Israel Kills 10 aid workers

PirateShampoo

Why did some of the passengers have bags of marbles and catapults if they weren't gonna try and provoke IDF.

sbailie2002

Why is nobody surprised. Israel has been bombing towns in south Lebanon for the past 30 yrs indiscriminitly

Sparticle

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Why did some of the passengers have bags of marbles and catapults if they weren't gonna try and provoke IDF.

This is how it went down in my mind.

1: I got these marbles we can throw at the IDF.
2: Great Idea now we will really get attention for our cause.
1: They have guns, should we stop?
2: Nah they can't board us we are in international waters.
1: They are trying to board!!!
2: Quick knock them off they can't shoot us.
1: They shot <insert name here>
2: Nah there probably using rubber bullets he'll be fine.
1: *Attacks commando with knife* *Gets shot*
2: *Tries to run but gets gunned down in confusion*

PirateShampoo

Another IDF filmed video of the boarding complete with Flash Bangs and Fire bombs.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4e_1275318710

CrinkElite

Sparticle wrote: »

From what I see both parties are in the wrong. Israel used disproportionate force and the flotilla should have surrendered (They were fighting Israeli commandos ffs). The people who would have been arrested could have made a perfectly legal objection and could have used the media to put pressure on Israel. I hope Israel are sanctioned for their arrogance but it is not only their fault.

I realise there is a huge difference between boarding a ship in international waters and putting troops on the ground in another sovereign state, I was commenting on your assertion that the aid workers were somehow wrong to resist the Israeli boarding attempt on the grounds that they were outmatched.

Sparticle

CrinkElite wrote: »

I realise there is a huge difference between boarding a ship in international waters and putting troops on the ground in another sovereign state, I was commenting on your assertion that the aid workers were somehow wrong to resist the Israeli boarding attempt on the grounds that they were outmatched.

Any decision that avoids unnecessary bloodshed is the right one. So in my opinion they made the wrong decision. Therefore they too are in the wrong.

CrinkElite

Sparticle wrote: »

Any decision that avoids unnecessary bloodshed is the right one. So in my opinion they made the wrong decision. Therefore they too are in the wrong.

So I'll go back to my original question.
Would you roll over if they arrived here tomorrow?
To avoid unnecessary bloodshed of course.

robtri

Personally i think both sides seem to be in the wrong...

Israel should never have boarded ships in international waters...
anyone know how far into international waters the flotilia was......

but from the video shown above it looks like the activists, started the violence by attacking the first solider to board......

Yitzhak Rabin

robtri wrote: »

Israel should never have boarded ships in international waters...
anyone know how far into international waters the flotilia was......

60km is what I heard today. Territorial waters end at 20km AFAIK.

PirateShampoo

CrinkElite wrote: »

So I'll go back to my original question.
Would you roll over if they arrived here tomorrow?
To avoid unnecessary bloodshed of course.

They arnt invading another country, the question your asking has no relevance to what has happened. Your just trying to create a situation where your argument is valid.

PirateShampoo

robtri wrote: »

Personally i think both sides seem to be in the wrong...

Israel should never have boarded ships in international waters...
anyone know how far into international waters the flotilia was......

but from the video shown above it looks like the activists, started the violence by attacking the first solider to board......

It also depends if Israel is even signed up to the Treaty that recognizes the whole International waters thingy.

amacachi

There's a lot to this, the Turkish angle is the one I'm most interested in. A lot of people in Europe are under the mistaken illusion that Turkey is some kind of fundamentalist Muslim state and don't want them to join the EU because of that. Their reaction which has been broadcast seems to reinforce the perception somewhat, and having a majority muslim (although secular) state in the EU which is also right next to Israel seems like a big no-no as Israeli/Turkish relations further deteriorate.

Sparticle

CrinkElite wrote: »

So I'll go back to my original question.
Would you roll over if they arrived here tomorrow?
To avoid unnecessary bloodshed of course.

Well they would be butt****ed into oblivion by the international community so yes surrender followed by a the inevitable military response of the EU would be the right decision given our odds at a military victory against a militaristic nation.

+ As stated already they are not invading a country.

CrinkElite

PirateShampoo wrote: »

They arnt invading another country, the question your asking has no relevance to what has happened. Your just trying to create a situation where your argument is valid.

Oh no they'd never do a thing like that :rolleyes:.

The point I'm making is they shouldn't have been there in the first place. They encountered resistance and responded disproportionately.
None of this would have happened if they'd respected international law in the first place.

PirateShampoo

CrinkElite wrote: »

Oh no they'd never do a thing like that :rolleyes:.

The point I'm making is they shouldn't have been there in the first place. They encountered resistance and responded disproportionately.
None of this would have happened if they'd respected international law in the first place.

Depends if Israel are even signed up to the Laws that you speak of.

CrinkElite

Are you saying they were morally or legally entitled to board the ship?

Is it the case that somehow Israel has zero obligation to the international community?

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

Personally i think both sides seem to be in the wrong...

Israel should never have boarded ships in international waters...
anyone know how far into international waters the flotilia was......

but from the video shown above it looks like the activists, started the violence by attacking the first solider to board......

