Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Nodin

dlofnep wrote: »

I just woke up to read the news. I'm heartbroken.

I have to say I'm suprised at the extent of the killing myself. Certainly there was much of the usual hardman rhetoric from Likud but thats so par for the course it barely registers on the radar. Besides, one expects some sense to prevail behind the scenes.

On a purely cynical level, one would have though it was in their self interest to see off the flotilla with a minimum degree of force. The idea that the ship had arms is never going to fly with all but the most ardent pro-Israelis - theres just too many holes in that particular plot.

galwaybabe

If you do one thing today, make it a boycott of Israeli goods. Remember, it was international pressure of the hitting the pocket variety that helped bring down aparteid in SA. Tell the store managers where you shop that you will boycott their stores until they remove Israeli goods.

IrishTonyO

philstar wrote: »

can't understand a word of it.......where's the evidence?

you obviously didn't watch it all then as some of the reporting is done in English

Nodin

k_mac wrote: »

I thought the Israelis claimed they boarded the ship after they were attacked by gunfire.

'boarded and then were' was the line. Now its 'axes and knives'. Both sides will settle on a story over the next 48 hours and we can see then.

dlofnep

Nodin wrote: »

I have to say I'm suprised at the extent of the killing myself. Certainly there was much of the usual hardman rhetoric from Likud but thats so par for the course it barely registers on the radar. Besides, one expects some sense to prevail behind the scenes.

On a purely cynical level, one would have though it was in their self interest to see off the flotilla with a minimum degree of force. The idea that the ship had arms is never going to fly with all but the most ardent pro-Israelis - theres just too many holes in that particular plot.

I was only talking to one of the lads about it yesterday, as an Israeli spokesperson said that he "hoped the international community would understand Israel's response". I was expecting a little battoning here and there - but christ man - these are people who are just bringing aid to the region that the UN has already confirmed Gaza is seriously lacking.

Ireland better throw out the Israeli ambassador.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nodin wrote: »

I have to say I'm suprised at the extent of the killing myself. Certainly there was much of the usual hardman rhetoric from Likud but thats so par for the course it barely registers on the radar. Besides, one expects some sense to prevail behind the scenes.

On a purely cynical level, one would have though it was in their self interest to see off the flotilla with a minimum degree of force. The idea that the ship had arms is never going to fly with all but the most ardent pro-Israelis - theres just too many holes in that particular plot.

+1.

Have to agree with that.

I'm surprised at the casuality figures too.

Usually a figure you'd expect from a long drawn out firefight the likes of which you'd see in an urban warfare scenario and not one you'd expect from a boarding party of the high sea's.

irishh_bob

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

One last update just in. The Israeli Ambassador to Ireland has been summoned by Michael Martin to a meeting this evening.

expect plenty of hand wringing from minister martin , this goverment is terrified of s.i.p.t.u , do we honestly believe they would have the guts to properley repremand the israeli amabassador

baalthor

Interesting that they attacked a Turkish ship just after Turkey were trying to help the Iranians resolve their nuclear issue.

Nodin

dlofnep wrote: »

I was only talking to one of the lads about it yesterday, as an Israeli spokesperson said that he "hoped the international community would understand Israel's response". I was expecting a little battoning here and there - but christ man - these are people who are just bringing aid to the region that the UN has already confirmed Gaza is seriously lacking.

Ireland better throw out the Israeli ambassador.

Indeed - a more rough version of greenpeace versus the whalers. Certainly theres more room for disaster there, but night boarding with special forces? Nutty stuff.

There's little chance of that, I'm afraid.

paulaa

Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »

+1.

Have to agree with that.

I'm surprised at the casuality figures too.

Usually a figure you'd expect from a long drawn out firefight the likes of which you'd see in an urban warfare scenario and not one you'd expect from a boarding party of the high sea's.

Not surprising when you consider they had nowhere to run to and where the soldiers started shooting before they hit the deck.

arybvtcw0eolkf

irishh_bob wrote: »

expect plenty of hand wringing from minister martin , this goverment is terrified of s.i.p.t.u , do we honestly believe they would have the guts to properley repremand the israeli amabassador

Its just diplomacy at work.

