Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Byron85

prinz wrote: »

...and settlers should be thrown off any land they try to colonise. That's a lot different though to expelling all Israelis.

True.

droidus

prinz wrote: »

:rolleyes:



Accept reality and live in peace together.

On the other hand, Israel could accept the numerous UN resolutions and the virtually unanimous international consensus (including the PLO and the Arab world and rejected by Israel and the US) that has been in place since the late 70's - that Israel withdraw from the occupied territories to the pre-1967 borders, remove the illegal settlements and provide compensation or the right to return for Palestinians ethnically cleansed in 1948.

Telling the Palestinians to 'accept reality' and 'live in peace' ignores the fundamental issue of justice at the core of this issue and makes a total mockery of the basic principles of international law.

prinz

wes wrote: »

Sure in full agreement, but to get there, both sides need to be treated the same. As it stands the Palestinians are constanlty punished by the West for every single thing they do wrong, meanwhile Israel is free to violate various agreements, international law etc without consequence.

Agreed. But the above can't apply when people question current day Isrealis right to live on that land.

wes

prinz wrote: »

Do you realise that 20 odd % of Israelis are Arab/Palestinian? Living in Israel, working in Israel, prospering in Israel? Elected to parliament, playing for the national football team etc?

You leave out the fact of there 2nd class status, denial of equal rights, and general discrimination etc, and here is what was said about the Israel mp aboards the floatilla to bring us on topic:

MK Regev tells Zoabi: Go to Gaza, traitor!

--SNIP--
A heated debate took place before the speeches as well. "Zoabi is party to a double crime – joining terrorists and a moral crime against the State of Israel," she said during a heated Knesset session Wednesday. "She must be punished. We don’t need Trojan horses in the Knesset." MK Miri Regev (Likud) even shouted at Zoabi in Arabic, "Go to Gaza, traitor."

"She (Zoabi) stood here over a year ago and pledged her allegiance to the State of Israel and its laws. My intention is not to harm freedom of speech – but in MK Zoabi's case – this isn’t freedom of speech. The sail to Gaza was a sail of terror. Zoabi must be punished. We don't need Trojan horses in the Knesset," Regev said.
--SNIP--

--SNIP--
Rightist lawmaker Moshe Mutz Matalon (Yisrael Beitenu) told Zoabi, "Nice work. In one day you've managed to accomplish what the treacherous people around you have been trying to do for years. Unfortunately, the (commando) fighters (who raided the aid flotilla) acted with too much restraint. They left only nine floating voters."
--SNIP--

mrboswell

bambooze wrote: »

Israel exists already.

Not according to my god - he says that the israelis should get off the land because he promised it to the Palestinians.

Sound familiar?

paulaa

prinz wrote: »

Agreed. But the above can't apply when people question current day Isrealis right to live on that land.

Prinz I don't think anyone here questions Israel's right to exist, as long as it's within it's own borders and the land theft and subjugation of the Palestinians stops .

bambooze

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Actually it does. There are religious fundamentalists in power in Israel. They believe the Torah justifies their actions and they are the sole rulers of Palestine. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying that George Bush's religious fundamentalism was irrelevant during his term as President.

There are religious nuts in power all over the world, why pick on israel which is in fact a mostly secular country?

sparkles77

wes wrote: »

Another edited video from the IDF?!? I have 0 reason to trust a single thing from the IDF. There story doesn't check out, and there claims of weapons have been shown to be lies.

yet you have no problem believing a bunch of people from a Turkish flag flying ship who declared their intention to break a military blockade in order to avoid declaring their cargo

The other 5 ships complied so why not this one.

wes

prinz wrote: »

Agreed. But the above can't apply when people question current day Isrealis right to live on that land.

Yeah, actually it can apply, even with people asking those questions. As is stand 1 side is being punished and the other isn't, and people asking question does not effect this in anyway imho.

the_syco

Her'e my warped views on this...

gandalf wrote: »

Why carry out this operation in International Waters?