Scroll Down for a google map.
http://witnessgaza.com/

robtri

anybody know what the international law is on trying to run a blockade?
not sure but i thought that was illegal? as the blockade was legal according to international law

Brown Bomber

amacachi wrote: »

There's a lot to this, the Turkish angle is the one I'm most interested in. A lot of people in Europe are under the mistaken illusion that Turkey is some kind of fundamentalist Muslim state and don't want them to join the EU because of that. Their reaction which has been broadcast seems to reinforce the perception somewhat, and having a majority muslim (although secular) state in the EU which is also right next to Israel seems like a big no-no as Israeli/Turkish relations further deteriorate.

And Turkey is a member of NATO, Israel isn't. What happens if Turkey sends another ship and it is intercepted again? War is a strong possibility, NATO would be finished because the other NATO countries wouldn't attack Israel.

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

anybody know what the international law is on trying to run a blockade?
not sure but i thought that was illegal? as the blockade was legal according to international law

What blockade are you talking about?

The Gaza siege is illegal under International law.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What blockade are you talking about?

The Gaza siege is illegal under International law.

the blockade by isreal in water under their control, by isreali ships

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Scroll Down for a google map.
http://witnessgaza.com/

i can see where the ship was attacked... but where does isreali waters end and international waters begin... in realtion to the boarding of the ship and the attack on the boarding party

bonkey

PirateShampoo wrote: »

They didn't land on anybodies shores, they landed on a ship which was running a Blockade.

That's not entirely accurate.

The landed on a ship which was going to run a blockade. They did so before the ship had done anything wrong, and in an area where they had no legal jurisdiction.

Illegal or not they did it and they where attacked has they did so.

I take it that what you mean is that as they attacked the ship in international waters, the people they were attacking fought back.

If you where in the military and ordered to take the ship and was swarmed and attacked how would you respond when ur fearing for your life?

Here's what I'd do...

We know the soldiers had stun grenades, and smoke grenades. (We know this because htey have said that they were taken off some soldiers by the people on the boat, and used against other soldiers).

I would have instructed my team to use such non-lethal measures to ensure a safe landing area. I would then have told them to put multiple men on the ground at the same time to establish a point of presence.

I would have done this in an area where I had jurisdiction.

The only reasons I can think for not doing this are :

a) gross incompetence
or
b) instructions that required me to engineer the situation

PirateShampoo

bonkey wrote: »

Here's what I'd do...

We know the soldiers had stun grenades, and smoke grenades. (We know this because htey have said that they were taken off some soldiers by the people on the boat, and used against other soldiers).

I would have instructed my team to use such non-lethal measures to ensure a safe landing area. I would then have told them to put multiple men on the ground at the same time to establish a point of presence.

I would have done this in an area where I had jurisdiction.

The only reasons I can think for not doing this are :

a) gross incompetence
or
b) instructions that required me to engineer the situation

The IDF had boarded with Paintball guns, then they where mobbed by the passengers, they reportedly changed to handguns after shots where fired at them from handguns taken from IDF troops who where being attacked. Have you looked at any of the videos i posted?

You cant put multiple man on the ground on a landing of a boat, its imposable.

bonkey

PirateShampoo wrote: »

The IDF had boarded with Paintball guns, then they where mobbed by the passengers, they reportedly changed to handguns after shots where fired at them from handguns taken from IDF troops who where being attacked. Have you looked at any of the videos i posted?

Yes...I have. They're curiously missing in a lot of detail. They don't clearly show things starting, and have gaps. Hard to understand, really. Its almost as though someone edited them. Maybe they were just removing the boring bits for us.

Not one of the videos, incidentally, show the IDF establishing a "safe zone" in which they could land their people, which is what I said I felt they should do. It shows them sending soldiers down single-file into a seething mass of people waiting for them.

You cant put multiple man on the ground on a landing of a boat, its imposable.

Why is it impossible to run multiple rappel lines from a helicopter (or helicopters) onto a ship that size?

enno99

The Navy has held a number of drills in recent weeks to prepare for the arrival of the small fleet, which is expected to try breaking the Israel-imposed sea blockade on Gaza and dock at its newly expanded port.

The scenarios drilled included the commandeering of the ships, which could, military sources said Wednesday, include violent clashes – depending on the response by the passengers on the vessels

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=176655

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

i can see where the ship was attacked... but where does isreali waters end and international waters begin... in realtion to the boarding of the ship and the attack on the boarding party

" Apparently A state's territorial sea extends up to 12 nautical miles (22 km) from its baseline."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Special_cases

Besides, some Israeli Minister for Propoganda and deceit already accepted it was in International waters.

enno99

Is a ship in international waters under the jurisdiction of the state it is registered in?

My name is URL

enno99 wrote: »

Is a ship in international waters under the jurisdiction of the state it is registered in?

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part7.htm

Liability for seizure without adequate grounds

Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft for any loss or damage caused by the seizure.

Brown Bomber

My name is URL wrote: »

Turkey is a secular country, with no official state religion

And an Israeli ally.

Brown Bomber

Y'know what I find quite sad?

It is not much more than 60 years ago that it was Jewish Holocaust survivors in the ships trying to enter Palestine getting attacked by the British military at that stage.

A letter from one of the passengers.



Memories can be too short.

There was even a Holocaust survivor on one of the Free Gaza boats, and a USS Liberty survivor, an Irish Nobel Laureate, and just like the Jewish refugee boars elderly, children, women and women, all civilians.

What else is sad is that while the world is outraged (except Pirateshampoo;)) this is daily life for the Palestinian people. The same Israeli gunboats just a couple of weeks ago murdered a Palestinian fishermen at sea. But the world doesn't care about Palestine.