When our personnel were killed or injured in Lebanon (by the IDF) our government would make diplomatic protests and summon the Israeli embassador to a meeting.

Zulu

Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »

Usually a figure you'd expect from a long drawn out firefight the likes of which you'd see in an urban warfare scenario and not one you'd expect from a boarding party of the high sea's.

Perhaps, if both sides were armed.

But in fairness, commandos vs unarmed civilians on a boat. It wouldn't take to long to knock up a body count if they put their minds to it.

Nijmegen

I'm afraid that there likely is no convincing people of either cloth on the Israeli issue in general.

In my considered view:

Israel was wrong to board these vessels. At least some of the people on them were, I believe, seeking to goad Israel into this sort of action and now both sides have got what they deserved for this brinkmanship: Israel has tarnished its reputation, and the group leading this convoy has got its PR victory at a heavy price.

As to Israel in general, I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself from threats on its border. It used to be states like Jordon, Syria, Egypt and others all attacking them at once. Nowadays its rocket firing terrorists in Lebanon and Gaza.

These terrorists are a lot harder to take out, a lot harder to stop. But, they fire rockets into Israeli territory and cities and Israel has every right to use its superior military muscle - as it did when all of its fraternal brothers next door attacked at once - to keep Israeli people safe.

The Israeli people would demand nothing less. And the Israeli people elect governments who do this.

Another big difference between Israel and places like Syria and Iran, who supply terrorists around the globe: Israel is a representative democracy, and I daresay the Israeli people wouldn't mind if one day they could all get along down there.

The arab nations have often used Israel as an excuse to divert attention away from their internal problems. Try living a while in Syria versus Israel, and tell me which is the progressive type of state you'd prefer.

Ahh, it's all a big roundabout argument.

Nobody is right over there. There's just a fecking lot of people trying to live on a slim bit of land with scant natural resources, and it has been the powerplay destination of superpowers and religious fundamentalists for the latter half of the 20th century, and for centuries before that.

It'd be great if they could all get along. But I don't think that the first step is Israel allow arms to flow into Gaza to be fired into Israel by lifting any blockades.

B0jangles

The original defence given by the Israeli government was that they boarded, were attacked with axes/sticks by the people on board and that the shooting only started when one of them managed to take a soldiers gun.

This is patently untrue, the fact that the story has changed 2-3 times since makes it bloody obvious that the truth makes Israel look very very bad.

paulaa

baalthor wrote: »

Interesting that they attacked a Turkish ship just after Turkey were trying to help the Iranians resolve their nuclear issue.

Yes. Also interesting that they picked this particular ship which was carrying Sheik Raed Salah, head of the Islamic movement in Israel, who is seriously injured.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Hellrazer

irishh_bob wrote: »

expect plenty of hand wringing from minister martin , this goverment is terrified of s.i.p.t.u , do we honestly believe they would have the guts to properley repremand the israeli amabassador

If the government had any balls they`d send the Israeli ambassador packing.Not going to happen though.

Hellrazer

Scien wrote: »

I hope all Irish citizens are safe.

+1

irishh_bob

Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »

Its just diplomacy at work.

When our personnel were killed or injured in Lebanon (by the IDF) our government would make diplomatic protests and summon the Israeli embassador to a meeting.

more like political posturing

ghostdancer

B0jangles wrote: »

Just got a link to a video showing that the Israeli soldiers were shooting BEFORE they boarded the ship so the story that they were attacked and fired in self-defence is complete and total BULL****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR2GQQBGTlY

expect israel to tell of how they "came under fire" while approaching.

they always tell the truth.


just like they didn't use white phosphorus when attacking UN hospitals in Gaza. :rolleyes:

Nodin

Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »

+1.

Have to agree with that.

I'm surprised at the casuality figures too.

Usually a figure you'd expect from a long drawn out firefight the likes of which you'd see in an urban warfare scenario and not one you'd expect from a boarding party of the high sea's.

Though I claim no expertise, it is noticable that once any unexpected shot goes off, all hell tends to break loose at least momentarily. Add to that darkness, and pre-existing tension amongst the boarding party and its more than possible than 10 would be dead within seconds.

