Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

arybvtcw0eolkf

gurramok wrote: »

Try being an Arab living in Israel.

Arabs living in Israel usually do so in peace and harmony with their neighbours, I think your thinking about Arabs living in the occupied territories and the Gaza who must enter Israel daily to work, attend hospital appointments etc..

They're the Arabs living in real hardship.

ghostdancer

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The spokesman for the Israeli Ministry for Defence said that there are official aid channels that the group could have used instead of going in directly. Is there a truth to this? If so, why didn't this group use those channels?



So in a way the flotilla was being provocative, in that they knew they were going to get a response. This kind of thing is hardly uncommon in this day in age, and is a notorious tactic of some groups for getting "positive" PR for themselves.

The issue really rests on whether those aboard the flotilla could have used the aforementioned aid channels.

Of course, it's always unfortunate when there are deaths, and the number does seem high.

considering the israeli government are proven liars, i'm not sure if there's any use believing what they say, without independent verification.

Nodin

SlabMurphy wrote: »

They should have said their was a gas leak on board the ships to keep the Israeli macho men away. They always get petrified looking when you mention the word gas.

As telling you to fuck off would possibly breach the charter, I've been forced to report your post.

arybvtcw0eolkf

alastair wrote: »

idiot.

Oh man, don't play into his hands by getting yourself banned!.

The report tool is your friend.

Nodin

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

But wasn't the point of the boarding to stop their imminent passage of the blockade, so that waiting until the next morning wasn't an option? It's a very confusing situation.

Unlikely. Besides, unless there was an a-bomb onboard, it could have waited.

Eliot Rosewater

ghostdancer wrote: »

considering the israeli government are proven liars, i'm not sure if there's any use believing what they say, without independent verification.

Exactly. I'm just trying to find out what's really going on. I'm disinclined to believe either side, tbh, preferring to form an opinion of my own after finding sufficient facts. The issue isn't as simple as some people have tried to portray it here.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The alternative was to let the ships into Gaza as they have no moral or legal right to prevent aid reaching the people there in the first place.

That's a separate issue, really. Of course the immediate rebuttal to it is that Israel have in interest in stopping arms being transported into Gaza.

Nijmegen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Isreal has what right to 'check' what the Palestinians import or recieve in aid?





Lets be very clear, are you alleging that there were weapons on board these aid ships?

Firstly, yes, Israel does, when some of what gets 'imported' to Gaza gets exported to Israel at supersonic speed.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting these ships were carrying weapons. But a blockade must be universal.

Di0genes

So far the arguments in defense of Israeli come down to

A) it wasn't an officially sanctioned convoy.

To which I ask. Who exactly should have officially sanctioned the convoy.

They were asking for trouble.

Israeli allows about a 15,000 tonnes of aid into Gaza a month. Thats about a 3rd of what it needs. I'm a little unclear about how you can argue that giving food and medicine to the sick and starving is a bad thing.

C) The protest convoy started it.

The convoy didn't shoot or board the Israeli ships, it happened the other way around. This nonsense about clubbing a guy over the head and then nicking his machine gun ergo they were asking for it. Sorry who exactly bordered who carrying guns in the first place.

If the Israelis wanted to search the ships to ensure there were no weapons or guns as part of the cargo, there were plenty of other easier and less confrontational ways of doing this.

Di0genes

Nijmegen wrote: »

But a blockade must be universal.

Um why?

prinz

Di0genes wrote: »

If the Israelis wanted to search the ships to ensure there were no weapons or guns as part of the cargo, there were plenty of other easier and less confrontational ways of doing this.

Which the Israelis offered and which the convoy leaders refused.

IrishTonyO

Nijmegen wrote: »

Firstly, yes, Israel does, when some of what gets 'imported' to Gaza gets exported to Israel at supersonic speed.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting these ships were carrying weapons. But a blockade must be universal.

The deputy prime minister of Israel is suggesting just that

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0531/newsspecial_av.html?2763072,null,230

Eliot Rosewater

Di0genes wrote: »

Sorry who exactly bordered who carrying guns in the first place.

Are you suggesting the Israeli's should have entered the ship trying to break through it's blockade and hoisting a Turkish flag without weapons?

You're trying to simplify the issue when no such thing can be done.

Di0genes wrote: »

If the Israelis wanted to search the ships to ensure there were no weapons or guns as part of the cargo, there were plenty of other easier and less confrontational ways of doing this.

Such as?

ghostdancer

Nijmegen wrote: »

Firstly, yes, Israel does, when some of what gets 'imported' to Gaza gets exported to Israel at supersonic speed.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting these ships were carrying weapons. But a blockade must be universal.

one, no it doesn't. whatever the uses.

two, if these ships had breached the blockade, you might have a point.
they were in international waters. using your logic, it would be fine to do this if the ships were just after setting sail from Galway on their way to Gaza.

Nijmegen

Di0genes wrote: »

Um why?

Because if you start allowing ships to transist directly to Gaza you will get weapons going in. They need to go in via Israel, until Hamas gives up on firing rockets into Israel.

Israel gets to do this because it is bigger than Hamas, and no arab state will lift a finger because the last time they all dogpiled Israel together they ended up wondering just how big Israel was going to get before their tanks stopped rolling.

That's realpolitik combined with the desire of the Israeli people to not have to get onto a bus wondering if it will blow up, or if a rocket will land on them.