Of course a handful do, Rachel Corrie did and she lost her life trying to prevent a families house being torn to the ground. A handful of people from around the world cared and and they tried to bring some mild relief to the starving, mostly children population of Gaza.

Some quick facts on Gaza just to give you an idea if you don't know

* since the intensification of the siege in June 2007, “the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed” (More than 80 UN and aid agencies[.pdf])


* ”61% of people in the Gaza Strip are … food insecure,” of which “65% are children under 18 years” (UN FAO)


* since June 2007, “the number of Palestine refugees unable to access food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water, has tripled” (UNRWA)


* ”in February 2009, the level of anemia in babies (9-12 months) was as high as 65.5%” (UN FAO)

It matters not however Israel tries to spin it. These people were not terrorists, were not armed were at worst on PR excercise, but mainly wanted to make a stand against an illegal occupation by an apartheid state as people are dying because they are trapped in their prison like animals starving. To the people who say it was a publicity stunt, what of it? The world has ignored Palestine for fear upsetting Israel, somebody needs to do something. What chance have they got when Tony Blair is the ME peace envoy, a ****ing war criminal himself.

Israeli has no legal right to prevent any ships from boarding in Gaza. Israel has no rights to intercept any ship in international waters. Israel has no right to murder civilians indiscriminately. Israel can do whatever the **** she wants and the world will play along, time will prove this.

This year alone they have constantly threatened war with Iran. Increased their illegal settlements. Maintained their illegal siege on Gaza. Stolen EU passports and committed an illegal assassination in a foriegn country. Refused to even consider becoming a partner to the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty and now massacred 20 civilians on a aid convoy in international waters. Israel needs to be stopped.

Brown Bomber

Norman Finkelstein - Israel is a "lunatic state".

halkar

Here the conspiracy theories that going around in the Turkish media :

Turkey rocket attack 'kills six' at naval base, The attack took place at about 0400 local time.

Not much here but here is the link from Bbc

Military Asault on the ships started at 0430 .
Both happened within 30 minutes of each other.

And this :
Inside Iraq - Is Israel helping Iraq's Kurds

1+1=3

Chimichangas

Brown Bomber wrote: »

.....that while the world is outraged (except Pirateshampoo;)) this is daily life for the Palestinian people. The same Israeli gunboats just a couple of weeks ago murdered a Palestinian fishermen at sea. But the world doesn't care about Palestine.

Of course a handful do, Rachel Corrie did and she lost her life trying to prevent a families house being torn to the ground. A handful of people from around the world cared and and they tried to bring some mild relief to the starving, mostly children population of Gaza.

Some quick facts on Gaza just to give you an idea if you don't know

Quote:
* since the intensification of the siege in June 2007, “the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed” (More than 80 UN and aid agencies[.pdf])


* ”61% of people in the Gaza Strip are … food insecure,” of which “65% are children under 18 years” (UN FAO)


* since June 2007, “the number of Palestine refugees unable to access food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water, has tripled” (UNRWA)


* ”in February 2009, the level of anemia in babies (9-12 months) was as high as 65.5%” (UN FAO)


It matters not however Israel tries to spin it. These people were not terrorists, were not armed were at worst on PR excercise, but mainly wanted to make a stand against an illegal occupation by an apartheid state as people are dying because they are trapped in their prison like animals starving. To the people who say it was a publicity stunt, what of it? The world has ignored Palestine for fear upsetting Israel, somebody needs to do something. What chance have they got when Tony Blair is the ME peace envoy, a ****ing war criminal himself.

Israeli has no legal right to prevent any ships from boarding in Gaza. Israel has no rights to intercept any ship in international waters. Israel has no right to murder civilians indiscriminately. Israel can do whatever the **** she wants and the world will play along, time will prove this.

This year alone they have constantly threatened war with Iran. Increased their illegal settlements. Maintained their illegal siege on Gaza. Stolen EU passports and committed an illegal assassination in a foriegn country. Refused to even consider becoming a partner to the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty and now massacred 20 civilians on a aid convoy in international waters. Israel needs to be stopped.

brownbomber, where did you get your facts on Gaza? I heard the isreali ambassador say that there was ample food in gaza, plenty of oil and gas, water and that they are sending a load of laptops(no idea what spec, or even if they turn on..) to the children of gaza.

The respected ambassadors facts also included:

**'10000 rockets have been launched against isreal'. he didnt mention the numbers of injured or killed. or the time span. might go back to an earlier war. didnt mention anything about retaliation attacks or punishments, or deaths of palestinians.

**The, i reali, commandos having boarded the ship at 4 in the morning with no warning were only defending themselves against the boat occupants using "knives", when they reverted to the use of lethal force with guns
(no Krav Maga available??). This kind of defence/offence,lethal force, is used often in the gaza strip when the kids attack the IDF with their stones and pebbles. you wont throw many stones after a bullet to the head. crude but effective. its similar to other techniques used throughout history.
And to be fair to isreal and the idf I think the palestinian armed groups also used the lethal force defence against the idf tanks when they invaded that refugee camp a few years ago.



And why does IDF revert to the use of such unrestrained, inappropriate and lethal force?
I think it comes from fear. The same fear that affects a whole nation, maybe society.
And not a fear that would be understood by most people, maybe armenians might. and perhaps palestinians in gaza would come close to understanding it.
After WWII and The Holocaust all of jewish society, I would imagine, should have received some form of counselling to cope with their loss.

