Israel Kills 10 aid workers

Yitzhak Rabin

PirateShampoo wrote: »

On another note we are pages 10 in and there still hasn't been 1 conspiracy put forward.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66164618&postcount=23

I'm going to propose that the conspiracy is that Israel knew that its actions would lead to loss of life.

They boarded the vessel, which is completely unnecessary. With their military prowess and capability they could easily have just destroyed the rudder and towed the ships to Antosch if they really wanted to.

Secondly, they attacked in the dead of night. The only reason you do this is to create mass confusion and use this confusion to your advantage. This was a vessel of unarmed civilians. There was absolutely no need to create surprise and confusion, and we have witnessed the devastating results of such a stupid decision.

I think Israel knew very well that this would be the outcome of their boarding, and in fact planned it so this would happen.

EDIT: Also, the fact that they prevented the diplomats from boarding at Cyprus further points to the fact that they planned and knew this attack would be deadly.

Ironbar

PirateShampoo wrote: »

So now do you see the circle in which both sides rotate in?

Well, there will never be peace down there that's for sure. The placing of the state Israel down there 1900 years after the death of Herod, the last king of palastine (who was not a jew but an idumaean) was the biggest mistake ever to be done.

Or was it done on purpose by the USA so they could have a bridgehead down there to quickly intervene in case of trouble with the USSR ?

Well the idea has backfired. I'd say soon we will have a massive war down there that will cost thousands or even millions of lives.

studiorat

http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/press-releases/1173-we-will-resist-israels-attempts-to-stop-us

The strategy of the Freedom Flotilla, however, is to resist any attempts by the Israeli Navy to hijack its ships or to divide cargo ships from passenger vessels.

“The message from Israel is clear: ‘We will stop you. And no-one can prevent us from stopping you.’ said Free Gaza chair, Huwaida Arraf.

“However, we will non-violently resist Israeli attempts to seize our boats. Thousands of people have contributed to making this flotilla a reality, and the people of Gaza are expecting us.

“We will not allow our flotilla to be divided. We will stay with our cargo ships – they are the core of the flotilla carrying essential construction materials denied entry into Gaza – cement, steel, and houses. This action is not a symbolic gesture but a concrete intervention to allow the people of Gaza to rebuild their lives with dignity’, emphasized passenger, Aengus O’Snodaigh, TD Sinn Féin party, Ireland

Yitzhak Rabin

From my point of view, I think the initial orders to board were illegal. Israel quoting maritime law to justify it given that their blockade is illegal is seriously hypocritical.

The arrest of the civilians and detaining them in Israel is illegal.

The actual boarding was horrendously executed, which is the reason for the deaths. This is probably an illegal action on the commanders part due to gross incompetence.

The actions of the individual commandos(from the heavily edited IDF clip) I feel, were justified. Had I been in that situation, I would have defended myself. Now, how they managed to kill 9 before getting the situation under control shows a high level of incompetence on the ground commander's part. Although he was working at night, which is probably the reason why it took so long, again this leads back to the original force commanders negligence for carrying out this op at night.

This part is speculation: I think that the commandos were shocked at the fact the took on resistance. They were overly jumpy, and after losing control, basically shot anyone and anything that they perceived as a threat til the situation was fully under their control.

Yitzhak Rabin

@Studiorat: Whats the point there? Is it that they said they would non-violently resist, but used violence?

PirateShampoo

yekahs wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66164618&postcount=23

OK lets discuss your conspiracy means it hasn't been discussed since you posted it.

I agree with you. There is always a percentage that there casualty's in operations of this type.

Yitzhak Rabin

PirateShampoo wrote: »

OK lets discuss your conspiracy means it hasn't been discussed since you posted it.

I agree with you. There is always a percentage that there casualty's in operations of this type.

Thats the problem here I think. There's never any decent discussion unless there are two polar opposites!

I think that the op was unnecessary in the first place, and conducting it as a night op was a deliberate calculation, to allow the killing to occur. This would have been far, far easier to control during a day time op.

Also, I think that the IDF commandos escalated the level of force far too quickly. From the video they released it shows that the first shot they fired was at the crowd. They didn't fire any warning, or containing shots, which could have restored order without death.