Would like to know this myself. The only reason I can think of is a "f**k you" to the international community, otherwise they could've waited until the ship was not in international waters.

gandalf wrote: »

Why carry out this operation at night when the risks were higher for the personel assaulting the ships?

Not sure, but how close to land would the ship have been if they had waited until light?

gandalf wrote: »

Why use military tactics against a purely civilian humanitarian fleet?

Why use troops from Shayetet 13 the unit that specializes in sea-to-land incursions, assassinations, counter-terrorism, sabotage and have been involved in the past in killing members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades on an operation against a purely civilian humanitarian fleet?

Only reason I can think of is that the military has trained for this sort of situation. I'm unsure why they used paintball guns, though. If they had landed on the ship with real guns, I'd say there may have been less killed.

Breaking into someones house with a paintball gun is a bad idea, as you'll get attacked, seperated, and then resort to violence to regain control. Go in with a real gun, and people will see that it's a bad idea to attack you, and if one person was shot in the first few minutes, I'd say there'd be more of a chance that the morale would collapse, as opposed to morale boost of winning the attack on the attackers?

gandalf wrote: »

Were the soldiers primed by telling them that 75% of the people on board were terrorists?

If they were told this, I doubt that they would've gone in using paintball guns.

Wibbs

prinz wrote: »

Accept reality and live in peace together.

Like has been said, the reality is that one sides land owned and worked for generations has been taken from them, often violently since 1967. I say 1967 because that's when the last UN backed borderlines were settled upon. I mean how many times do people need to see the map of the proportions of land occupied by both sides. Do you really think that if the Palestinians had chilled out that more extremist settlers wouldnt have continued the land grab? I mean seriously? Or that if the Israeli's had chilled out the Palestinians wouldn't have kept up the madness? Both sides use the other to further their own gains. Both want and need the boogieman. IMHO both do, but I genuinely belive the Israelis have been worse in this. Their record of following UN backed resolutions is absolutely dire. They are by far the worst offenders in this since the end of WW2.No contest. Iran/Iraq/Nth Korea et al are in the twopenny hapenny place. That much is fact. No conjecture or wriggle room. So if you were a group dealing with a another group like that would you trust any promises they made on the back of that history? You would be mad to.

wes

sparkles77 wrote: »

yet you have no problem believing a bunch of people from a Turkish flag flying ship who declared their intention to break a military blockade in order to avoid declaring their cargo

The blockade is illegal, and morally wrong. Also, I would trust anyone above the IDF, who are well known murdered of civilians any day of the week. Also a edited video proves nothing.

sparkles77 wrote: »

The other 5 ships complied so why not this one.

The IDF attacked the first boat, and killed a bunch of people. That more than answers that.

bambooze

mrboswell wrote: »

Not according to my god - he says that the israelis shout get off the land because he promised it to the Palestinians.

Sound familiar?

Not really the point.. it already exists, it has the army to defend itself, it is a UN member. Too late to change that now short of a major war to eradicate it in the usual way countries are created or redefined.

mrboswell

bambooze wrote: »

Not really the point.. it already exists, it has the army to defend itself, it is a UN member. Too late to change that now short of a major war to eradicate it in the usual way countries are created or redefined.

True it exists and is backed up by the US, but wrongly on both counts.

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

There are religious nuts in power all over the world, why pick on israel which is in fact a mostly secular country?

Because it is used by many in power to justify their position. If we were talking about America, Poland, Iran etc i'd say the same. The topic at hand and all that.

Wibbs

prinz wrote: »

...and settlers should be thrown off any land they try to colonise. That's a lot different though to expelling all Israelis.

+1000. I am not suggesting expelling all Israelis. Not even close. I am suggesting removing these settlers, a large proportion of which are opportunistic types from the US, Russia and other places coming in after all the hard work has been done, claiming gods chosen people status and basically theiving land. They follow their gods law only when it suits them it seems. They forget "Thou shall not steal and thou shall not covet your neighbor’s house".

alastair

bambooze wrote: »

The vid is quite clear, and if not a peace activist, what was he doing on the ship?

