Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

KyussBishop

Roibead wrote: »

If Russia had these ships coming to break a blockade of Chechnea, its military would have attacked and destroyed the ships. If the USA were blockading a portion of Mexico due to a terrorist entity there, it would have opened live fire on the ships. Only the Jew haters of the world condemn Israel with irrational and factual accusations. Let’s face it, the world is full of hypocrites and people who side with evil terrorists and their supporters to satisfy their Jew-hatred.

Also from Roibead in the past (not in the context of this discussion btw):

Roibead wrote: »

I actually do and learn to spell I was born and bred in Israel as a Christian for 12 years until my family came back to Ireland.

I will not respond back to your indymedia wannabe tripe as you clearly are misinformed and people such as you I just smile at as your in need of help.

So kindly go and live with the terrorists you so much love.

prinz

doncarlos wrote: »

You can't but you are presenting Israeli reports as facts

BBC last I checked was not Israeli.

Memnoch

Foxtrol wrote: »

Obviously propaganda. Both sides are at it and Israel are making sure the Flotilla only have word of mouth versus their video evidence. No one can believe that if the Flotilla had evidence of some people on the boat with weapons would release it, just like no one can expect Israel to release anything of them being heavy handed.

Right so Israel have confisicated all evidence that the Flotilla have of Israeli actions and this does not show to you that the Israelis have zero credibility?

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

BBC last I checked was not Israeli.

The BBC have not claimed what you are implying. You are attempting to spin bbc reports to mean something they do not.

doncarlos

prinz wrote: »

I tend not to attack people first, that's the difference. I cannot rely on a defence of "I thought he was going to kill me" simply if someone is an armed soldier/police officer.

prinz wrote: »

If someone tries to kill me with a dagger sure as hell if I had a weapon I'd use it.

Hmmmmm

Roibead

sensibleken wrote: »

do not play the anti-semitic card. its rediculous. nearly every country has condemned the actions for a start

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_Gaza_flotilla_clash

the anti semetic arguement suggests to me that you have nothing factual to argue with

I thought you said every country in the world they don’t all seem to be there.

Just for the book, I have been in Gaza and Lebanon and seen first-hand what your oppressed people do to their own.

When you actually know what you’re talking about come back to me and apologise.

Zulu

prinz wrote: »

Completely unbiased of course. Any back up?

Cut's both ways that, doesn't it? You haven't provided anything other than reports from the guilty party.

A guilty war criminal in this case.

prinz

alastair wrote: »

You discount the statements that the other ships' passengers were subjected to violent (if non-lethal) assault from the IDF without provocation? Because why would you expect different on this ship?

No I don't. I also don't discount the fact that no one on those other ships died. Nor do I have reason to believe that the violence used on those other ships was excessive. The passengers and crew themselves acknowledged they put up a passive resistance and that this was over come. What they didn't say is the the IDF were indiscriminately using violence on everyone for the sake of it.

Memnoch wrote: »

The BBC have not claimed what you are implying. You are attempting to spin bbc reports to mean something they do not.

I didn't imply anything. You wrote off a BBC article as an Israeli report.

doncarlos wrote: »

Hmmmmm

Got a point to make? I clearly stated I would act in self defence. I would not attack someone first and then claim self defence. Massive difference.

Roibead

KyussBishop wrote: »

Also from Roibead in the past (not in the context of this discussion btw):

You have a problem with my nationality and beliefs do you ...

doncarlos

prinz wrote: »

Got a point to make?

Yes you feel it is ok for someone in uniform to defend themselves if they feel they going to be killed but it's not ok for a civilian to do likewise.

prinz

Zulu wrote: »

Cut's both ways that, doesn't it? You haven't provided anything other than reports from the guilty party.

I have repeatedly said the truth will lie somewhere in the middle.

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

I didn't imply anything. You wrote off a BBC article as an Israeli report.

I absolutely did not. I simply said that what you saying the article implies is pro-Israeli spin.