This is just an opinion,my own, and I dont mean any offence to israelis or jewish society.

Brown Bomber

Chimichangas wrote: »

brownbomber, where did you get your facts on Gaza? I heard the isreali ambassador say that there was ample food in gaza, plenty of oil and gas, water and that they are sending a load of laptops(no idea what spec, or even if they turn on..) to the children of gaza.

To put it bluntly he is a lying bastard.

He/you makes it sound like a holiday resort. And laptops? Are you joking? They can't even be sure of electricity. Still, there there is always the the consolation of a laptop when your a starving child suffering from post traumatic stress disorder because you seen your family murdered before your eyes while you were waiting in UN shelter that was intentionally targetted.

Here is some facts for Gaza.

HUMAN RIGHTS IN PALESTINE AND OTHER
OCCUPIED ARAB TERRITORIES
Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict∗
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf


1. The Blockade

The blockade comprises measures such as restrictions on the goods that can be imported into Gaza and the
closure of border crossings for people, goods and services, sometimes for days, including cuts on
the provision of fuel and electricity. Gaza’s economy is further severely affected by the reduction
of the fishing zone open to the Palestinian fishermen and the establishment of a “buffer zone”
along the border between Gaza and Israel which reduces the land available for agriculture and
industrial activity. In addition to creating an emergency situation, the blockade significantly
weakened the capacities of the population and of the health, water and other public sectors to
react to the emergency created by the military operations.
28. The Mission holds the view that Israel continues to be duty-bound under the Fourth Geneva
Convention and to the full extent of the means available to it to ensure the supply of foodstuff,
medical and hospital items and others to meet the humanitarian needs of the population of the
Gaza Strip without qualification.

39. The Mission also finds that, on the same day, the Israeli forces directly and intentionally
attacked the Al Quds Hospital in Gaza City and the adjacent ambulance depot with white
phosphorous shells. The attack caused fires which took a whole day to extinguish and caused
panic among the sick and wounded who had to be evacuated. The Mission finds that no warning
was given at any point of an imminent strike. On the basis of its investigation, the Mission
rejects the allegation that fire was directed at Israeli forces from within the hospital.

46. From the facts ascertained in all the above cases, the Mission finds that the conduct of the
Israeli armed forces constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of
wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons and as such give rise to
individual criminal responsibility. It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of
Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life.

9. Attacks on the foundations of civilian life in Gaza: destruction of industrial
infrastructure, food production, water installations, sewage treatment and housing

Already at the beginning of the military operations, the Al Bader flour mill was the only
flour mill in the Gaza Strip still operating. The flour mill was hit by a series of air strikes on 9
January 2009 after several false warnings had been issued on previous days. The Mission finds
that its destruction had no military justification. The nature of the strikes, in particular the precise
targeting of crucial machinery, suggests that the intention was to disable the factory in terms of
its productive capacity. From the facts it ascertained, the Mission finds that there has been a
violation of the grave breaches provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Unlawful and
wanton destruction which is not justified by military necessity amounts to a war crime. The
Mission also finds that the destruction of the mill was carried out for the purposes of denying
sustenance to the civilian population, which is a violation of customary international law and may constitute a war crime. The strike on the flour mill further constitutes a violation of human
rights provisions regarding the right to adequate food and means of subsistence.

51. The chicken farms of Mr. Sameh Sawafeary in the Zeitoun neighbourhood south of Gaza
City reportedly supplied over 10 per cent of the Gaza egg market. Armoured bulldozers of the
Israeli forces systematically flattened the chicken coops, killing all 31,000 chickens inside, and
destroyed the plant and material necessary for the business. The Mission concludes that this was
a deliberate act of wanton destruction not justified by any military necessity and draws the same
legal conclusions as in the case of the destruction of the flour mill.

52. Israeli forces also carried out a strike against a wall of one of the raw sewage lagoons of the
Gaza Waste Water Treatment Plant, which caused the outflow of more than 200,000 cubic
metres of raw sewage into neighbouring farmland. The circumstances of the strike on the lagoon
suggest that it was deliberate and premeditated. The Namar Wells complex in Jabalya consisted
of two water wells, pumping machines, a generator, fuel storage, a reservoir chlorination unit,
buildings and related equipment. All were destroyed by multiple air strikes on the first day of the
Israeli aerial attack. The Mission considers it unlikely that a target the size of the Namar Wells
could have been hit by multiple strikes in error. It found no grounds to suggest that there was any
military advantage to be had by hitting the wells and noted that there was no suggestion that
Palestinian armed groups had used the wells for any purpose. Considering that the right to
drinking water is part of the right to adequate food, the Mission makes the same legal findings as
in the case of the Al Bader flour mill.

Combining the results of its own fact finding on the ground with UNOSAT imagery and the
published testimonies of Israeli soldiers, the Mission concludes that, in addition to the extensive
destruction of housing for so-called “operational necessity” during their advance, the Israeli

forces engaged in another wave of systematic destruction of civilian buildings during the last
three days of their presence in Gaza, aware of the imminence of withdrawal. The conduct of the
Israeli forces in this respect violated the principle of distinction between civilian and military
objects and amounted to the grave breach of “extensive destruction … of property, not justified
by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly”. Israeli forces further violated the
right to adequate housing of the families concerned.

