Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

israel doesnt just make people disappear, there is no logic to it.

*Israel accused of murder
*They deny it all including their president saying that it was self defence.
*Evidence that proves they are guilty
*They destroy evidence that would damage their country and their president.

Can you tell me what's not logical about that?

bambooze

paulaa wrote: »

I didn't say they did but I wouldn't be surprised.

I would think the organisers would know how many people were on their boats and how many were being repatriated.

Were there not multiple organizations involved? On multiple ships? Is there a master list? And I ask again was this an official statement based on actual records or just some people repeating a rumour?

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

*Israel accused of murder
*They deny it all including their president saying that it was self defence.
*Evidence that proves they are guilty
*They destroy evidence that would damage their country and their president.

Can you tell me what's not logical about that?

Its not a movie.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

I'd be surprised if any two people involved gave the same account.. they weren't spectators in a football stadium.

I'd agree with this but not one has confirmed Israel's report of events. Do you not find this strange. Do you honestly believe everybody on the ships are lying?

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

Its not a movie.

But you seem to love movies, especially youtube ones

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

Its not a movie.

what kind of response is that? Where have I claimed it's a movie??

droidus

bambooze wrote: »

Coz despite what some here like to believe, israel doesnt just make people disappear, there is no logic to it.

lol.

Israel's 'Disappeared'

The Israeli police ask the courts for a gag order about 100 times a year. Not many countries claiming to be democracies 'disappear' their own citizens and deny them due process, notes Nadia Hijab

At first it seemed bizarre. Israel slapped a blanket gag order to prevent media coverage of the May 6 arrest of Ameer Makhoul, a prominent Palestinian citizen of Israel who heads Ittijah, a coalition of 64 major civil society organizations. Yet in no time at all the news had shot round the world, and Facebook pages were up calling for his freedom and for a demonstration in Haifa to demand his release.

So is there a point to such gag orders? It turns out there is. Unlike Makhoul’s case, the news about some arrestees remains unknown for weeks. As people mobilized for Makhoul, reports began to surface about another Palestinian citizen of Israel, Omar Said, who was arrested on April 25 on his way to Jordan.

Said holds a PhD from Israel’s Technion, and his innovative work at the Antaki Center for Herbal Medicine was featured in Haaretz in 2007. Legal sources affirmed that there was also a gag order against media coverage of his case and that, like Makhoul, he has not yet been allowed to see a lawyer.



Then of course there is the now famous case of Anat Kamm, the journalist who was held secretly under house arrest for more than three months earlier this year, accused of having leaked Israeli military documents concerning the premeditated killing of Palestinians in the occupied territories.




How many more are there? So wonders Didi Remez, an Israeli Jewish human rights advocate who blogs at Coteret. How many indeed? As Remez notes, Makhoul’s prominence may now draw attention to a much more widespread phenomenon. Writing about the Kamm case, The Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli police ask the courts for a gag order about 100 times a year.

Although Israel on Monday lifted the gag orders against both Makhoul and Said, the question of “how many more” is now posed with urgency, given the Israeli state’s growing crackdown on its citizens -- crackdowns that are enthusiastically supported by the settler movement as it remorselessly colonizes Palestinian land.

The Israeli Palestinian community is clearly at risk. Israel has now accused Makhoul and Said of spying for Hizbullah -- similar accusations drove former Knesset member and community leader Azmi Bishara into self-imposed exile to avoid ending up in prison. Still. the community is determined to stand its ground. "We won't be silent," Ynet quoted Adalah, the legal center for Arab minority rights, and others as saying, but will struggle against “the 'legal' persecution by the Israeli government against the Arab sector."




But Jewish human rights advocates are at risk too. Israeli rightwing groups have targeted both Naomi Chazan, head of the New Israel Fund, along with Adalah in the same billboard campaign.




One outcome of the crackdown may be growing Israeli Palestinian and Jewish collaboration in defence of basic rights and freedoms: Adalah and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel together protested the Makhoul gag order to the Supreme Court. As Moshe Yaroni wrote in Zeek, a progressive American Jewish online magazine, “The erosion of rights is a dynamic that threatens every Israeli,” And, he predicted, “Israel is moving toward a very frightening future; a future where most Jews will no longer be able to support Israel.”



Frightening is the word that best describes the state of a person completely cut off from his world, without recourse or rights. The soft-spoken, steel-willed Makhoul has played a major role in defending Palestinian rights and identity in Israel -- indeed, Ittijah’s member groups have doubled over the past few years. Makhoul’s dedication has now landed him in jail. His wife, feminist scholar Janan Abdu, writes bravely on her Facebook page, “No prison in the world can absorb a whole nation.” But the family must be frantic with worry -- as must other community activists. Who will be next?



Not many countries claiming to be democracies “disappear” their own citizens and deny them due process. Ironically the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sets democracy as a condition of membership, just welcomed Israel into its midst. By so doing, the OECD sent a terrible signal that state power trumps human rights. Further, by not holding Israel accountable for its ongoing violations in the occupied Palestinian territories, its member states risk rendering themselves complicit in its crimes.