Even something as simple as using CS gas to disperse the crowd on the deck, before landing and creating an easily defendable safe zone for the commandos would have prevented death.

I also think its quite telling how the IDF video ends adbruptly as I imagine it would show indiscriminate shooting at the crowd. The fact that 30-50 people were wounded would also point to this fact.

PirateShampoo

I think CS gas would of been useless on a open deck of a moving ship. I think rubber bullets should of been the way to go.

But I'm not sure on what protocols they have in place for having to take live rounds on operations of this type.

My name is URL

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us

Israel should lead investigation into attack on Gaza flotilla, says US

Turkey's demands for international inquiry blocked at meeting of United Nations security council

No surprises there, then.. and I'm sure Israel will conduct a fully transparent investigation and hold someone ultimately responsible for all of this too /s

But no doubt there's no conspiracy in that either.. just good damage limitation :rolleyes:

PirateShampoo

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us



No surprises there, then.. and I'm sure Israel will conduct a fully transparent investigation and hold someone ultimately responsible for all of this too /s

But no doubt there's no conspiracy in that either.. just good damage limitation :rolleyes:

Would you let UK or Germany conduct a investigation on your country?

My name is URL

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Would you let UK or Germany conduct a investigation on your country?

It's not up to me, or you, or us as a nation who conducts the investigation. That's why the UN has charters to deal with these things, although they're obsolete these days, evidently

studiorat

yekahs wrote: »

@Studiorat: Whats the point there? Is it that they said they would non-violently resist, but used violence?

Dunno really, probably just to share the information. It seemed they were expecting trouble though.

I've made a few observations. The blockade of Gaza was sanctioned by the Oslo Accords, at least in Israel's opinion,[1] although it would seem they are all but gone at this stage. The Freedom Flotilla is as much about raising awareness as it is about actually bringing in aid. [2] And I guess they did that alright. If they were solely interested in getting supplies in I wonder why they didn't go to Ashdod?

It would also seem that the Israeli Cabinet didn't ratify the actions and were bypassed in the decision. [3]

I suppose since 5 other boats got through in the past they thought this one would as well. Although given that the Rachael Corrie is experiencing technical difficulties already and the Israeli navy are ready and waiting it doesn't bode well.

[1]Free Gaza letter to Prime minister of NLnds.

[2]http://www.socialist-alliance.org/page.php?page=946

[3]

“Senior ministers [of the Netanyahu cabinet] have been sharply critical of the fact that the decision to seize control of the flotilla to Gaza was made after two meetings of the forum of seven senior ministers but without official deliberation by the inner cabinet, the body that has the authority to approve military actions of this scale.” What this suggests is that the actual decision to conduct the raids in international waters bypassed the Cabinet. (Haaretz.com headlines RSS)

EDIT: If there is a conspiracy maybe point [3] is it...

namloc1980

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Would you let UK or Germany conduct a investigation on your country?

This incident happened in international waters; is it unreasonable to expect an international investigation? I don't think so.

Brown Bomber

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."

Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement said earlier Tuesday that a cargo boat was already on the way to challenge Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip.

A second boat carrying about three dozen passengers was expected to join the first, she added.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

Incidentally, the Rachel Corrie is an Irish ship which left from Dundalk on May 10th. It's cargo was personally inspected by Green Party Senator Mark Dearey

Quote:
On Wednesday, Green Party spokesperson for Foreign Affairs and Defence, Senator Mark Dearey, who has personally inspected the cargo onboard the M.V. Rachel Corrie, echoed the Ambassador’s call stating: “Irish passport holders (must) be treated respectfully and be allowed complete their mission. It is the least we should be insisting on, given the gross abuse of Irish passports by Israeli agents in recent times.” Senator Dearey, who has recently replaced Minister Ciarán Cuffe as spokesperson, was referring to Mossad’s use of five bogus Irish passports when a Hamas official was assassinated in Dubai earlier this year.
http://www.freegaza.org/sv/home/pres...or-mark-dearey

Quote:
“I inspected the cargo on the quay side in Dundalk and am completely satisfied that it is humanitarian aid only.”
http://www.dundalkexaminer.com/2010/...eli-terrorism/

There will be “most serious consequences” should any harm come to Irish citizens involved with the aid flotilla destined for Gaza, Taoiseach Brian Cowen said today.
Both the Taoiseach and Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin called on Israel to allow Irish humanitarian ship, the MV Rachel Corrie , pass through its military blockade of Gaza.