54. The attacks on industrial facilities, food production and water infrastructure investigated by
the Mission are part of a broader pattern of destruction, which includes the destruction of the
only cement packaging plant in Gaza (the Atta Abu Jubbah plant), the Abu Eida factories for
ready-mix concrete, further chicken farms and the Al Wadia Group’s foods and drinks factories.
The facts ascertained by the Mission indicate that there was a deliberate and systematic policy on
the part of the Israeli armed forces to target industrial sites and water installations.

13. The impact of the military operations and of the blockade on the Gaza population and
their human rights

The economy, employment
opportunities and family livelihoods were already severely affected by the blockade when the
Israeli offensive began. Insufficient supply of fuel for electricity generation had a negative
impact on industrial activity, on the operation of hospitals, on water supply to households and on
sewage treatment. Import restrictions and the ban on all exports from Gaza affected the industrial
sector and agricultural production. Unemployment levels and the percentage of the population
living in poverty and deep poverty were rising.

66. In this precarious situation, the military operations destroyed a substantial part of the
economic infrastructure. As a large part of the factories were targeted and destroyed or damaged,
poverty, unemployment and food insecurity further increased dramatically. The agricultural
sector similarly suffered due to the destruction of agricultural land, water wells and fishing boats
during the military operations. The continuation of the blockade impedes the reconstruction of
the economic infrastructure destroyed.

67. As a result of the razing of farmland and destruction of greenhouses, food insecurity is
expected to further worsen in spite of the increased quantities of food items allowed into Gaza
since the beginning of the military operations. Dependence on food assistance increases. Levels
of stunting and thinness in children and of anaemia prevalence in children and pregnant women
were worrying already before the military operations. The hardship caused by the extensive
destruction of shelter (UNDP reported 3,354 houses completely destroyed and 11,112 partially
damaged) and resulting displacement particularly affects children and women. In the water and
sanitation sector, the destruction of infrastructure (such as the destruction of the Namar wells and
the attack against the water treatment plant described in Chapter XIII), aggravated the preexisting
situation. Already before the military operations, 80 percent of the water supplied in
Gaza did not meet the WHO’s standards for drinking water. The discharge of untreated or partially treated waste water into the sea is a further health hazard worsened by the military
operations.

They also told the
Mission that 20 percent of children in the Gaza Strip suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorders

72. The Mission acknowledges that the supply of humanitarian goods, particularly foodstuffs,
allowed into Gaza by Israel temporarily increased during the military operations. The level of
goods allowed into Gaza before the military operations, however, was insufficient to meet the
needs of the population even before hostilities started, and has again decreased after the end of
the military operations. From the facts ascertained by it, the Mission believes that Israel has
violated its obligation to allow free passage of all consignments of medical and hospital objects,
food and clothing (article 23 of the Fourth Geneva Convention). The Mission also finds that
Israel violated specific obligations it has as Occupying Power spelled out in the Fourth Geneva
Convention, such as the duty to maintain medical and hospital establishments and services and to
agree to relief schemes if the occupied territory is not well supplied.

Israel violated specific obligations it has as Occupying Power spelled out in the Fourth Geneva
Convention, such as the duty to maintain medical and hospital establishments and services and to
agree to relief schemes if the occupied territory is not well supplied.

74. The conditions of life in Gaza, resulting from deliberate actions of the Israeli forces and the
declared policies of the Government of Israel – as they were presented by its authorized and
legitimate representatives - with regard to the Gaza Strip before, during and after the military
operation, cumulatively indicate the intention to inflict collective punishment on the people of
the Gaza Strip in violation of international humanitarian law.

75. Finally, the Mission considered whether the series of acts that deprive Palestinians in the
Gaza Strip of their means of sustenance, employment, housing and water, that deny their
freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their access
a court of law and an effective remedy, could amount to persecution, a crime against humanity

HUMAN RIGHTS SITUATION IN PALESTINE AND
OTHER OCCUPIED ARAB TERRITORIES
Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights
in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, Richard Falk
http://gazasiege.org/docs/feb09/UN_Gaza_Report_RichardFalk_2_18_2009.pdf

4. In relation to Gaza there is a further concern with respect to the nature of Israel's legal
obligations toward the Gazan population. Israel officially contends that after the
implementation of its disengagement plan in 2005 it no longer is an occupying power,
and as a result is not responsible for observance of the obligations set forth in the Fourth Geneva Convention. This contention has been widely rejected both by expert opinion, by
the de facto realities of effective control, and by official pronouncements by for instance
the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (A/HRC/8/17), the General Assembly
(A/63/96, A/63/98), the UN Secretary General (A/HRC/8/17) and the Security Council
(S/RES/1860). Israel since 2005 has completely controlled all entry and exit routes by
land and sea, as well as asserted control over Gazan airspace and territorial waters. And
by imposing a blockade in effect since the summer of 2007 it has profoundly affected the
life and wellbeing of every single person living in Gaza. Therefore, regardless of the
international status of the occupied Palestinian territory with respect to the use of force,
the obligations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, as well as of international human rights
law and international criminal law are fully applicable.