All thats required for that to happen is a warning shot when none have been authorised, a slip climbing up a stair or on a rolling deck.....boarding craft is reckoned to be an extremely dangerous task at the best of times, or so I've been informed.

While I doubt a prearranged massacre was pre-planned, launching such a raid on a ship at night really does show an approach far more heavy than was required.

paulaa

Scien wrote: »

"Israel's Channel 10 TV says 19 activists were killed and 26 wounded."

This is really insane.
It must have meant over 50 people were shot at onboard. That's some reaction from the IDF in defence of being hit with a mop.
Sounds like a massacre more than anything else.

I hope all Irish citizens are safe.

It was on radio that all the Irish on the MV Rachel Corrie are safe

Eliot Rosewater

The spokesman for the Israeli Ministry for Defence said that there are official aid channels that the group could have used instead of going in directly. Is there a truth to this? If so, why didn't this group use those channels?

dlofnep wrote: »

I was only talking to one of the lads about it yesterday, as an Israeli spokesperson said that he "hoped the international community would understand Israel's response".

So in a way the flotilla was being provocative, in that they knew they were going to get a response. This kind of thing is hardly uncommon in this day in age, and is a notorious tactic of some groups for getting "positive" PR for themselves.

The issue really rests on whether those aboard the flotilla could have used the aforementioned aid channels.

Of course, it's always unfortunate when there are deaths, and the number does seem high.

Amhran Nua

Scien wrote: »

Yeah, instead of giving Israel $3bn this year they might only give $2.9bn.

US aid to Israel isn't just directly financial, they have corporate trade agreements that come to many multiples of that amount, among other things.

Scien wrote: »

"Israel's Channel 10 TV says 19 activists were killed and 26 wounded."

Thats a bloody slaughter. The only way they could clock up that kind of bodycount is if they went deck to deck firing indiscriminately. This is way too far.

alastair

The basic notion that Israel can make Hamas go away by restricting access to pencils/chocs/bricks/whatever is the base cause of this problem. Whatever about protecting it's citizens, this policy is clearly counter-productive for Israel. A return to the full 2000 items allowed into Gaza would deflate the rationale for the flotilla, and unless there's some devious means of firing pencils into Israel, the security implications are minimal. Longer term it's just a fact that Israel is going to have to engage with Hamas (and vice-versa).

arybvtcw0eolkf

Zulu wrote: »

Perhaps, if both sides were armed.

But in fairness, commandos vs unarmed civilians on a boat. It wouldn't take to long to knock up a body count if they put their minds to it.

Even if both sides where armed the body count is still high.

And "put their minds to it" - thats the crux of the matter, did they "put their minds" to killing these people?.

Its hard getting at these facts in a thread like this because of the usual reactionary clap trap thrown out by some.

Even given all the arguments for and against the stupidity (or not) of the people involved in the floatilla if it was found that the IDF carried out a deliberate and calculated murder spree it would rock my belief in them and I'd certainly call for tough sanctions too.

Its an awfully high body count.

bernardo mac

Israel is a Nuclear Power and will be ruthless in the extreme because it has political and military clout.

kev6319

It is not the first time that Israel has killed aid workers not so long ago they Killed four U.N. observers.
Killed Red Cross workers, Droped bombs on UN a Hospital & school ,Shot Irish's Unifil, Austrian, Canadian, Chinese and Finnish all dead (How Many American's Have they Killed ?) You see they know what they are at.....Now its piracy on the high seas...to add to their crimes, Lets hope everyone can account for all the Passports...
It was People Power That got rid of the Apartheid in South Africa.
What Israel is doing is no different.

IrishTonyO

Israel's response to the attack, pretty sickening

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0531/newsspecial_av.html?2763072,null,230

Fuhrer

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The spokesman for the Israeli Ministry for Defence said that there are official aid channels that the group could have used instead of going in directly. Is there a truth to this? If so, why didn't this group use those channels?

Yeah,


The Isreali government takes all Aid for Gaza itself first and is then supposed to distribute it.