"But I will make this point. If any harm comes to any of our citizens, it will have the most serious consequences.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0601/breaking33.html

bonkey

WE seem to be getting further and further away from discussing a conspiracy, and closer and closer to yet another thread which is dominated by people sniping at each other.

If this trend continues, the thread will be locked

Carra23

Di0genes wrote: »

And this is a conspiracy er how?

Definitions of conspiracy on the Web:

• a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
• a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
• a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose

I think it's safe to say that this act of terrorism is a conspiracy , I doubt it was a spur of the moment thing !

Brown Bomber

mynameisurl

If you still have that link to the law of the sea or whatever it was any chance you could repost? I need to check something in it. Cheers.


Jon Snow from CH4 News grilling Israeli spokesman Mark Regev. I am genuinely worried Israel are trying to ignite a war with Turkey. Watch the last minute if nothing else. They are not backing down and neither are the Turks. http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211844-no-one-should-test-turkeys-patience-pm-erdogan-warns.html

Yitzhak Rabin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Jon Snow from CH4 News grilling Israeli spokesman Mark Regev.

Saw that on television live. I didn't know whether to laugh or be livid or both. That guy Regev is something else. How can he be so blasé after the government he represents attacked a ship in international waters. The ship even had a member of the Knesset on it.

When asked if he would apologise and he smugly replied "for what". What a fukkin dikkhead!

Or smirking when he was asking are you serious. Then when Jon Snow who was obviously getting frustrated said "Of course I'm serious! Don't ask me if I'm serious!" Like a child he just asked him if he was serious again.

My name is URL

Brown Bomber wrote: »

mynameisurl

If you still have that link to the law of the sea or whatever it was any chance you could repost? I need to check something in it. Cheers.

Here you go, though I should say that I was a bit hasty to post that in the first place. It seems that neither Israel or Turkey are signed up to UNCLOS.. so I'm not sure of any of it is relevant in this case

uprising2

Brown Bomber wrote: »

mynameisurl

If you still have that link to the law of the sea or whatever it was any chance you could repost? I need to check something in it. Cheers.


Jon Snow from CH4 News grilling Israeli spokesman Mark Regev. I am genuinely worried Israel are trying to ignite a war with Turkey. Watch the last minute if nothing else. They are not backing down and neither are the Turks. http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211844-no-one-should-test-turkeys-patience-pm-erdogan-warns.html

Thanks for filling us in bomber, I've been out the past few hours and didn't know this, things could get complicated, but something has to give, it simply can't be allowed continue as is, nobody wants war, but I for one want to see change for Gaza quick.


While I'm here bonkey can you tell me why my thread in politics simply vanished, I noticed it vanished earlier just after my reply to somebody asking me to give my opinion, I gave it then the thread vanished, the thread was in the right forum "Politics" and it concerned this, then I get a 14 day ban from politics, your a mod of politics I believe, can you PM me the missing thread, I'd like to reread it and see where I was trolling and abusive.

Yitzhak Rabin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Norman Finkelstein - Israel is a "lunatic state".

Another good interview, which he says he thinks Israel was trying to recreate the raid on Entebbe to show their military prowess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3-yNRLcQuI

Interview starts at about 30secs in

Chimichangas

I think that if this thread is locked down as threatened by the moderator, there might possibly be enough reason to suggest another conspiracy....:eek:

uprising2

Israel concerned next flotilla will be accompanied by Turkish Navy.

On Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister threatened Israel not to test Turkey’s patience.

"Turkey's hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable,” he said, adding “"Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood."

This comment, officials said, could signify a change in Turkish military action in the event that another flotilla is dispatched to the Gaza Strip. One official said that the possibility that Turkey would send navy ships was slim – due to the country’s membership in NATO – but that the possibility was of great concern.

“This is a definite possibility that we need to prepare for,” a senior defense official said on Tuesday.

