Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

Deep Easterly

Foxtrol wrote: »

You know full well that the phrase "Israeli Apologist" is a loaded phrase that distorts the views of those who were on the show.

I only thought it would be fair that the full panel were tarred with misleading terms that you had only chosen to use on those who you didn't agree with.

Yes, but did you watch the show? Did you notice how the Isreali apologists kept shouting over the Sinn Fein representative ever time he spoke? Did you hear them shouting how he was a terroist sympathiser while he was trying to get his point across?

the_syco

Dar wrote: »

Indeed, but assaulting a merchant ship in the dead of night with armed commandos sounds more like the script of a bad Steven Seagal movie than the actions of a responsible government.

I find that to be rather insulting. Segals movies aren't that bad :P

=-=

News was saying that the Aid Flotilla are going to go back. How will Israel stop them the second time?

Foxtrol

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Yes, but did you watch the show? Did you notice how the Isreali apologists kept shouting over the Sinn Fein representative ever time he spoke? Did you hear them shouting how he was a terroist sympathiser while he was trying to get his point across?

Yes I did watch it. I didnt agree with the guy from ucd's discussion technique at all.

You're using the term "Israeli apologist" which totally demeans the valid points that both pro-Israeli (for lack of a better term) panel members were saying and to show balance is why I used the phrases of terrorist affiliate and terrorist apologist to describe the other members of the panel. If you're going to belittle a panel you might as well belittle the whole bunch of them rather than just the ones you disagree with.

Actually how is calling them "Israeli Apologists" any better than the phrase "terrorist sympatiser" which you disagree so strongly with?

Clawdeeus

Apparantly on alot of the ships they HAD disabled the rudders before boarding. Just so people know that it can be done easily enough.

Clawdeeus

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/cs this guy goes on a good rant about the entire incident. Probably the best coverage/ analysis Ive heard so far.

Lou.m

Well i have read a lot here.

And i have heard pro Israeli this and Hamas apologist that....

Here is my view....

I am Pro Irish.....a proud Irish citizen...

And as far as i am concerned a foreign country has made threats against a peaceful ship of aid that is of my country...


They have made threats against an IRISH vessel....sorry to get all clannish...

But that to me is different ....yes its hypocritical....for me to care more about my own nationality and threats made to Irish vessels...but there you go...

As an Irish person....i know exactly what side i am on...the Irish one...

And in this particular case i make no apologies for that

Israel has behaved disgustingly toward Toward the Irish nation in this.

Its a profound insult.

Israel and Palestine are both hugely guilty of gross crimes....there is really nothing to defend on either side.....who is the lowest...???

Well they are both pretty low....

You can't ascertain who is most guilty because its like trying to find the nice guy between two murderers....

You can't support either side or cause with a clear conscience in that conflict ....

But i do believe in this particular case Israel has come into conflict with a vessel from my own country and i do believe that the intentions coming from my country are pure and genuine and could be competently carried out.

Trying to work out who is more insane between those who can with a clear conscience say they support Israel or Palestine or Sein fein ( how did they get in there??) does not make sense to me

Its like asking so do you wanna support really bad guy no1 or really bad guy no2 ....

Both Israel and Hamas should have no support for their actions and the way they carry out their causes

Neither of them have any honour.

However Suggesting this Irish vessel is intentionally supporting terrorism on the Israeli side is ridiculous. I am sorry...

I am not pro flotilla...i am however VERY PRO IRISH...and thats the side i am on....

And i am pretty annoyed at the Israeli behaviour diplomatically and politically

So yes i am bias ...i have an extreme Irish bias...which is quite natural and proper


Feel free to have an Israeli or whatever bias if you are Israeli...

Israel has pissed me off...i am sure Ireland has pissed Israelis off judging from public sentiment over there we are not their favourite country right now.

I feel looking at the situation i am biased ...but not unreasonably so..i am on the Irish side ...but not to the point of irrationality or injustice


So to those who say it is bias to support the vessel or feel offended simply because it is Irish ....well yes ...but thats not always a bad thing.....bias toward your country is only really a bad thing in cases of extreme injustice


In this case the intentions of those on the Irish vessel i believe are pure.

And i do believe the intentions of the Irish taoiseach when he calls for her safe passage are also pure..

