Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

halkar

Mark Regev, Israeli PM spokesman, on Channel 4 news, UK asked about MV Rachel Corrie ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06gRN_tL74

Near the end is funny, something like:

'So what are you gonna do when Turkey sends warships over with the next flotilla?'
'Hmmm... wat? You serious? You cant be serious!'
...'Actually, this is a very serious situation...'
'You mean Turkey will send warships to attack Israel? Why would they do that?'
'Cause you killed their citizens?'
'You cant be serious!'
'Check with the Turks...thats what their prime minister said... Call them!'
'What? Are you serious???'

I feel sorry for this guy. Comical Ali II

omega666

bambooze wrote: »

Oops.. bit of a big image there, sorry.

Anyway more pics here, including night vision gear..

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/06/02/photos-of-bullet-proof-vests-sawn-off-rods-night-vision-goggles-and-rifle-scope-found-on-mavi-marmara-2-june-2010/

Yes yes I know its from the IDF therefore none of you will believe it so I'm just banging my head against the wall as usual.

dude, i think your arguing for the sake of it now.

you cant honestly believe that this was pre organsised beforehand by some Islamic extrmeist group intent on challeing the IDF based an arsenal of weapons of 1 single catapult, 1 single item that looks similar to a homemade petrol bomb, some iron bars and some kitchen knives.
Was there actually any guns found on board?

would it not occur to you that if they were planning this before handhand they would have been a lot more heavily armed with actual proper weapons?

Scofflaw

bambooze wrote: »

Express an intent to kill the president, see how that works out for you.


I dont know but some interpretations of the law seem to suggest that they were within rights due to the expressed intent to run the blockade, or something like that.

For that to work, they'd have to be attacking a blockade in time of war with armed vessels. This wasn't a military attack on the blockade, it was a moral challenge to the blockade which Israel failed a lot more spectacularly than it needed to.

regards,
Scofflaw

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

Isn't that basically 99% of the other posters in this thread now anyway?

No the majority in this thread are pro humanity and decency and morality.

gandalf

stevedublin wrote: »

Joe Biden, the American vice-president, said that Israel was right to stop the flotilla from delivering "aid" to Gaza.


Israel 6
Hamas 0

Do you have a source for that?

bambooze

deadtiger wrote: »

Which President?

Take your pick.

You don't know?

Which Interpretations?

Was posted here by someone I think, dont remember where now.

Bob_Harris

bambooze wrote: »

Who was defending who? A flotilla of 6 ships trying to break an israeli blockade so they could bring supplies to a terrorist organization which is at war with israel..

I think you will find these terrorists you refer to are freedom fighters.

If everyone in Gaza is a terrorist, then everyone in Ireland is an IRA member.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Take your pick.

No you specify what you mean. WHICH PRESIDENT?

Was posted here by someone I think, dont remember where now.

umm errr I don't know eh :rolleyes:

Bob_Harris

deadtiger wrote: »

Do you have a source for that?

Sky Sports.

bambooze

omega666 wrote: »

would it not occur to you that if they were planning this before handhand they would have been a lot more heavily armed with actual proper weapons?

No, assuming turkish security was doing their job, guns would not get on board plus if they did, their claims of being innocent humanitarians would be even harder to believe.

Kind of like football hooligans bringing in all sorts of nasty improvised weaponry with the intent to riot at the match..

Irish_Nomad

Manic Moran wrote: »

Ref NATO treaty obligations.

jank wrote:

What about international waters? Is that covered in the geographic requirement?

No.

Article 6 does specify international waters covered by the treaty and since the attack happened in the Med it seems that article 5 could be invoked.

ARTICLE 6
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
- on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
- on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Scofflaw

a terrorist organization which is at war with israel

A terrorist organisation cannot be at war with anyone.

regards,
Scofflaw

stevedublin

deadtiger wrote: »

Do you have a source for that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4409353

and

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0610/Biden_on_Gaza_raid_Israel_has_a_right_to_know_if_arms_being_smuggled.html?showall

karma_

bambooze wrote: »

No, assuming turkish security was doing their job, guns would not get on board plus if they did, their claims of being innocent humanitarians would be even harder to believe.