Nijmegen

ghostdancer wrote: »

one, no it doesn't. whatever the uses.

two, if these ships had breached the blockade, you might have a point.
they were in international waters. using your logic, it would be fine to do this if the ships were just after setting sail from Galway on their way to Gaza.

A blockade can extend into international waters. Look, again, at Cuba for a great example.

ghostdancer

prinz wrote: »

Which the Israelis offered and which the convoy leaders refused.

which the israelis allegedly offered, according to themselves.

given that the israeli government has blatantly lied about many things in the past, and has changed it's version of todays events already, you'll have to forgive some of us for not believing a word out of their mouths.

IrishTonyO

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Are you suggesting the Israeli's should have entered the ship trying to break through it's blockade and hoisting a Turkish flag without weapons?

You're trying to simplify the issue when no such thing can be done.



Such as?

This was in International waters, and therefore Israel has no right to board any ship. It contravenes the UN charters.

wes

A pretty clear cut case of piracy in International waters by Israel, which also shows there whole, we left Gaza claims to be a complete lie. The brutal murder by the IDF, of innocent civilians, is of course a war crime.

The simple fact of the matter is that the flotilla, were well within there rights to go to Gaza. They did nothing illegal.

However, Israel blockade, and subsequent act of piracy in international waters, and then murder of unarmed civilians are all against international law, and in some case, they are war crimes.

Now, I am very surprised that the IDF did this, but then I really shouldn't be surprised by the murderous actions of the IDF considering the many other murderous outrages they have done, but this did surprise me nonetheless. Then there are the many lies coming from the Israeli spokes people once again, which is of course typical of Israel.

I think all EU nations need to expel there Israeli ambassadors, and immediately sanction Israel for this disgusting act of piracy and war crimes.

ghostdancer

Nijmegen wrote: »

A blockade can extend into international waters. Look, again, at Cuba for a great example.

a blockade can extend to the moon if it wants, it still doesn't justify the actions, or excuse them.
or make them even remotely legal.

SlabMurphy

Nodin wrote: »

As telling you to fuck off would possibly breach the charter, I've been forced to report your post.

Well I'll tell you one thing comrade, if I pick up some punters in my taxi this week and ask them where they are from and their from the Zionist state, telling them to f*** off out of my car will be the most polite words they'll get out of me :mad:

baldbear

The Israelis are saying a person on the boat grabbed a rifle off a soldier. Thats what started the violence. From the videos all i could see was afew people with mops and sticks throwing them around. Heavy handed over reaction is a big understatement here.
This is like the spin the British put out after bloody Sunday.

prinz

IrishTonyO wrote: »

This was in International waters, and therefore Israel has no right to board any ship. It contravenes the UN charters.

Firstly Israel is not a signatory of the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea.

Secondly a country has the legal right to act in international waters in some circumstances. It's called the protective principle.

halkar

Israel should have send their customs, inspect the goods and if they did not find what they looking for they should have escort the ships to Gaza and monitor the unloading of the ships. There was no need to play rambo here.

Was this really too difficult by Israeli standards?

Who won?
I don't know about Hamas other than that they won't be getting their much waited coffee this morning but Gaza and Gazans have won.

OhNoYouDidn't

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's a separate issue, really. Of course the immediate rebuttal to it is that Israel have in interest in stopping arms being transported into Gaza.

Its not a seperate issue. This convoy was verified by third parties such as the red cross to be carrying food and medicine only.

It was boarded and up to 20 people murdered in international waters.

The IDF made a bloody point last night that ANY attempt to lift the population of Gaza out of semi starvation would be met with fire.

It has been an appaling couple of months PR wise for the Israeli regieme and this further proves that the military are calling a lot of the shots and literally nothing is sacred.

OhNoYouDidn't

Nijmegen wrote: »

A blockade can extend into international waters. Look, again, at Cuba for a great example.

Which was also illegal...

Nijmegen

ghostdancer wrote: »

a blockade can extend to the moon if it wants, it still doesn't justify the actions, or excuse them.
or make them even remotely legal.

I don't think Israel really cares about legal where keeping up a blockade that prevents rockets landing on its territory is concerned. Neither was the US in blockading Cuba. Neither have most blockades in history.

If you were the leader of Israel you knew rockets and other weapons were being brought into Gaza, what might you do, pray tell?

The answer 'disband Israel and leave, because we never had a right to be there' doesn't count. The Israeli's had some serious debate with the arabs next door on the point, several times. They usually won.

arybvtcw0eolkf

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Well I'll tell you one thing comrade, if I pick up some punters in my taxi this week and ask them where they are from and their from the Zionist state, telling them to f*** off out of my car will be the most polite words they'll get out of me :mad:

Can I book you?.

Nijmegen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Which was also illegal...

Yes, it was! And look at us all, far the worse for it. If I could glow in the dark because the US didn't blockade cuba, think of all the things I could do.

gurramok

Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »

Arabs living in Israel usually do so in peace and harmony with their neighbours, I think your thinking about Arabs living in the occupied territories and the Gaza who must enter Israel daily to work, attend hospital appointments etc..

They're the Arabs living in real hardship.

LOL, comedy here?

Have a look at the truth. Israeli Arabs are 2nd class citizens in their own country.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8165338.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8164755.stm

OhNoYouDidn't

Nijmegen wrote: »

If you were the leader of Israel you knew rockets and other weapons were being brought into Gaza, what might you do, pray tell?

I can only imagine considering how they reacted when they knew food and medicine was being brought in last night....