Navy sources said that the coming ships would be intercepted the same way the flotilla was stopped on Monday morning although it had yet to be decided if the operation would be carried out by Sayetet 13, the Navy’s commando unit.

“We are tracking the ships and are under orders to stop them,” a top Navy officer said.

According to the sources, the Navy, in a future operation will use more force to prevent ships from reaching the Gaza Strip. "We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," one officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

Chimichangas

PirateShampoo wrote: »

No, the Commandos did what any other nations Commandos would of done if they where put in that situation.

I'm not denying that is was the wrong course of action to take, but you cant blame the Commandos.

I would ask you what action you would of taken if you where ordered into that situation but i don't think i would get a honest or realistic answer from you.

Do you think that the israeli military command/cabinet chose the method of using commandos on purpose or by accident?
Are the commandos not supposed to be the IDF elite killing machine?

If so they were just doing their job, their sense of right and wrong would have been drilled out of them years ago. They are just following orders now. I have read about similar things like this in World War history. They had no way of getting off the boat, so they were trapped and had to use overwhelming firepower against people armed with whatever happened to be on the deck, or whatever live firearms the commandos allowed them to take off their person. I read somewhere that some commandos jumped into the sea, I would imagine so they would not have to kill un-firearmed civilians. It was other 'braver' commandos who switched to live rounds. Medals all round Im sure.

Does the israeli military care if innocent victims are killed? Havent they let it happen before?

If a child raises a hand to an israeli military figure, are they not likely to be shot as a stone throwing terrorist? Lucky the philistines didnt have the same attitude...there would have been no David.

Its gotten to the stage that what the IDF do has become indefensible.

The conspiracy?
Its a continuation of earlier conspiracies, land stealing and grabbing, killing first and covering up later, with hearsay, infactual 'facts' and incorrect 'figures'.
It will become more obvious when Israel make some small and insignificant gesture that will be welcomed by international powers as proof of Israels regret over the 'error' of killing 10 people, as happens in a war. An opening of a border crossing for a day perhaps, or something significant that will happen in the future, the very distant future, until a reason is found for it not to happen.
The israeli government, the IDF are the masters of smoke and mirrors. Their supporters are less so, and that is where it falls apart.

I am loathe to say it, but the US couldnt even join the security council in condeming the attack on the boat that left 10 innocents dead, how many innocents and commandos injured?

We are all judged by a higher power. I am confident that fundamentalists of all persuasions wont be so happy when they meet their Maker.

I hope all adults of sound mind and body can make up their own mind, in a 'fair and balanced' way.


and yes, I know what fair and balanced means!
fox doesnt, israel government doesnt, IDF doesnt. maybe in a not too distant century. in a galaxy far far away...

studiorat

Chimichangas wrote: »

I think that if this thread is locked down as threatened by the moderator, there might possibly be enough reason to suggest another conspiracy....:eek:

either that or it's turned into a load of clucking old hens saying I told you so.
The back slapping and mutual gratification is sickening. There's no discussion here, it's just a festival of content scraping and graitutious self justification. Shower of vultures the lot of them...

Mahatma coat

can you elaborate on this Cluckin hen concept please??

bonkey

Alternately, you guys could get back on topic.

No more warnings.

bonkey

Chimichangas wrote: »

I think that if this thread is locked down as threatened by the moderator, there might possibly be enough reason to suggest another conspiracy....:eek:

I see you're new here. Welcome to boards.ie and the CT forum.

May I suggest you take the time to read (or re-read) the charter, and pay close attention to the part which tells you what to do if you have in issue with moderation.

Mahatma coat

OK So back sorta OT

What do people think will happen to the MV Rachel Corrie when it reaches the blockade? From what I have read it seems that the bulk of its cargo is Cement and other building materials which have been banned by Israel.

also why is the ship sailing under a Cambodian flag, surely it would have better off if it had an Irish registration.

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK So back sorta OT

What do people think will happen to the MV Rachel Corrie when it reaches the blockade? From what I have read it seems that the bulk of its cargo is Cement and other building materials which have been banned by Israel.

also why is the ship sailing under a Cambodian flag, surely it would have better off if it had an Irish registration.

I would say it will reach the israeli blockade, and that the israeli might well refuse her entry past the blockade, if that happens and it tries to run the blockade it will be attacked....