As recent reports to the HRC by the
Special Rapporteur had emphasized, the residents of Gaza were particularly vulnerable to
physical and mental damage from such attacks as the society as a whole had been
previously brought to the edge of collapse by 18 months of blockade that restricted to
sub-subsistence levels the flow of food, fuel, and medical supplies, and was responsible
according to health specialists for a serious overall decline in the health of the population,
and of the health system. Any assessment under international law of the 27 December
attacks should take account of the weakened condition of the Gazan civilian populations
resulting from the sustained unlawfulness of the preexisting Israeli blockade that violated
Article 33 (prohibition on collective punishment) and Article 55 (duty to provide food
and health care to the occupied population) of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Considering the overriding obligation of the occupying power to care for the wellbeing of
the civilian occupied population, mounting a comprehensive attack on a society already
weakened by unlawful occupation practices would appear to aggravate the breach of
responsibility described in the prior paragraph due to the difficulties of maintaining the
principle of distinction.

This is from Human Rights group B'Tselem

The siege on the Gaza Strip: 1.5 million people imprisoned

Harsh restrictions on imports

Under agreements between Israel and Egypt, the Gaza Strip’s foreign trade must be conducted through Israel. The quantity of goods that Israel allows into the area is less than one-quarter the quantity that entered prior to the siege, and far below the amount required for the population’s needs. The range of goods that Israel allows in is also much smaller: 150 types of goods compared with 4,000 before the siege. Israel refuses to publish the list of products permitted into the Gaza Strip, or the rules used in determining the list. The NGO Gisha filed an action in the Administrative Court demanding this information. In refusing the demand, the state argued that providing this information would harm state security and Israel’s foreign relations. The court has not yet given its decision.

Difficulties in rebuilding destroyed and damaged buildings

Israel prohibits the importing of building materials, including iron and cement. The prohibition has remained in place even after Operation Cast Lead, during which 3,500 houses were completely destroyed, thousands more damaged, and extensive harm caused to infrastructures. Israel’s prohibition is preventing the reconstruction of thousands of buildings destroyed during the operation.

Frequent blackouts, sewage flowing into the sea

The siege also severely impairs the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip. Since September 2007, when Israel declared the Gaza Strip a “hostile entity” following the firing of Qassam rockets, Israel has cut reduced the supply of industrial fuel, which is needed to operate the power station in Gaza. Following a petition filed by the NGOs Gisha and Adalah, the state agreed to supply some 63 percent of the fuel needed to meet all the residents’ needs. In practice, however, it provides less than this quantity. As a result of Israel’s policy, 98 percent of Gaza residents suffer from planned blackouts lasting up to eight or ten hours a day. The other two percent of the population do not receive any electricity at all, in part due to the shortage of spare parts, which makes it impossible to repair infrastructure, or due to the proximity of their homes to the border with Israel.

The frequent power cuts and shortage of spare parts prevent the proper operation of wells and desalination plants. When combined with excessive pumping over the years, the result is that the water in the Gaza Strip is of poor quality. At the end of 2009, 93 percent of the wells were found to be polluted with high quantities of chloride and nitrates, far in excess of the World Health Organization’s recommended levels. The water supply is defective, and thousands of residents are not even connected to the water grid. Waste treatment has also been affected: every day, some 100,000 cubic meters of untreated, or partially untreated, wastewater flow into the sea.

Almost complete prohibition on exports

Prior to the siege, seventy trucks with goods intended for export, such as furniture, clothes, and agricultural produce, left the Gaza Strip daily. Israel currently prohibits almost all exports. From the beginning of the siege to the end of April 2010, Israel has only allowed the export of strawberries and flowers intended for the European market in isolated cases.

Serious harm to the agriculture and fishing sectors

Agriculture has been hit hard by the siege and thousands of persons have lost their source of livelihood. This is due, in part, to the prohibition on the entry of basic items such as pesticides and spare parts for irrigation systems, as well as the prohibition on exports. In addition, farmers in areas near the Israeli border are unable to reach their land because Israel has declared extensive sections of land a “security strip” to which access is forbidden or restricted. Moreover, Israel has adopted open-fire regulations that permit the shooting of any person who enters these areas, even if the person does not pose any danger. Israel has also restricted the area in which fishing is allowed; since Operation Cast Lead, fishermen are not allowed to go more than three nautical miles from the coast. The waters within this range yield a meager supply of fish, and fishermen find it difficult to make a living and to meet the demand for fish.

The result – economic collapse and severe poverty

Israel’s policy has led to economic collapse in Gaza. The prohibition on bringing in raw materials and on exports has led to the closing of 95 percent of the factories and workshops in the area. Tens of thousands of persons have lost their livelihood, and unemployment now exceeds 40 percent. As a result, more than 70 percent of the population depends on aid from international organizations to obtain food. In 2007, humanitarian aid amounted to 3 percent of imports; by 2009, this figure had risen to 26 percent.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20100531_The_Siege_on_Gaza.asp

And finally an Amnesty International Report from just a couple of days ago.

Gaza blockade suffocating agriculture sector, creating food insecurity
25 May 2010 12:38:28 GMT
Source: World Vision Middle East/Eastern Europe/ Central Asia office

Since the imposition of Israel's blockade on the Gaza Strip in June 2007, the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed. Over sixty (60) percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and well-being of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation.

The acting Humanitarian Coordinator for the occupied Palestinian Territory (oPt), Philippe Lazzarini, representing humanitarian aid agencies, and the Association of International Development Agencies (AIDA), representing over 80 NGOs, is in the Gaza Strip to reiterate this message.