Kind of like football hooligans bringing in all sorts of nasty improvised weaponry with the intent to riot at the match..

So it was better to kill 9 of them to be sure they were real humanitarians, and now that we know they had no guns they were still to blame because they improvised with on-board tools/equipment?

that is a joke my friend.

bambooze

Bob_Harris wrote: »

I think you will find these terrorists you refer to are freedom fighters.

If everyone in Gaza is a terrorist, then everyone in Ireland is an IRA member.

Hamas rules gaza, anything shipped into gaza goes through them, Hamas is recognized around the world as terrorist.

If no blockade was in place, iran would be free ship loads of missiles and heavy weapons into gaza just as they have done with hezbolllah in south lebanon. Basically a nightmare scenario for israel - radical iran backed islamists on their northern and southern borders armed with missiles that could reach any point in israel. The stakes are VERY high for israel which is why this is taken so seriously.

bambooze

deadtiger wrote: »

No you specify what you mean. WHICH PRESIDENT?



umm errr I don't know eh :rolleyes:

Mentioned in this article..
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece

Scofflaw

stevedublin wrote: »

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4409353

and

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0610/Biden_on_Gaza_raid_Israel_has_a_right_to_know_if_arms_being_smuggled.html?showall

Some thought-provoking stuff there:

Now, the one thing we have to do is not forget the plight of these Palestinians there, not Hamas, the -- they're in bad shape. So we have put as much pressure and as much cajoling on Israel as we can to allow them to get building materials in, glass --

Charlie Rose: That's what they're trying to bring in, building materials.

Joe Biden: Yes, we know that, but they could have easily brought it in here and we'd get it through. And so now the question is what do we do? Well, we had made it clear, the President of the United States has spoken three times, yesterday with Bibi, or the day before yesterday, he's spoken once yesterday with a guy that I have spent a fair amount of time with, with Prime Minister Erdogan in Turkey; the Turks, we passed a resolution in the U.N. saying we need a transparent and open investigation of what happened. It looks like things are --

Charlie Rose: International investigation --

Joe Biden: Well, an investigation run by the Israelis, but we're open to international participation, just like the investigation run on the sunken sub in -- off the coast of Korea. That was run by South Korea, but the international community joined in that investigation. And so that is very possible here as well. I might add by the way for all those who say the Israelis, you know, you know, you can't trust them, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled today that every one of the people on those ships had to be released immediately, immediately.

I like the idea that an investigation run by Israel into this incident would be the same as the investigation run by South Korea into the sinking of one of its submarines,

amused,
Scofflaw

gandalf

stevedublin wrote: »

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4409353

and

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0610/Biden_on_Gaza_raid_Israel_has_a_right_to_know_if_arms_being_smuggled.html?showall

He also said

"You can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not,"

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Mentioned in this article..
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece

The same article that ends with this sentence.

The more important question is whether the blockade itself is causing excessive damage to the civilian population of Gaza. If so, it is illegal and must end.

dlofnep

bambooze wrote: »

Hamas rules gaza, anything shipped into gaza goes through them, Hamas is recognized around the world as terrorist.

Hamas are the democratically elected Government of Gaza. Of course everything goes through them. You either send aid, or you don't. If you don't - Palestinians will die.

The IDF are recognized around the world as terrorists also - but if there was a humanitarian crisis in Israel, we would send aid to them too.

bambooze wrote: »

If no blockade was in place, iran would be free ship loads of missiles and heavy weapons into gaza just as they have done with hezbolllah in south lebanon. Basically a nightmare scenario for israel - radical iran backed islamists on their northern and southern borders armed with missiles that could reach any point in israel. The stakes are VERY high for israel which is why this is taken so seriously.

You understand that the blockade fuels extremism, right? If Israel did not illegally occupy Palestinian territories, and did not enforce an illegal blockade - then you would have a much more moderate environment in Palestine.