Yitzhak Rabin

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK So back sorta OT

What do people think will happen to the MV Rachel Corrie when it reaches the blockade? From what I have read it seems that the bulk of its cargo is Cement and other building materials which have been banned by Israel.

also why is the ship sailing under a Cambodian flag, surely it would have better off if it had an Irish registration.

I would say that it will probably be sabotaged with its propeller being taken out, it will then be towed to Ashdod.

As for the Cambodian thing, I haven't a notion.

cichlid child

What is the ETA at the blockade.

Mahatma coat

I was wonderin, since Egypt opened its border crossing can they not just sail into Gaza via Egyptian Waters, thereby bypassin 'Israeli' Waters??

Chimichangas

bonkey wrote: »

I see you're new here. Welcome to boards.ie and the CT forum.

May I suggest you take the time to read (or re-read) the charter, and pay close attention to the part which tells you what to do if you have in issue with moderation.

Will do. Should have done. I apologise in advance.:o

Chimichangas

Brown bomber,
Maybe I didnt represent my self correctly.

I appreciate the facts you quote, where can i find stuff like that?

The israeli ambassador-i was just affording respect to the official representative of a nation, any nation. I was quoting his words and facts. i think i got my tone wrong.
If I said anything that sounded contradictory, it was meant to.
Commandos who attack are forced to defend?
Bullets Vs Stones=fair and balanced approach?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Chimichangas wrote: »

It is similar to other wanton killing in history yes. Again I apologise but I am confused once more by your statement. Initially you begin by appearing to be critical of the massacre and the IDF for murdering children in Palestine but then go on to describe it in "harsh but fair" terms, like putting down a dog. I mean what could you possibly imagine a "bullet to the head" from a trained solider to a child throwing "stones and pebbles" could ever possibly achieve,? what is it "effective" at`?

its effective in creating hatred and killing and maiming children. over the top? of course it is! Do I agree with such actions? No! does it happen? yes!

?Anybody know whats the breakdown of palestinian children killed by israeli forces Vs israeli children killed by Palestinian forces?
Please include the unborn children too if you chose to reply.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Chimichangas wrote: »

In terms of suffering, Ireland has a comparable history with anyone, yet I don't feel to need to kill civilians in international waters.



And I respect it, honestly I do. But I genuinely feel if you are worried about offending anyone you should be concerned about all peoples, not just a single group.

With respect, I disagree with you on this last part introducing irelands history in, and who i apologise to.
I dont think Irish history is comparable to the recent history of the jews, armenians, people of former yugoslavia, rwanda and many other recent conflicts where people are being killed for religious or ethic backgrounds on a vastly bigger scale.
Similarities? of course, but I just wouldnt like to say they were comparable.
Anyway I think I was more giving my reasons on why the IDF behaves as it does; they lost enough in WWII, they aint going to let any more die, without making it very costly for the other side. Maybe its some of that neocon view on the economics of war??

Also I apologised to the group of people who I was talking about, not to all groups who werent mentioned.

and i apologise to you for not getting my tone right in my original post.

squod

U.S.-TURKEY RELATIONS
U.S.-Turkish friendship dates to the late 18th century and was officially sealed by a treaty in 1830. The present close relationship began with the agreement of July 12, 1947, which implemented the Truman Doctrine. As part of the cooperative effort to further Turkish economic and military self-reliance, the United States has loaned and granted Turkey more than $12.5 billion in economic aid and more than $14 billion in military assistance.

U.S.-Turkish relations focus on areas such as strategic energy cooperation, trade and investment, security ties, regional stability, counterterrorism, and human rights progress. Relations were strained when Turkey refused in March 2003 to allow U.S. troops to deploy through its territory to Iraq in Operation Iraqi Freedom, but regained momentum steadily thereafter and mutual interests remain strong across a wide spectrum of issues.

Oh look, betcha the same people are funding both sides of this conflict Isreal/Turkey. History repeating?