Lazzarini emphasizes, 'saving agricultural livelihoods and local food production in Gaza depends on three factors: (i) the opening of border crossings to provide humanitarian and commercial access to agricultural materials and international markets; (ii) unrestricted and safe access to vital agricultural land and fishing zones; and (iii) access to materials necessary to prevent long-term damage to soil, stemming from the uncontrolled dumping of sewage, salination, unexploded ordinance and other contamination.' In the absence of such improvements, the entire fishing and farming sectors in the Gaza Strip are at risk of collapse. The Gaza population at-large is already becoming increasingly dependent on humanitarian aid.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/wvmeero/59f63b9334c17e02900601b71f758a0f.htm

I don't know about you but in the choice between an Israeli ambassador and comprehensive UN reports and humanitariun organisations I know who I'd be trusting.

Mahatma coat

bonkey wrote: »

As a matter of interest...how do you know its bull?

Seriously???? because it was

I don't believe that the Israeli's had any right to board the ships, particularly in international waters, I'm curious as to how you can be so certain as to the sequence of events as to be able to proclaim that one version of it is wrong.

they had no right to board the ships, they have no right to maintain a blockade, they have no right to steal Palestinian Land.

The sequence of events as I see it is that Pirates boarded a turkish ship, they opened fire before they were onboard,

Also seriously 'Commandos' with Paintball guns :rolleyes:

Is it just because its the Israeli version?

No its because its clearly a bucket of lies

The cynic in me reads this as saying "There's a conspiracy here for sure, but we just don't know what it is yet".

Well I was more thinkin of how it would be interesting to record the Facts of the day from the beginning, then in a few weeks we can watch how the spindoctors have convinced the masses that something entirley different happened.

this one is gonna be both a CT and a Coverup.

Brown Bomber

Chimichangas wrote: »

brownbomber, where did you get your facts on Gaza? I heard the isreali ambassador say that there was ample food in gaza, plenty of oil and gas, water and that they are sending a load of laptops(no idea what spec, or even if they turn on..) to the children of gaza.

Chimichangas wrote: »

The respected ambassadors facts also included:

Respected by whom? Certainly not me, I have already demonstrated that he is a liar and obfuscator. Is he respected by you? If so, why?

Chimichangas wrote: »

**'10000 rockets have been launched against isreal'. he didnt mention the numbers of injured or killed. or the time span. might go back to an earlier war. didnt mention anything about retaliation attacks or punishments, or deaths of palestinians.

I think for these matters Human Rights groups are your best source. Again from Israeil org B'Tslem:

Based on B'Tselem’s research, from June 2004 to the end of Operation Cast Lead, on 17 January 2009, 19 civilians were killed in Israel by rockets and mortar fire by Palestinians. Four of them were minors. In addition, two soldiers were killed. Another Israeli civilian and one foreign national were killed by Qassam rockets in settlements in the Gaza Strip, prior to their evacuation. Qassam rocket fire also killed five Palestinians, two of them minors.


According to UN figures, in 2005, 1,194 Qassam rockets were fired at Israel (an average of 100 a month), in 2006 the rocket fire increased to 1,786 (an average of 149 a month), and in 2007, 1,331 were fired (an average of 111 a month). According to Israel Security Agency figures, in 2008, 2,048 rockets and more than 1,672 mortar shells were fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel (this figure does not include the period of Operation Cast Lead, which began on 27 December, during which the rocket and mortar fire increased significantly).

I wonder does anyone keep count of what is fired onto Gaza? Not that I defend the targetting of civilians I must say.

Chimichangas wrote: »

**The, i reali, commandos having boarded the ship at 4 in the morning with no warning were only defending themselves against the boat occupants using "knives", when they reverted to the use of lethal force with guns

This sentence is very confusing to me. It seems completely contradictary.

On the one hand you have Israeli commandos attacking a civilian ship while on the other hand these same armed commandos who attacks the civilians are forced into "defending themselves"????

Chimichangas wrote: »

(no Krav Maga available??). This kind of defence/offence,lethal force, is used often in the gaza strip when the kids attack the IDF with their stones and pebbles. you wont throw many stones after a bullet to the head. crude but effective. its similar to other techniques used throughout history.

It is similar to other wanton killing in history yes. Again I apologise but I am confused once more by your statement. Initially you begin by appearing to be critical of the massacre and the IDF for murdering children in Palestine but then go on to describe it in "harsh but fair" terms, like putting down a dog. I mean what could you possibly imagine a "bullet to the head" from a trained solider to a child throwing "stones and pebbles" could ever possibly achieve,? what is it "effective" at`?

Chimichangas wrote: »

And to be fair to isreal and the idf I think the palestinian armed groups also used the lethal force defence against the idf tanks when they invaded that refugee camp a few years ago.

Again, personally I think you are contradicting yourself in the very same sentence. I mean you admit yourself that the IDF "invaded that refugee camp" with "tanks", by "lethal force defense" I assume you mean trapped like an animal in a refugee camp and fighting for your life. Why do you feel the need to defend a state and army that commits war crimes?

I'm guessing you mean Jenin? We seen more war crimes there again I'm afraid.

Chimichangas wrote: »

And why does IDF revert to the use of such unrestrained, inappropriate and lethal force?
I think it comes from fear.

No. It comes from orders. Orders to shoot to kill. Orders to shoot after the flying of a white flag. This was no accident. As for the person who pulls the trigger, that comes from indoctrination and a supremacist society that dehumanises non Jews.

Chimichangas wrote: »

The same fear that affects a whole nation, maybe society.
And not a fear that would be understood by most people, maybe armenians might. and perhaps palestinians in gaza would come close to understanding it.
After WWII and The Holocaust all of jewish society, I would imagine, should have received some form of counselling to cope with their loss.