And i am sorry but i just dont understand the Israeli sides actions or attitude as being in anyway acceptable or understandable

Maybe thats because i am not Israeli...which is a fair point ..i am not Israeli...i am Irish...and yes i would have a tendency to see things from that point of view.

To be honest its true ....i am more offended simply because it is an Irish vessel....and the Israeli behaviour towards it...

I hope all return safely...but in particular i hope all Irish return safely...and whilst i have nothing against Israelis...as an Irish person i have a huge problem with Israeli officials and how dare they.


And yep its a pretty one sided view for me to have. But i dont believe its a blind sided one.


I am tired of people saying one must be objective ..objectivity is not always fair or just ....it is simply a tool to get to a fair judgement of the truth...once you get there to that judgement you must be partisan to justice and biased.

I do not support an Israeli cause or a Palestinian one...
But the fact that another country has behaved in this way towards an Irish vessel does does anger me in a rather biased way.

Israeli diplomacy leaves a lot to be desired.

Eibhin70

As a proud Irishwoman, I would hope that my fellow countrymen would apply common sense while abroad....whether they are right or wrong. You woulldn't catch me walking down a Tehran street in a bikini for example.

That's not always the case though...and we have had our fair share of eejits trying to make a point.....

bambooze

Lou.m wrote: »

And as far as i am concerned a foreign country has made threats against a peaceful ship of aid that is of my country...

They have made threats against an IRISH vessel....sorry to get all clannish...

What threats? They've been told they can't enter gaza.. that's not an explicit threat, just a statement of fact. If they still try to force their way in then of course Israel will have to stop them.

Hopefully those on board wont do anything stupid.

bambooze

gandalf wrote: »

I was just irked that the person that posted that link only bothered to post a comment of "interesting" as their input on it.

The reference to investigations into incidents with far greater loss of life, involving other military forces yet no such global outrage or demands for international investigations is quite a valid point which his alleged bias does not change.

Here is the bit I refer to..

“Look at what appears to have been a very serious military error made by the German army in Northern Afghanistan last year when something like 50-150 civilians were killed in an air strike,” he said.

“Where was the independent inquiry about that? Where were the calls for an independent inquiry about that? Why is it that Israel is subjected to that kind of call when other democratic countries aren’t?”

I still find that interesting.

bambooze

IrishTonyO wrote: »

(Reuters) - Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal has stated explicitly that the Palestinian Islamist group will end its armed struggle against Israel if the Jewish state withdraws from Palestinian land it occupied in the 1967 Middle East War.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE64T2AI20100530

He speaks with forked tongue.

Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel, has long maintained that it will enter into a long-term truce if Israel pulls out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and agrees to a right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees.
..
its 1988 founding charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state in all of pre-1948 British-mandate Palestine.

paulaa

bambooze wrote: »

What threats? They've been told they can't enter gaza.. that's not an explicit threat, just a statement of fact. If they still try to force their way in then of course Israel will have to stop them.

Hopefully those on board wont do anything stupid.

These threats of even more extreme violence against the humanitarian aid ships

'Next time we'll use more force'

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

bambooze

weepee wrote: »

Israel has always ignored The United Nations, laughed at International Law, and will continue to do so

Meanwhile Hamas does what exactly?

Nodin

Foxtrol wrote: »

You know full well that the phrase "Israeli Apologist" is a loaded phrase that distorts the views of those who were on the show.

I only thought it would be fair that the full panel were tarred with misleading terms that you had only chosen to use on those who you didn't agree with.

As one individual seemed to be put off the show for shouting over others, and the second belongs to an organisation called 'Friends of Israel', his initial description was not inaccurate. Indeed the last time I saw that that gentleman who departed early in a similar format, he was screaming abuse at Robert Fisk and implying that Fisk had made the 'blood libel' against the Jews.

Nodin

bambooze wrote: »

Meanwhile Hamas does what exactly?

Allowing that that statement is true, you then concede that Israel essentially has the same view of the rule of law as Hamas then?

bambooze

Nodin wrote: »

Allowing that that statement is true, you then concede that Israel essentially has the same view of the rule of law as Hamas then?

No. Israel surely has a "unique interpretation" of certain international agreements at times but for the most part it plays within the rules - take into account there are hundreds, probably thousands of international laws and agreements that israel is party to, not just the few that make the headlines.