TalkieWalkie

Can't find this on mainstream yet...
Turkish Sources – Israeli Advance Target Assassination List Found on Flotilla

'Turkish sources and media revealed a document which shows that a death list had been prepared in advance by the Israelis, showing names and pictures of people on board of the ships to be murdered, who, according to Israel, were “involved in the International humanitarian aid for Gaza”. According to the Turkish sources, hundreds of Israeli soldiers stormed the blue Turkish ship “Marmara” flotilla and they had copies of the death list. The list included the names of civilians on the fleet who should be killed”. The document was apparently recovered after one of the Israeli soldiers lost it during the piracy act.'

http://www.prisonplanet.com/turkish-sources-israeli-advance-target-assassination-list-found-on-flotilla.html

TalkieWalkie

Israel expects split with Turkey

ISRAEL has evacuated the families of its diplomats in Turkey in anticipation of a severing of diplomatic relations by Ankara.

With anti-Israel sentiment sweeping Turkey, Israeli officials said concern for the security of the families prompted their speedy evacuation yesterday. The diplomatic pullout follows the storming of a Turkish vessel, the Mavi Marmara, off the Gaza coast by Israeli naval commandos and the killing of nine activists, at least four of them Turks.

Israeli diplomats remain in Turkey but the embassy in Ankara and the consulate in Istanbul have been closed.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has taken an increasingly antagonistic line towards Israel as he moves his country closer to ties with Arab countries and Iran, called the killings aboard the ship a "bloody massacre" and said "Israel has shown once again how good it is at killing people".

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

In what is regarded in Jerusalem as a possibly menacing tone, he said: "No one should test Turkey's patience. Turkey's hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable."

There is some concern in Israel that Mr Erdogan might order Turkish warships to accompany future convoys bringing aid to the Gaza Strip.

Israel and Turkey have enjoyed close relations for years, jointly conducting military exercises and engaging in billions of dollars of trade. Politically, the relationship has been important to Israel because Turkey is a Muslim country. It was considered important by Turkey because Israel was seen as a channel to the West.

Israel is bracing for the arrival of two more vessels in the coming days seeking to break its naval blockade of Gaza.

The chairman of the Knesset foreign affairs and defence committee, Tzahi Hanegbi, said yesterday the vessels would be invited to enter Ashdod Port in southern Israel so their cargoes could be examined to ensure they contained no materials that could be used by Hamas for military purposes. The cargoes would then be transported by truck to the Gaza Strip.

"We must not deviate an iota from our (blockade) policy," he said. Asked about the possibility of Turkish military escorts for future convoys, he said: "I don't think this . . . is being planned."

A senior Israeli naval officer said the vessels would be seized if they did not agree to dock in Ashdod.

One of the two vessels is the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie, named after a peace activist killed in Gaza in a confrontation with Israeli forces. Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said if any harm came to Irish citizens on the

vessel as a result of Israeli action, it would have "the most serious consequences".

Washington announced yesterday its support for a transparent investigation of the entire affair.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/israel-expects-split-with-turkey/story-e6frg6so-1225874715502

ultain

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Can't find this on mainstream yet...
Turkish Sources – Israeli Advance Target Assassination List Found on Flotilla


http://www.prisonplanet.com/turkish-sources-israeli-advance-target-assassination-list-found-on-flotilla.html

Deathlist?ldroped on board, that's a wee bit far fetched is it not..movie coming soon

Di0genes

ultain wrote: »

Deathlist?ldroped on board, that's a wee bit far fetched is it not..movie coming soon

The source is prison planet. So yes it is suspect.

Would elite assassins need cheat sheets?

ultain

Would elite assassins need cheat sheets?[/QUOTE]

Brown Bomber

Chimichangas wrote: »

Brown bomber,
Maybe I didnt represent my self correctly.

My mistake I am sure, I was probably over-emotional, I was and am deeply angered and saddened by the massacre. Probably clouding my judgement to be frank.

Chimichangas wrote: »

I appreciate the facts you quote, where can i find stuff like that?

