Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

bambooze

BluePlanet wrote: »

Honestly is there a POINT to this video?
Is it just your idea to spam this thread with what you think is material that denigrates the crew?

Seriously? I am denigrating "the crew" by posting a vid of a "peace activist" on board saying he wants to be a shahid.. given the violent events that transpired I fail to see how this vid is not extremely relevant.

It seems that any evidence at all that shows anyone on board in any negative light is automatically rejected here no matter what. Instead you'd all just like to quibble over the vagaries of international and maritime law which few here really know anything about (myself included).

droidus

lol. Here are some basic facts.

The blockade is illegal, and has been condemned by the UN, every NGO and the security council.

The flotilla was not carrying arms.

Therefore the activists had every right to defend themselves from attack in international waters. Its irrelevant that one activist wanted to 'martyr' himself (if this is the case).

BluePlanet

bambooze wrote: »

Seriously? I am denigrating "the crew" by posting a vid of a "peace activist" on board saying he wants to be a shahid.. given the violent events that transpired I fail to see how this vid is not extremely relevant.

It seems that any evidence at all that shows anyone on board in any negative light is automatically rejected here no matter what. Instead you'd all just like to quibble over the vagaries of international and maritime law which few here really know anything about (myself included).

Did he describe himself as a "peace activist"?
Or is that just another of your Strawmen?

Is this video taken before the IDF boarded, or after?
If after, how do you know the guy wasn't beatup and hurting and expressing that he'd rather be dead (right now)?
Your taking things out of context.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Instead you'd all just like to quibble over the vagaries of international and maritime law which few here really know anything about (myself included).

You see its that kind of laissez faire attitude to International Law that's worrying.

In the past other nations have been let away with breaching International Law. It was known as appeasement and we all know where that policy got us don't we.

droidus

Ehud Barak is quite clear about the right to self defence:

"we live in the Middle East, in a place where there is no mercy for the weak and there aren't second chances for those who don't defend themselves."

sceptre

bambooze wrote: »

Seriously? I am denigrating "the crew" by posting a vid of a "peace activist" on board saying he wants to be a shahid.. given the violent events that transpired I fail to see how this vid is not extremely relevant.

Kindly re-read this on-thread moderator instruction and edit your post accordingly asap (preferably quickly).

The relevant part is:
"Further video postings must follow this format: a link to the video (not an embed) and a short summary of what the video contains. People can decide for themselves whether they want to watch them."

As I often say, these moderator notices aren't provided just to take up space. Applies to all, obviously.

/mod

bambooze

BluePlanet wrote: »

Did he describe himself as a "peace activist"?
Or is that just another of your Strawmen?

Is this video taken before the IDF boarded, or after?
If after, how do you know the guy wasn't beatup and hurting and expressing that he'd rather be dead (right now)?
Your taking things out of context.

The vid is quite clear, and if not a peace activist, what was he doing on the ship?

He looked rather cheerful for someone "beatup and hurting" and judging from what he said it was filmed before the fighting.

joolsveer

Does anyone know if Israel intends holding on to the ships of the flotilla or will they be returned to their owners?

karma_

bambooze wrote: »

The vid is quite clear, and if not a peace activist, what was he doing on the ship?

He looked rather cheerful for someone "beatup and hurting" and judging from what he said it was filmed before the fighting.

Aye, lets not let FACTS get in the way of an assumption now.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

The vid is quite clear, and if not a peace activist, what was he doing on the ship?

He looked rather cheerful for someone "beatup and hurting" and judging from what he said it was filmed before the fighting.

What do you want some one decked out in flowers and stroking bunny rabbits singing Kumbaya?

I can't view the video as I am in work but unless the guy is armed with conventional weapons then the video has no relevance to the fact an illegal operation occurred in International Waters.

wes

bambooze wrote: »

The vid is quite clear, and if not a peace activist, what was he doing on the ship?

He looked rather cheerful for someone "beatup and hurting" and judging from what he said it was filmed before the fighting.