Irlandese

Nodin wrote: »

Allowing that that statement is true, you then concede that Israel essentially has the same view of the rule of law as Hamas then?

This is a critical comparison. It underlines why we desperately need to support the continuation and security of a secular Israeli democracy in the ME.
"The rule of law" for Hamas means the rule of Islamic law, which is indeed very far from the Irish or the Israeli concepts of law. Under Hamas, Palestine would adopt Sharia Law, which many pro-palestinian activists here may well be quite ignorant about. I quote a little from Wikipedia as a taster of what people and in particular, female people can expect under Hamas's "Rule of Law":
"Imposition of the Sharia is often accompanied by controversy,[2][3] and even violence,[4] due to discrepancies between Sharia and internationally recognized concepts of human rights and gender equality[5]. The most contested aspect of the Sharia involves the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, lashing, and beheading). Other contested aspects of sharia include unequal rules of evidence applied on the basis of religion and gender, and unequal rules of inheritance applied according to gender. Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom."

This is a very important point. Thank you Nodin. So, under those nice Hamas guys, we can now look forward to the public stoning of women accused of adultery in the squares of Gaza and the withdrawal of all females from schools, work-places and their enclosure within rooms in homes, swathed in Burkas and subject to all kinds of medievil ignorancy, poverty and abuse? Lovely !

Memnoch

This is the thing that really kills me. Hamas are scumbags, we all know that. No one here would defend them or their actions.

But the Israeli Government kills far more people. Starves people to death. Causes people to die by not letting them purify their water. Causes people to die by not letting them get medical aid. Kills far more civilians, aid workers and journalists.

And EVERY TIME, there's an excuse. There's justification from their trenchant supporters. And they don't see the hypocrisy in this. They don't see the fact that the "self-defence" rhethoric is completely pointless because the other side can claim that just as well, and it just becomes a game of "you killed our people first."

And then they act surprised when people view Israel in an unfavourable light. That's because it's their ACTIONS by which they are being judged, and their arrogance surrounding their actions.

I just can't comprehend the ridiculousness of somehow reconciling the actions of the Israelis with this nonsense narrative.

Wibbs

bambooze wrote: »

The reference to investigations into incidents with far greater loss of life, involving other military forces yet no such global outrage or demands for international investigations is quite a valid point which his alleged bias does not change.

Eh there has been condemnation flying all over the place for Americas "war on terror" human rights abuses in Guantanamo, China in Tibet, the Burma situation, the human rights abuses in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. The list is long.

“Look at what appears to have been a very serious military error made by the German army in Northern Afghanistan last year when something like 50-150 civilians were killed in an air strike,” he said.

“Where was the independent inquiry about that? Where were the calls for an independent inquiry about that? Why is it that Israel is subjected to that kind of call when other democratic countries aren’t?”

One simple reason is that Israel has consistently claimed democracy on one hand while subjugating an ethnic group, through war and plantation and ignoring the UN and others.

As a country Israel has ignored or broken more UN resolutions than any other nation since the formation of the UN. That's not conjecture, hyperbole, or taking sides, that's a fact. It's nowhere close to "just the few that make the headlines".

IrishTonyO

bambooze wrote: »

No. Israel surely has a "unique interpretation" of certain international agreements at times but for the most part it plays within the rules - take into account there are hundreds, probably thousands of international laws and agreements that israel is party to, not just the few that make the headlines.

Think you will find 'unique interpretation' means they think and do what they want.

Wibbs

Irlandese wrote: »

This is a critical comparison. It underlines why we desperately need to support the continuation and security of a secular Israeli democracy in the ME.
"The rule of law" for Hamas means the rule of Islamic law, which is indeed very far from the Irish or the Israeli concepts of law. Under Hamas, Palestine would adopt Sharia Law, which many pro-palestinian activists here may well be quite ignorant about. I quote a little from Wikipedia as a taster of what people and in particular, female people can expect under Hamas's "Rule of Law":
"Imposition of the Sharia is often accompanied by controversy,[2][3] and even violence,[4] due to discrepancies between Sharia and internationally recognized concepts of human rights and gender equality[5]. The most contested aspect of the Sharia involves the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, lashing, and beheading). Other contested aspects of sharia include unequal rules of evidence applied on the basis of religion and gender, and unequal rules of inheritance applied according to gender. Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom."