Israel places collective punishment on the Palestinian people, 1.5 million alone in Gaza. It is illegal. You either adhere to international law, or you don't. If you don't - you should be held accountable like any other state - no exceptions.

paulaa

bambooze wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Gas masks, flak jackets, metal bars possibly cut from the railings or something like that (with all those cutting machines also found - see earlier photos), wooden clubs, a large array of knives (not just kitchen knives!), petrol bombs and more.. yes all the things one expects to find just lying around on a ship in the middle of the sea. This was planned, they were prepared for fighting.

http://ibnkafkasobiterdicta.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/gaza-flotilla-how-israels-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-fakes-photos-of-seized-weapons/

stevedublin

deadtiger wrote: »

He also said

He said that Israel was right to stop the unfettered flow of goods (which could include weapons or materials that could be used to manufacture weapons) to Hamas-controlled Gaza.
End of.

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

I'd like to know where were the reporters from respectable news orgs on board? Was there no bbc crew or anyone like that? Only al jazeera and turkish tv?

Nice to know that neither Turkish media or al Jazeera are 'respectable'. Why's that then?

A Dub in Glasgo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Some thought-provoking stuff there:



I like the idea that an investigation run by Israel into this incident would be the same as the investigation run by South Korea into the sinking of one of its submarines,

amused,
Scofflaw

Baffling stuff and this Biden chap is VP of the USA?

He makes Bertie sound good

karma_

alastair wrote: »

Nice to know that neither Turkish media or al Jazeera are 'respectable'. Why's that then?

Only Israeli sources can be believed though, didn't you get the memo?

bambooze

alastair wrote: »

Nice to know that neither Turkish media or al Jazeera are 'respectable'. Why's that then?

Reasonable expectation of bias in this case, being a turkish flotilla etc..

Also me not being turkish, I'd rather trust the beeb or some other mainstream english language news org with a track record for fair reporting. Common sense really.

IrishTonyO

stevedublin wrote: »

He said that Israel was right to stop the unfettered flow of goods (which could include weapons or materials that could be used to manufacture weapons) to Hamas-controlled Gaza.
End of.

Now look at the offical UN response endorsed by the US, or have a look at the responses from other countries around the world, this link has been posted many time in this thread already but here you go again, have a read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_Gaza_flotilla_clash

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

No, actual flak jackets (not orange lifejackets) were also found.

Those would be the flack jackets in the aid cargo (and were not worn by anyone defending their ship) - just like the flack jackets all the emergency services wear in the region (the clue being the red crescent on them) - and shouldn't be considered as dangerous as say, a plate, or a handsaw - the sort of sophisticated weaponry used to repel the illegal military boarding.

Irlandese

Nijmegen wrote: »

They were ships with an intent to run a blockade, wait till they're inshore and it's too late. Plus, you come in range of the guns of the peace loving Hamas.

You are on a loser here, friend.
The blockade busters were hoping for a PR victory and got one.
Some of the organisers are probably quite pleased at the body count too.
That is the dirty nature of politics.
There were activists ready and intent on harming armed soldiers who were clearly trying to avoid a shooting intervention, but were stymied by violent activists with a variety of deadly improvised weapons that while not AKs, could still easily kill a soldier following orders.
What do people expect? There was a blockade. There were warnings and there was a measured if clumsy attempt at an intervention before the boats got within firing range of the Gaza strip.
Nearly all we can read here is unfortunately biased and hysterical diatribe against Israel.
I do not read too many people here with a real interest in finding a negotiated solution. That will certainly please the fanatics who dreamed up the flotilla in the first place and allowed the violent fanatics to force armed soldiers to open fire to save the lives of their comrades in arms.
A novel idea ! Read my post, carefully, before repeating the same mindless cant back at me, as I see here on these pages, please guys !
I used to be a very pro-palestinian suporter until I began to open my eyes to the facts and after spending a lot of years in pre and post war humanitarian interventions. My ideas and hopes are forged from experience and direct involvement and real interest in finding a just solution and peace with justice and security for all in the ME, including peace-loving Israelis, but especially the children in the camps and most especially the female children, who face a very bleak future under the Islamic misogeny promoted by Hamas.
Time for some reality and a lot more honesty here, I think.

caseyann

I heard on nuacht,a belguim girl had her nose broken and they were not allowed water or food,and were treated awful.Is that true?