Please show me the quote where the BBC says that the aid workers INTENDED to attack the commandos and were NOT acting in self-defence, and were NOT in fear for their lives.

All the BBC said was that the video clips, showed protesters holding make shift weapons. They at no point claim that this implies (as you are) that the protesters intended to assault the commandos and that they weren't in fear for their lives.

Also, since the boarding was illegal and the commandos were using violence (lethal or not) by definition the protesters were acting in self-defence.

wes

prinz wrote: »

I have repeatedly said the truth will lie somewhere in the middle.

Yes, but you have also said the following:

prinz wrote: »

You have your timeline mixed up again. The soldiers didn't hit the deck ready to start killing people.

Which is what the IDF claims, and which the floatilla people dispute.

prinz

doncarlos wrote: »

Yes you feel it is ok for someone in uniform to defend themselves if they feel they going to be killed but it's not ok for a civilian to do likewise.

(a) I (a civilian) said if I were attacked I would defend myself.

(b) I said someone simply having a gun by virtue of being a soldier doesn't give me sufficient fear of my life to warrant killing them first.

Foxtrol

Memnoch wrote: »

This is a ridiculous and in fact idiotic question. You can keep going one step back to reach a point you are more comfortable with...

for example I could answer your point above with...

If the Israeli's hadn't set up an illegal blockade or starved the palestinians of ESSENTIAL aid supplies for the past three years there would have been no need for anyone to run the blockade.

or with the fact that

if they HAD gone to Ashod, much of the aid would not have reached the Palestinian people. Because the Israelis arbitarily decide what should be allowed and what shouldn't, with banned items including, chocolate, pasta, notebooks, pencils etc etc etc.

Then you would start about the Hamas rockets...

and I would have to respond that collective punishment of a civilian population is illegal under the geneva convention... and round and round it goes...

So instead of repeatedly trying to divert the discussion... why don't you show me a SINGLE action by the aid workers that was illegal?

I've demonstrated clearly how the Israelis have acted illegally and indeed CRIMINALLY every single step of the way. The blame therefore, lies ENTIRELY, with them.

Eh sorry let me refresh your memory of your earlier post:

Let's just lay it out shall be....

Here's what I say...

There would be no deaths if...

1) The Israelis hadn't set up an illegal blockage of Gaza

2) The Israelis were allowing unrestricted humanitarian aid into Gaza as MANDATED by the UN.

3) The Israelis had inspected the cargo in Cyprus as they had been invited to.

4) The Israelis had not attacked the flotilla in the middle of the night with assault troops.

5) The Israelis had not instigated panic by firing onto the passengers on the ship before boarding (whether plastic or live ammunition).

I agreed with all of these. I then made two other points that there would be no deaths if

6) The boats surrendered peacefully

7) That they gave in to the request to stop at the Israeli port.

I answered your points because I am full agreement with nearly everyone on this board that Israel was wrong. I however dont believe that 100% of the blame is with the Israelis (obviously most of it does).

If you dont want to agree or disagree with my points that I believe would also have stopped the bloodshed but you're silence and avoidance speaks volumes

KyussBishop

Roibead wrote: »

You have a problem with my nationality and beliefs do you ...

No just your views on this issue Throwing around the anti-semite card is a dishonest way of slurring people you disagree with, and is shameful.

prinz

wes wrote: »

Yes, but you have also said the following:
Which is what the IDF claims, and which the floatilla people dispute.

The IDF video and the on deck live broadcast correspond with that. Don't need to listen to IDF claims I can see it for myself. I am not the one who has to rely on spurious claims like the reporter at the time obviously didn't know what has happening 10 feet away.

wes

prinz wrote: »

(b) I said someone simply having a gun by virtue of being a soldier doesn't give me sufficient fear of my life to warrant killing them first.

We are talking about the IDF here, who have a bit of rep of killing civilians. So we are not talking about, lets say a Norwegian soldier here or something, but the IDF.