This is a very important point. Thank you Nodin. So, under those nice Hamas guys, we can now look forward to the public stoning of women accused of adultery in the squares of Gaza and the withdrawal of all females from schools, work-places and their enclosure within rooms in homes, swathed in Burkas and subject to all kinds of medievil ignorancy, poverty and abuse? Lovely !

I agree. We dont need to see one dodgy system with an even dodgier one. One born out of the drift to the religious right. I cant think of even one example in history when a political system become more religious and that was a good thing

Byron85

bambooze wrote: »

He speaks with forked tongue.

Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel, has long maintained that it will enter into a long-term truce if Israel pulls out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and agrees to a right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees.
..
its 1988 founding charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state in all of pre-1948 British-mandate Palestine.

Forked tongue?? Enough of the biblical hyperbole.

What exactly did you expect Hamas to say?? We'll let you take us from behind if we bend over?? Good god.

They are offering a truce! If Israel, or anyone else for that matter, is truly committed to peace they'll jump at the chance to stop the violence. But no they're only offering a truce. Somebody should get on the phone to the IRA, UVF, et al and tell them that the current peace isn't good enough as it can only be defined as a long term truce.

Nodin

bambooze wrote: »

No. Israel surely has a "unique interpretation" of certain international agreements at times but for the most part it plays within the rules - take into account there are hundreds, probably thousands of international laws and agreements that israel is party to, not just the few that make the headlines.

Unfortunately its the exceptions that are causing the problem - the treatment of the Palestinians within the OT and the continuing colonisation with the settlements. It's adherence (or otherwise) to the norms of international post office requirements are not going to cause many any sleepless nights.

Irlandese wrote:

This is a critical comparison. It underlines why (........)in Burkas and subject to all kinds of medievil ignorancy, poverty and abuse? Lovely ! .

And behold the "O NOES!!!1 !!!!! MUZLIMS" card. Seeing as Israel is currently concentrating its expansionist efforts on areas that aren't governed by Hamas, it's a strange one to play....Anyhoo....

If Hamas worshipped an icon of a man eating bananna, it wouldn't make Israels colonisation program right. Unless you want to argue that colonialism is in fact justified in certain circumstances, in which case I suggest starting a thread on the subject, where I will be more than pleased to debate the matter.

gandalf

bambooze wrote: »

The reference to investigations into incidents with far greater loss of life, involving other military forces yet no such global outrage or demands for international investigations is quite a valid point which his alleged bias does not change.

Here is the bit I refer to..

“Look at what appears to have been a very serious military error made by the German army in Northern Afghanistan last year when something like 50-150 civilians were killed in an air strike,” he said.

“Where was the independent inquiry about that? Where were the calls for an independent inquiry about that? Why is it that Israel is subjected to that kind of call when other democratic countries aren’t?”

I still find that interesting.

Well thats ignoring quite a few things isn't it.

Firstly Afghanistan is a theatre of war with ongoing warfare operations.

The Fuel trucks were stolen by the Taliban so a legitimate threat was there.

Contrast that with as Assault in International Waters on a Convoy that all but the most extreme would agree contained civilians with no confirmed threat to Israel except the possibility of some bad PR then that comparison that you call "interesting" is a very bad attempt at deflection.

I feel Mr. Kemp has spent too much time around the wrong people.

This incident happened in International Waters.

It involved people from many different countries.

While you disagree with their sentiments even you have to conceed that it was a civilian fleet and on the whole contained people who had peaceful aims.

A Impartial International Investigation is a necessity for a lot of different reasons and is important for everyone including the Israeli people. If the people who run your country are making decisions which is damaging and isolating your country even more then having them in charge of any investigation will not change anything. An internal investigation based on previous ones will be a Whitewash and those people will continue to make bad or even illegal decisions\ on behalf of the Israeli people.

Nodin

...there was an inquiry over that, and a number of resignations, as far as I recall...two ministers and the head of the German Army resigned....

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

But the Israeli Government kills far more people.