Well considering the IDF well known rep for killing civilians, there was of course a possibility of dieing to break the illegal siege, and helping the people of Gaza. So the guy saying he is willing to die for that cause, is not the same as him saying he will engage in violence. So once again no proof of any intent of violence, just more smearing.

At the end of the day it was the IDF who engaged in violence and murder. No amount of obfuscation and smearing will change those facts.

paulaa

Some information on the MV Rachel Corrie. It's from the Israeli Haaretz newspaper.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/new-gaza-bound-aid-ship-may-agree-to-dock-and-unload-in-ashdod-1.293855

BluePlanet

bambooze wrote: »

The vid is quite clear, and if not a peace activist, what was he doing on the ship?

He looked rather cheerful for someone "beatup and hurting" and judging from what he said it was filmed before the fighting.

Let's assume he was talking about himself, and not merely re-telling what someone else said to him once upon a time.
Let's assume he said this before the IDF attacked.
Could it be a show of bravado?
Manning-up ahead of the IDF attack?
Why does the video start with a black screen for ages, and then only shows a snippet of the conversation?
Also, what is the video prove in your opinion?

It doesn't negate the fact that the IDF attacked the ship, and the crew were defending the ship.
The crew and ship did not attack the IDF.
They were in international waters.
The IDF boarded without permission.
They deserved whatever they got.

Your attempts to denigrate the crew don't alter those realities.

bambooze

wes wrote: »

Well considering the IDF well known rep for killing civilians, there was of course a possibility of dieing to break the illegal siege, and helping the people of Gaza. So the guy saying he is willing to die for that cause, is not the same as him saying he will engage in violence. So once again no proof of any intent of violence, just more smearing.

At the end of the day it was the IDF who engaged in violence and murder. No amount of obfuscation and smearing will change those facts.

No the guy was not just willing, he was wishing..

In footage captured on the Gaza flotilla, a passenger describes how he has attempted in previous convoys to become a martyr and that “with god’s luck” he will succeed on this flotilla.

Is wishing for martyrdom a common quality among peace campaigners these days? You all seem to think its quite normal to talk like this.. rather odd.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Is wishing for martyrdom a common quality among peace campaigners these days? You all seem to think its quite normal to talk like this.. rather odd.

Well I certainly think its wrong to send shock troops to intercept civilian ships in International Waters. You obviously think that's fine.

paulaa

bambooze wrote: »

No the guy was not just willing, he was wishing..

In footage captured on the Gaza flotilla, a passenger describes how he has attempted in previous convoys to become a martyr and that “with god’s luck” he will succeed on this flotilla.

Is wishing for martyrdom a common quality among peace campaigners these days? You all seem to think its quite normal to talk like this.. rather odd.

I find it quite odd that seemingly intelligent Israeli people and their followers speak about having a right to a land populated by others, based on a passage in a book purporting to give the words of an invisible being. And they do it with a straight face !!!

wes

bambooze wrote: »

No the guy was not just willing, he was wishing..


In footage captured on the Gaza flotilla, a passenger describes how he has attempted in previous convoys to become a martyr and that “with god’s luck” he will succeed on this flotilla.

Again, still no proof of violent intent, and also the guy was clearly engaged in a bit of bravado, considering he knew that the IDF are well known for murdering civilians.

bambooze wrote: »

Is wishing for martyrdom a common quality among peace campaigners these days? You all seem to think its quite normal to talk like this.. rather odd.

No, I wouldn't think so, but wanting to die for ones cause isn't unheard of, and again you have yet to provide any intent that he was going to engage in violence. So again more smearing and no evidence of intent to cause violence, just wanting to die for there cause, against a group well known for killing innocent civilians.

At the end of day, the IDF attacked a boat in International waters, and murdered a bunch of people. All the spin, obfuscation and smeaing in the world doesn't change that fact.

Ciaran500

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Keeping watch they appear to see the Israeli forces approach, so they go to the sides of their deck, and begin to wave their sticks and bars and so on.
Immediately one of those - to the right side of the video - ducks in a manner indicating to me he was fired upon by the invading forces.
This occurred BEFORE any of the invaders were within 'hitting distance' of the deadly weapons the defenders had at their disposal.