No-one that I'm aware of (except those who would like to demonise the passengers) has claimed that this flotilla was about peace activism. There are groups involved who are indeed peace activists, and those who are humanitarian activists, and those who are pro-Palestinian activists.

The publically stated intent of the flotilla is as follows:

We want to break the siege of Gaza. We want to raise international awareness about the prison-like closure of the Gaza Strip and pressure the international community to review its sanctions policy and end its support for continued Israeli occupation. We want to uphold Palestine's right to welcome internationals as visitors, human rights observers, humanitarian aid workers, journalists, or otherwise.

There's all shades of people signed up to that principle involved. Some have no problem with active self-defence in the context of the IDF invasion outside their juristiction. No doubt some would have the same attitude inside Gazan waters. Everyone agreed to a non-agressive strategy in the flotilla. Indeed they agreed to a principle of non-violent resistance (which has nothing to do with peace activism) - and some clearly fell down in that regard, but a few catapults is pretty tepid stuff if you want to paint them as (God help us) 'Jihadists'.

sceptre

On-topic folks. Not optional, mandatory. Topic title is a strong hint as usual. Chop chop please. Some stuff deleted accordingly.

/mod

Fuhrer

bambooze wrote: »

Are you not a "she" I just assumed "paulaa" was "paula a"..

Anyway, I never justified israels existence based on the bible, I am athiest anyway. Fact is israel exists and thats not likely to change. It is the only country in the world for jews, religious or secular is irrelevant to that fact.. they deserve a nation and they have it. Hard won through many wars but as were most nations on this planet today.

And Palestine is the only country for Palestinians...



Because one of them had been gifted more guns then than the other they have carte blanche?

Byron85

The "smoking gun"?

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, who reported from the ship before the raid, was also sent to Turkey after being released by the Israelis.
He said that he witnessed some of the killings, and confirmed that at least "one person was shot through the top of the head from [the helicopter] above. Our correspondent was on the top deck when the ship was attacked and said that within a few minutes of seeing the Israeli helicopters, there were shots being fired from above. Activists killed

Turkish victims
Ibrahim Bilgen
Ali Haydar Bengi
Cevdet Kiliçlar
Çetin Topçuoglu
Necdet Yildirim
Fahri Yaldiz
Cengiz Songür
Cengiz Akyüz
US victim
Furkan Dogan

"The first shots [coming from Israeli boats at sea] were tear gas, sounds grenades and rubber coated steel bullets. Live shots came five minutes after that. There was definetly live fire from the air and from the sea as well."

prinz

droidus wrote: »

Telling the Palestinians to 'accept reality' and 'live in peace' ignores the fundamental issue of justice at the core of this issue and makes a total mockery of the basic principles of international law.

Actually that wasn't aimed at Palestinians. more the people who come along here and question Israelis rights to be there. The Israelis equally have to accept reality and live in peace. They are both as bad as each other.

paulaa wrote: »

Prinz I don't think anyone here questions Israel's right to exist, as long as it's within it's own borders and the land theft and subjugation of the Palestinians stops .

How does that compare with you claiming their right to exist etc is based on an invisible God and 2000 year old book? Surely that was an attempt to queswtion Israel's right to exist no?

wes wrote: »

Yeah, actually it can apply, even with people asking those questions. As is stand 1 side is being punished and the other isn't, and people asking question does not effect this in anyway imho.

I'd say the people living in constant fear of mortar and rocket attacks may think differently about not being 'punished'.

Wibbs wrote: »

Do you really think that if the Palestinians had chilled out that more extremist settlers wouldnt have continued the land grab? I mean seriously? Or that if the Israeli's had chilled out the Palestinians wouldn't have kept up the madness?

That's exactly the issue. But for too often the "Palestinian madness" is over looked, as is the situation Israel has faced over the decades from neighbouring countries. They are both as bad as each other but far, far too often a simplified picture is presented with only one sad always the bad. Is a little bit of balance too much to ask?