NATO kills far more people. UN sponsored wars killed more people. Tribal war in africa killed more people. Sharia law killed more people. Road accidents killed more people. Where in the rules of engagement does it say one side is not allowed to kill more than the other? Israel has better weapons and equipment so in any engagement it is to be expected that israel would 'win' on numbers. But lets not trivialize just how many people hamas and others have actually killed.. thousands of israelis in fact...

According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Anti-Defamation League, a total of 1,188 Israelis and foreigners were killed and 7,000 wounded between September 2000 and March 2010 by Palestinian terror attacks; while more than 3,000 Israelis have been killed and 25,000 have been wounded as a result of Palestinian violence and hostile enemy action (without including wars) since the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 until today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_casualties_of_war

Starves people to death.

Who starved to death?

Causes people to die by not letting them purify their water.

How difficult is it to boil water? There are all sorts of ways to purify water. Also perhaps hamas should spend money on desal plants instead of weapons.

Causes people to die by not letting them get medical aid.

So do NHS waiting lists. Gaza does have doctors and hospitals even if they suffer some shortages at times and for sure things could be improved there. Gazans are also often treated in israeli hospitals. I bet people have died in Ireland when unable to get treatment there that is available in the US for example, or available only to the rich.

Kills far more civilians, aid workers and journalists.

See above.

Memnoch

And the joke continues. Deny, apologise, deny. Nato did worse. UN said that. Bring in red herrings. Standard whataboutry.

You quote the statistics of Israelis killed by Hamas but consider the statistic of those killed by Israel as invalid or not as valid.

You just don't get it. Their actions are no different. And the fact that you pretend that they are, only makes you seem ridiculously prejudiced.

bambooze

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Forked tongue?? Enough of the biblical hyperbole.

What exactly did you expect Hamas to say?? We'll let you take us from behind if we bend over?? Good god.

They are offering a truce! If Israel, or anyone else for that matter, is truly committed to peace they'll jump at the chance to stop the violence. But no they're only offering a truce. Somebody should get on the phone to the IRA, UVF, et al and tell them that the current peace isn't good enough as it can only be defined as a long term truce.

What good is a truce with hamas? There was already a truce, there have been many, and still the rockets fly (4 since yesterday). A truce to hamas is merely time to regroup and rearm for the next conflict. It is not peace. They do not recognize israel, their charter calls for the destruction of israel, their aim is ALL of mandate palestine. Even if a truce was made with hamas and they stuck to it for a while, what about islamic jihad, pflp, al aqsa martyrs, etc etc? Truce doesn't cut it.

More details on their idea of a truce..

Hamas is willing to reach an agreement with Israel on a temporary truce to halt Qassam rocket fire, in exchange for the cessation of Israel Defense Forces activity against Gaza militants, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh's advisor told the Palestinian news agency Ma'an on Saturday.

The advisor, Ahmed Yusuf, also listed the opening of Gaza border passages and the removal of the economic embargo imposed on the coastal territory as conditions for a temporary truce, called a "tahadiyeh" - or calming - in Arabic.

"We don't oppose a calming that will end the closure," Yusuf said, "but there won't be a calming in exchange for nothing, and it won't be unlimited," he continued.

bambooze

Memnoch wrote: »

You quote the statistics of Israelis killed by Hamas but consider the statistic of those killed by Israel as invalid or not as valid.

Not true. You claim that israel having killed more is somehow relevant or makes israel the bad guy. It is not. Both sides killed plenty.

Memnoch

bambooze wrote: »

Not true. You claim that israel having killed more is somehow relevant or makes israel the bad guy. It is not. Both sides killed plenty.

No. I did not claim that, you're deliberately misrepresenting me.

I said. BOTH SIDES are the bad guy.

Hamas are scumbags and terrorists. But so are the Israeli Government and the IDF.
(note I'm not talking about the Israeli or Palestinian PEOPLE)

You however, keep insisting that anyone Israel kills doesn't count.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation and the Israeli Government is a Terrorist state. Except Israel supporters claim that every action of theirs is justified or justifiable. Which it is not.

Byron85

Was just watching a debate between Norman Finkelstein and a representative of the Zionist Organisation of America about the whole fiasco. Finkelstein said that apparently some video footage shot by a woman on board the ship in question is being released today. She had to smuggle the microchips in her underwear. So here's hoping etc.


Also the representative from the ZOA also openly referred to the activists as "terrorists" when even the IDF has retracted this claim.