Ever since its attack on Gaza in 2008-2009, Israel has mounted a major public relations campaign to counter popular outrage and the growing boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement calling on it to uphold international law. It accuses its critics of anti-Semitism -- even the fast-growing Jewish communities working for equality and justice. Wouldn’t it be easier to admit that maybe, just maybe, Israel is doing something wrong? And that until it respects equality, justice and freedom at home and abroad, it will not secure the legitimacy it craves?



Nadia Hijab is an independent analyst and a senior fellow at the Institute for Palestine Studies.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/ENGLISH/opinion/?id=38920

RonMexico

It will be interesting to see if Brian Cowen will stick to his words after Fiacha O' Luain was assaulted by Israeli security personel whilst trying to get a flight out of the country.

The Department of Foreign Affairs has requested a medical report from Turkish doctors who treated him for injuries to his body after the assault.

Dar

bambooze wrote: »

Its not a movie.

Indeed, but assaulting a merchant ship in the dead of night with armed commandos sounds more like the script of a bad Steven Seagal movie than the actions of a responsible government.

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

I'd agree with this but not one has confirmed Israel's report of events. Do you not find this strange. Do you honestly believe everybody on the ships are lying?

So far I've seen a handful of reports by people on board and video evidence conflicts what some of those said (even al jazeera showed that).. its certainly possible that some would fib, particularly those wielding the clubs. But the rest of the 600 or more.. their stories are still untold.

Byron85

RonMexico wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if Brian Cowen will stick to his words after Fiacha O' Luain was assaulted by Israeli security personel whilst trying to get a flight out of the country.

The Department of Foreign Affairs has requested a medical report from Turkish doctors who treated him for injuries to his body after the assault.

On a related topic to this:

The family of Libyan-born Irish citizen Al Mahdi Al Harati say that he called them from Turkish hospital in the early hours of this morning.
It was the first time they had heard from him since he was detained by the Israeli authorities.
Housam Najjair, his brother-in-law, said that Mr Harati is being treated in the intensive care unit of Ankara's Ataturk Hospital, after being beaten in the head and groin while in Israeli custody.

We'll see if Mr. Cowen actually will stick by his words. In fairness, Micheal Martin seems rather ticked off as it is.

bambooze

gandalf wrote: »

But you seem to love movies, especially youtube ones

They are documentaries

bambooze

droidus wrote: »

lol.

Imposing a media blackout on an ongoing investigation into espionage is not the same as making people disappear. One of those mentioned in your quote was under house arrest ffs and the other was arrested in front of his family so I think they did actually notice that israel arrested him and he is now being charged.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

So far I've seen a handful of reports by people on board and video evidence conflicts what some of those said (even al jazeera showed that).. its certainly possible that some would fib, particularly those wielding the clubs. But the rest of the 600 or more.. their stories are still untold.

I'd accept that yes some of those on boats may/might lie but do you really believe they are all lying??

Also we don't have the full video evidence. Only the video released by the IDF. Why is the evidence that would prove they acted in self defence not released? You don't find it strange that evidence that would prove their innocence is being withheld?

paulaa

bambooze wrote: »

Were there not multiple organizations involved? On multiple ships? Is there a master list? And I ask again was this an official statement based on actual records or just some people repeating a rumour?

Yes there were many organisations involved from over 40 countries and it was all pulled together by an organising committee . That committee were giving the details. Unless they were totally incompetent they would have a list of all participants .

You'll be pleased to know that another flotilla of ships is already receiving funding and are looking for people who want to go with them.

http://savegaza.eu/eng/index.php?id=433

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

So far I've seen a handful of reports by people on board and video evidence conflicts what some of those said (even al jazeera showed that).. its certainly possible that some would fib, particularly those wielding the clubs. But the rest of the 600 or more.. their stories are still untold.

not all of the 600 stories are untold, One irish Citizen Shane Dillon arrived home yesterday, his story has been told and may other on TV already. And they all contradict the Israeli version

bambooze

doncarlos wrote: »

I'd accept that yes some of those on boats may/might lie but do you really believe they are all lying??

Also we don't have the full video evidence. Only the video released by the IDF. Why is the evidence that would prove they acted in self defence not released? You don't find it strange that evidence that would prove their innocence is being withheld?

I didnt say I believe they all are, I'd be interested to see the other 600 stories when they come out.

I was referring to vids which show the brutal gang beatings with clubs and knives etc when some witnesses said things like "nobody had any weapons" or "everyone was peaceful" or the one I found amusing "I only saw two and a half sticks!" - how big is half a stick?!

sceptre

bambooze wrote: »

or the one I found amusing "I only saw two and a half sticks!" - how big is half a stick?!

Presumably the person who said that was Irish...:)

edit: actually it was Norman Paech, German former member of the Bundestag.

doncarlos

bambooze wrote: »

I didnt say I believe they all are,

But you believe all those interviewed so far are liars?

bambooze wrote: »

I'd be interested to see the other 600 stories when they come out.