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Anyway, I never justified israels existence based on the bible, I am athiest anyway. Fact is israel exists and thats not likely to change. It is the only country in the world for jews, religious or secular is irrelevant to that fact.. they deserve a nation and they have it. Hard won through many wars but as were most nations on this planet today.

I wouldn't question Israels right to exist at all. I am glad it exists and I do want to visit it some day (not soon as my finances are going to be donated to my first born in the next couple of weeks!!! LOL).

I have some Jewish friends and they are good people. I despair that these people are being represented by a Hawkish Government that sometimes seems to border on dehumanising a whole section of their society or a society that they have some responsibility for.

What worries me about this is that this Government/Country was borne out of what happens when you allow people to be dehumanised.

When you label whole peoples as "terrorists" or "animals" say they all "hate" you are going down that road. Its a very dangerous road because eventually you no longer see them as people.

droidus

Anyway, I never justified israels existence based on the bible, I am athiest anyway. Fact is israel exists and thats not likely to change. It is the only country in the world for jews, religious or secular is irrelevant to that fact.. they deserve a nation and they have it. Hard won through many wars but as were most nations on this planet today.

Unfortunately for Israel, the '67 war came after the Universal deceleration of Human rights, the Geneva convention and the UN framework of international law, particularly 242 which declares the:

"inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"

Specifically in relation to the occupied territories.

Fuhrer

prinz wrote: »

I'd say the people living in constant fear of mortar and rocket attacks may think differently about not being 'punished'.

I dont follow this point

BluePlanet

Another inconsistancy with Israel's position regarding the aid flotilla.

If Israel geniunely believes it has legal authority to board and commandeer those ships, and that the crew's actions to defend those ships was illegal (assaulting IDF), then where are the charges being filed?

Why aren't we hearing about crew members being charged with a crime?

prinz

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000. I am not suggesting expelling all Israelis. Not even close. I am suggesting removing these settlers, a large proportion of which are opportunistic types from the US, Russia and other places coming in after all the hard work has been done, claiming gods chosen people status and basically theiving land. They follow their gods law only when it suits them it seems. They forget "Thou shall not steal and thou shall not covet your neighbor’s house".

...and these freaks are despised by plenty of Israelis too.

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The "smoking gun"?

Not quite. Any idea who inserted the words in brackets?

bambooze

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

The "smoking gun"?

Proof? Turkey has all the bodies, have they said any were shot through the top of the head? I'd have thought they'd waste no time on that if it was true.

Besides which it can't be too easy shooting from a moving helicopter at night to a possibly moving person on a moving ship and score such a direct hit.. perhaps someone with military experience here can comment on that.

alastair

sparkles77 wrote: »

yet you have no problem believing a bunch of people from a Turkish flag flying ship who declared their intention to break a military blockade in order to avoid declaring their cargo

The other 5 ships complied so why not this one.

They did declare their cargo, and made it available for inspection - to the Red Cross iirc. They don't want to give it to the Israelis, because the Israelis are the party imposing the (illegal) blockade in the first place. Why would you expect them to?

The other 5 ships decided not to try and stop the illegal boarding, but that doesn't imply those who did were doing anything wrong. Maybe they just saw the results of resistance?

Wibbs

Oh balance is defo needed. Like I said elsewhere, by virtue of my upbringing I've been more pro Israel than anti. Way more TBH. When the oul PLO were equated with IRA among some in the 70's I was decidedly dubious. That said even from that viewpoint, successive Israeli governments have made me feel so much more sympathy for the Palestinians than I would have in the past.

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

Proof? Turkey has all the bodies, have they said any were shot through the top of the head? I'd have thought they'd waste no time on that if it was true.

Besides which it can't be too easy shooting from a moving helicopter at night to a possibly moving person on a moving ship and score such a direct hit.. perhaps someone with military experience here can comment on that.

They only received the bodies back from Israel earlier today so there is no evidence as yet, only statements. Hence, my usage of the brackets/quotes. This is the third time i've read about some of the victims being shot in the head but as I said, only statements thus far. No photographic evidence etc.