In view of this, it is my opinion that the Israeli forces came on board shooting at those on board, who had no means to shoot back.

The Israeli's borded with paintball guns to use as crowd control, how do you know they were not being shat at with these?

BluePlanet

Ciaran500 wrote: »

The Israeli's borded with paintball guns to use as crowd control, how do you know they were not being shat at with these?

Survivors of the massacre have said that Israel started shooting before the commandos landed on the deck.
They said people had already been shot dead.
Painball guns aren't ordinarily lethal.

While it is possible some of the commandos that landed carried Paintball guns, the ones in the boats were not those commandos.
Why do you presume that Israel would only bring paintball guns to attack a ship?

gandalf

Ciaran500 wrote: »

The Israeli's borded with paintball guns to use as crowd control, how do you know they were not being shat at with these?

Jesus I hope you made a typo there and your not saying the Israelis defecated on the protesters as well as International Law

BluePlanet

prinz wrote: »

What about the Israelis born and bred there?

They are called Palestinians.

Byron85

prinz wrote: »

What about the Israelis born and bred there?

What about the Palestinians who actually own the land that said Israelis have been born and bred on?

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

No the guy was not just willing, he was wishing..

In footage captured on the Gaza flotilla, a passenger describes how he has attempted in previous convoys to become a martyr and that “with god’s luck” he will succeed on this flotilla.

Is wishing for martyrdom a common quality among peace campaigners these days? You all seem to think its quite normal to talk like this.. rather odd.

The other aspect to this you're missing, dont get or avoiding is cultural. Damn near every Muslim Ive met, even some not so religious ones say "Inshallah" at the end of a lot of sentences. Its up there with Irish people saying "y'know" at the end of a lot of sentences. Its not "with gods luck" either. It's "God willing". EG "Sure we'll talk next week, God willing/I'm going home for a visit in June, god willing/Hope I get that job, god willing". Actually a lot of religious Irish people say similar too. Listen to a convo between two Muslims and you will hear Inshallah all the time.

prinz

BluePlanet wrote: »

They are called Palestinians.

:rolleyes:

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

What about the Palestinians who actually own the land that said Israelis have been born and bred on?

Accept reality and live in peace together.

Byron85

prinz wrote: »

:rolleyes:



Accept reality and live in peace together.

Reality = land that was stolen off them and continues to be stolen off them on a daily basis. I agree there does need to be peace, but not while and when Israel is trying to wipe the Palestinians off the map.

paulaa

prinz wrote: »

What about the Israelis born and bred there?

What about the Palestinians who have lived therefor centuries and who are being made refugees in the own land, in favour of Russian and European immigrants who had never set foot in the land before ?

wes

prinz wrote: »

Accept reality and live in peace together.

Sure in full agreement, but to get there, both sides need to be treated the same. As it stands the Palestinians are constanlty punished by the West for every single thing they do wrong, meanwhile Israel is free to violate various agreements, international law etc without consequence.

prinz

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Reality = land that was stolen off them and continues to be stolen off them on a daily basis.

...and settlers should be thrown off any land they try to colonise. That's a lot different though to expelling all Israelis.

paulaa wrote: »

What about the Palestinians who have lived therefor centuries and who are being made refugees in the own land, in favour of Russian and European immigrants who had never st foot in the land before ?

Do you realise that 20 odd % of Israelis are Arab/Palestinian? Living in Israel, working in Israel, prospering in Israel? Elected to parliament, playing for the national football team etc?

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

Religious basis for israels founding also have no bearing in this topic which is about a specific incident. Israel exists already.

Actually it does. There are religious fundamentalists in power in Israel. They believe the Torah justifies their actions and they are the sole rulers of Palestine. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying that George Bush's religious fundamentalism was irrelevant during his term as President.

wes

sparkles77 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

Another edited video from the IDF?!? I have 0 reason to trust a single thing from the IDF. There story doesn't check out, and there claims of weapons have been shown to be lies.