with the Kidnapping of over 600 people by a Rogue Nation that thinks it is above International Laws and Resolutions.