Now, personally I would certainly fear being killed by a member of the IDF based on there past actions in regards to civilians.

gandalf

Roibead wrote: »

Just for the book, I have been in Gaza and Lebanon and seen first-hand what your oppressed people do to their own.

Just out of curiosity what capacity were you in Gaza and Lebanon?

Zulu

prinz wrote: »

I have repeatedly said the truth will lie somewhere in the middle.

The truth that Israel intentionally committed a war crime by boarding a civilian ship in international waters and murdering it's passengers?

Where's that the middle of exactly?

Memnoch

prinz wrote: »

(a) I (a civilian) said if I were attacked I would defend myself.

(b) I said someone simply having a gun by virtue of being a soldier doesn't give me sufficient fear of my life to warrant killing them first.

Except those aboard the ship WERE in fear of their lives due to the illegal 3 am assault on their ship in international waters by fully armed Israeli commandos that have a reputation for killing civilians, aid workers and journalists.

"Mohamed Vall, Al Jazeera reporter
The Israeli assault took those of us on the ship by complete surprise.

During that hour an half in the early morning everybody on board the ship thought that no-one would survive the Israeli attack because we saw about 30 war vessels surrounding this ship and helicopters attacking with very luminous bombs, the sound of them makes you think you are dead

That was a fear of war, complete war, on a ship that was full of men, women and even children."

Foxtrol

Memnoch wrote: »

Right so Israel have confisicated all evidence that the Flotilla have of Israeli actions and this does not show to you that the Israelis have zero credibility?

They obviously have less credibility (though both sides wouldnt have much credibility to start off with) but I'd believe the videos I see more than eye witnesses.

wes

prinz wrote: »

The IDF video and the on deck live broadcast correspond with that. Don't need to listen to IDF claims I can see it for myself.

You seem to be the only making this claim, when everyone who has seen the video says otherwise and not to mention people who were there seem to say otherwise.

Roibead

deadtiger wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what capacity were you in Gaza and Lebanon?

Work it out for yourself

stackerman

Roibead wrote: »

If Russia had these ships coming to break a blockade of Chechnea, its military would have attacked and destroyed the ships. If the USA were blockading a portion of Mexico due to a terrorist entity there, it would have opened live fire on the ships. Only the Jew haters of the world condemn Israel with irrational and factual accusations. Let’s face it, the world is full of hypocrites and people who side with evil terrorists and their supporters to satisfy their Jew-hatred.

God (any one you like) help you if you really think that

IrishTonyO

Seemingly the Israeli ambassador has pulled out of a meeting that the Oireachteas requested for tomorrow

"“This u-turn by an ambassador is almost without precedent and as a committee we are extremely dissatisfied with this action,” the Fianna Fil TD said.

“We feel the ambassador has a responsibility to answer questions in an open and democratic forum. People want answers, however, unfortunately this opportunity has been lost.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0602/breaking56.html

prinz

wes wrote: »

You seem to be the only making this claim, when everyone who has seen the video says otherwise and not to mention people who were there seem to say otherwise.

What have you some info which shows that the IDF were killing people before they actually boarded?

20Cent

Foxtrol wrote: »

Eh sorry let me refresh your memory of your earlier post:



I agreed with all of these. I then made two other points that there would be no deaths if

6) The boats surrendered peacefully

7) That they gave in to the request to stop at the Israeli port.

8) 3/4ers of the aid is confiscated.

doncarlos

prinz wrote: »

(a) I (a civilian) said if I were attacked I would defend myself.

(b) I said someone simply having a gun by virtue of being a soldier doesn't give me sufficient fear of my life to warrant killing them first.

That's fair enough and if the soldiers opened fire?

Look like I've said nobody outside of the boats and IDF knows for certain what happened before the video released by the IDF. The IDF have not released this video which would prove their account of events this leads me to believe that the truth is closer to what those on the boats are claiming. Why are you leaning towards what the IDF are claiming?

wes

prinz wrote: »

What have you some info which shows that the IDF were killing people before they actually boarded?

The floatilla people have made such a claim, and I find it hard to believe you are unaware of it.