In terms of suffering, Ireland has a comparable history with anyone, yet I don't feel to need to kill civilians in international waters.

Chimichangas wrote: »

This is just an opinion,my own, and I dont mean any offence to israelis or jewish society.

And I respect it, honestly I do. But I genuinely feel if you are worried about offending anyone you should be concerned about all peoples, not just a single group.

Brown Bomber

bonkey wrote: »

To be fair, that's not a million miles from saying a post on stormfront.org is "an American POV".

Pro-Israelis celebrating the massacre of Turks outside the Turkish embassy. Complete sickness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMzc1N1Cx3s

bonkey

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Pro-Israelis celebrating the massacre of Turks outside the Turkish embassy. Complete sickness.

My objection was to taking a viewpoint expressed on a self-professed pro-Israel advcacy site, and portraying it as "an Israeli perspective".

There are always individuals who are extreme enough to celebrate the worst of tragedies when it befalls a group they approve of seeing suffer. To portray that as anything but an extremist viewpoint, however (e.g. as "Israeli" rather then "extremist Israel-advocacy") is not something I would see as appropriate.

bonkey

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Seriously???? because it was

Yes. Seriously. I wanted to know if you'd any reason for declaring it to be bull other than that you don't believe it to be true. Apparently, you don't.

The sequence of events as I see it is that Pirates boarded a turkish ship, they opened fire before they were onboard,

You're entitled to see it whatever way you want. I asked if you had any reason for believing one version over the other, to see if you had evidence to support your belief. Apparently, you don't.

Well I was more thinkin of how it would be interesting to record the Facts of the day from the beginning,

I find it ironic that on one hand you're insisting that something is false, without offering evidence to that effect....while on the other hand, saying it would be interesting to record the facts.

Brown Bomber

bonkey wrote: »

My objection was to taking a viewpoint expressed on a self-professed pro-Israel advcacy site, and portraying it as "an Israeli perspective".

There are always individuals who are extreme enough to celebrate the worst of tragedies when it befalls a group they approve of seeing suffer. To portray that as anything but an extremist viewpoint, however (e.g. as "Israeli" rather then "extremist Israel-advocacy") is not something I would see as appropriate.

Fair enough, but I don't remember a single Irish person celebrating the Omagh bomb for example. Everyone I knew to a man was utterly disgusted.

Di0genes

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Fair enough, but I don't remember a single Irish person celebrating the Omagh bomb for example. Everyone I knew to a man was utterly disgusted.

And there was cheering on the streets in Gaza after 9/11, while Arrafat gave blood to help victims of the attacks.

It's not helping the situation if you try and simply the situation that all jews think one way and all arabs think another...

Mahatma coat

are you talkin about the 'Cheer for Cake' incidnet???

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

And there was cheering on the streets in Gaza after 9/11, while Arrafat gave blood to help victims of the attacks.

It's not helping the situation if you try and simply the situation that all jews think one way and all arabs think another...

I'm not.

Do you denounce the massacre on the humanatarian ships?

Di0genes

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not.

Do you denounce the massacre on the humanatarian ships?

Of course I do obviously. A friend of my wife was on one of the ships. :rolleyes:

Mahatma coat

bonkey wrote: »

Yes. Seriously. I wanted to know if you'd any reason for declaring it to be bull other than that you don't believe it to be true. Apparently, you don't.


You're entitled to see it whatever way you want. I asked if you had any reason for believing one version over the other, to see if you had evidence to support your belief. Apparently, you don't.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here a bit and say that its a kinda

'Mysterious Intuition'

in the same way that I question a lot of what We're told about the Tehran Riots a while ago I dont seriously doubt that people were shot at and indeed some died, we live in a magnificent world here people can communicate with each other almost instantaneously over vast distances, I tend to trust the Time and date stamped original media over the insidious spin of an organisation with a proven track record of deceit

I find it ironic that on one hand you're insisting that something is false, without offering evidence to that effect....while on the other hand, saying it would be interesting to record the facts.

I'm only basing it upon the evidence I have sofar seen, including a few of the original cameraphone and TV recording from the boat, they should still be on the RAM of the laptop I keep in the lunchroom, I'll upload em at Smoko tomorrow.

TMoreno

Di0genes wrote: »

And there was cheering on the streets in Gaza after 9/11, while Arrafat gave blood to help victims of the attacks.

It's not helping the situation if you try and simply the situation that all jews think one way and all arabs think another...

That's not true.
You're confusing with the 5 dancing Israelis.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

That's not true.
You're confusing with the 5 dancing Israelis.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

I don't think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

Nothing confusing about dancing Israeli's Jews love dancing. FACT!!

TMoreno

studiorat wrote: »

I don't think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

Nothing confusing about dancing Israeli's Jews love dancing. FACT!!

The 5 Dancing Israelis were Mossad agents and they were there "to document the event". They said that on Israel TV. What can I do. Facts are facts:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html
It's the beginning of the end for Mossad and co.

studiorat

TMoreno wrote: »

The 5 Dancing Israelis were Mossad agents and they were there "to document the event". They said that on Israel TV. What can I do. Facts are facts:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html
It's the beginning of the end for Mossad and co.

You said that the dancing on the streets of Gaza didn't happen either yet I showed you you were wrong. Now you say the Dancing Jews were Mossad agents.