I'd be interested in seeing the unedited video that would prove Israel's innocence but I think i'll be waiting a long to to see that.

karma_

bambooze wrote: »

"I only saw two and a half sticks!" - how big is half a stick?!

That may be a mistranslation and he could be referring to the size of the sticks used.

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

I didnt say I believe they all are, I'd be interested to see the other 600 stories when they come out.

I was referring to vids which show the brutal gang beatings with clubs and knives etc when some witnesses said things like "nobody had any weapons" or "everyone was peaceful" or the one I found amusing "I only saw two and a half sticks!" - how big is half a stick?!

there were 6 ships of course they are different stories about what happened during the storming, as there we 6 separate incidents. Have to say I am unemployed at the moment, and not funds rich but after this I will be making my first donation to this cause

paulaa

doncarlos wrote: »

But you believe all those interviewed so far are liars?

I'd be interested in seeing the unedited video that would prove Israel's innocence but I think i'll be waiting a long to to see that.

I think you will as they have confiscated cameras and footage that belongs to the reporters who were on board.

BluePlanet

Actually that raises another issue.
Do those person's with recording equipment get them back?

Or is Israel claiming the legal authority to confiscate possessions of persons in International waters?

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

I didnt say I believe they all are, I'd be interested to see the other 600 stories when they come out.

I was referring to vids which show the brutal gang beatings with clubs and knives etc when some witnesses said things like "nobody had any weapons" or "everyone was peaceful" or the one I found amusing "I only saw two and a half sticks!" - how big is half a stick?!

On the videos I have seen there are sticks being used and what appear to be metal bars from railing on the deck. But I have seen no video evidence of knives being used. I've seen the video evidence of the "sophisticated" arms cache laid out on the decks (I assume its the deck anyway) in one of the after incident youtube videos released by the IDF.

As others have said I would expect people to grab what's on hand to repel boarders.

For example the lads on that Libyan ship that repelled Somali pirates yesterday were hailed as heroes.

gandalf

sceptre wrote: »

Presumably the person who said that was Irish...:)

edit: actually it was Norman Paech, former German member of the Bundestag.

I would have expected him to say 2,5 sticks then

Memnoch

Here is an interview with a journalist who saw everything as it happened.

http://vodpod.com/watch/3760407-interview-with-al-jazeeras-jamal-elshayyal-one-of-the-passengers-on-the-mavi-marmara

There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck.

These reports seem to contradict Israeli claims that their commandos ONLY used live ammunition after being set upon by the protesters and that they only had paint ball guns to begin with.
http://vodpod.com/watch/3760407-i...he-passengers-on-the-mavi-marmara

Interview starts about 45 seconds into the video. Interesting points at 2 minutes in and then 3:20 minutes in he talks about the sequence of what happened and who did what first. Around 5 minutes in he talks about how the Israelis left three critically injured people untreated for 3 hours despite repeated requests and allowed them to die.

TBH this doesn't surprise me in the least, because the video realised by the IDF showed the commandos boarding but not what had happened before that.

Is it any surprise that the people in the ship tried to fight off the commandos after they had seen their fellow passengers shot and killed from above?

I'm also now highly skeptical that this was simply a botched operation and am now beginning to wonder if there is any truth to the theory that the Israelis intentionally killed people in order to scare of further humanitarian efforts to bring aid to gaza.

It's also not surprising that the Israelis held these people for 3 days so that they could put their own spin on events without correction from those who were there.

paulaa

BluePlanet wrote: »

Actually that raises another issue.
Do those person's with recording equipment get them back?

Or is Israel claiming the legal authority to confiscate possessions of persons in International waters?

I don't know. They can do whatever the like you know :rolleyes:

droidus

bambooze wrote: »

Imposing a media blackout on an ongoing investigation into espionage is not the same as making people disappear. One of those mentioned in your quote was under house arrest ffs and the other was arrested in front of his family so I think they did actually notice that israel arrested him and he is now being charged.

And many others simply disappear and the army/courts refuse to confirm or deny that they are being held. The fact is, we don't know how many Palestinians are being held unlawfully for this very reason.

Then there's Israeli snatch squads who have traditionally worked in the occupied territories and abroad. Israeli backed SLA militia in Lebanon responsible for the 'disappearance' and probable torture and execution of thousands in Khaim prison... the list goes on and on.

I'm not saying that anyone has been 'disappeared' this time, but assuming that Israel does not do this kind of thing is incredibly naive.

Ben Hadad

Does the footage released by the Isreali govenrment remind people of the type of footage people bring up when they say they have proof of UFOs?

I'm refering to the constantly moving camera, which in this case is quite unnatural, and kind of weird picture quality. Also some of the actual footage just seems a bit weird to me. Something I just can't put my finger on.

Can anyone with camera experience explain what type of camera they may have been using and the cause of these types of effects?

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

What about the Palestinians who have lived therefor centuries and who are being made refugees in the own land, in favour of Russian and European immigrants who had never set foot in the land before ?

Thats a strawman argument. For instance what about the germans kicked out of Konigsberg, East Prussia and Silesia by the Russians and Poles after world war 2, do they have a right of return?