Two were UN reports and the other links were from Human Rights groups. One was definitely Israeli organisation B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org/English/ and I can't remember but I think the other was either Human Rights Watch http://www.hrw.org/ or Amnesty International http://www.amnesty.org/

Here is a selection links to Human Rights groups connected to the middle east
http://www.cdp-hrc.uottawa.ca/eng/doc/inter-web/hrvint_e.php#middle_east

Otherwise I'd reccommend reading Norman Finkelstein http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ and Naom Chomsky http://www.chomsky.info/. Who incidentally are both Jewish.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The israeli ambassador-i was just affording respect to the official representative of a nation, any nation. I was quoting his words and facts. i think i got my tone wrong.
If I said anything that sounded contradictory, it was meant to.
Commandos who attack are forced to defend?
Bullets Vs Stones=fair and balanced approach?

its effective in creating hatred and killing and maiming children. over the top? of course it is! Do I agree with such actions? No! does it happen? yes!

Apologies for my misunderstanding, I am very easily confused

Chimichangas wrote: »

?Anybody know whats the breakdown of palestinian children killed by israeli forces Vs israeli children killed by Palestinian forces?
Please include the unborn children too if you chose to reply.

At a guess I would say there are no official statistics on pregnant women losing their babies through murder of the mother or any other means .by the IDF or as a direct consequence of the illegal siege imposed by Israel.

This should give you some idea of the mentality of the IDF and unborn non-Jewish children. It was designed and worn by an IDF sniper unit openly. It is an pregnant woman in the crosshairs with the target focused on her pregnant stomach which the tagline "One Shot Two Kills"




Here are the pre-Castlead figures you asked for.

Additional data (included in previous table)

Occupied Territories

Israel

Gaza Strip West Bank Total

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces

635 317 952 3

Israeli minors killed by Palestinians

4 35 39 84Source: http://www.cdp-hrc.uottawa.ca/eng/doc/inter-web/hrvint_e.php#middle_east

Additionaly there were hundreds of Gazan children murdered during Operation Castlead.

This report from DCI goes into some detail on children who were murderd in just 2 weeks during Castlead. Including the 5 sisters, all under 18 who died instantly in their sleep when Israel shelled their shelter.
http://www.defenceforchildren.org/attachments/089_child%20fatalities-written-statement.pdf

On that particular humanitarian site defenceforchildren.org I came across this report, from just last week which should give you further evidence about what the IDF are actually all about.

International Human Rights Group accuses IDF of pedastry and threatening to rape Palestinian minors.

Ramallah, 18 May 2010] – On 18 May 2010, DCI-Palestine submitted 14 cases to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture for investigation. The submission relates to the sexual assault, or threat of sexual assault, of Palestinian children at the hands of Israeli soldiers, interogators and police between January 2009 and April 2010. The ages of the children range from 13 to 16 years.

DCI-Palestine is becoming increasingly alarmed at reports contained in sworn affidavits received from children that they are being subjected to sexual assault, or threat of sexual assault, in order to obtain confessions.

DCI-Palestine has reviewed 100 sworn affidavits collected from children in 2009, and in four percent of cases, children report being sexually assaulted, whilst in 12 percent of cases, the children report being threatened with sexual assault. The sexual assault and threats of sexual assault documented by DCI-Palestine include grabbing boys by the testicles until they confess and threatening boys as young as 13 years with rape unless they confess to throwing stones at Israeli settler vehicles in the occupied West Bank. DCI-Palestine suspects that these figures may understate the extent of the problem.

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1476&CategoryId=1

Chimichangas wrote: »

With respect, I disagree with you on this last part introducing irelands history in, and who i apologise to.
I dont think Irish history is comparable to the recent history of the jews, armenians, people of former yugoslavia, rwanda and many other recent conflicts where people are being killed for religious or ethic backgrounds on a vastly bigger scale.

I can accept that, my point is that every state has a history.

Chimichangas wrote: »

Similarities? of course, but I just wouldnt like to say they were comparable.
Anyway I think I was more giving my reasons on why the IDF behaves as it does; they lost enough in WWII, they aint going to let any more die, without making it very costly for the other side. Maybe its some of that neocon view on the economics of war??

My individual thoughts on this is that indivual Jews lost in WWII but eastern european Zionists prevailed, they got their Jewish homeland but don't honour the reperations to the survivors. From Germany as part of the ongoing reperation payments they have recently received a fleet of submarines worth hundreds of millions of dollars each so they can wage more wars of aggression, think of the good that money could have done for the quality of life of the aging survivors. Norman Finkelstein's, (who I linked to above) mother and father were both survivors of the Nazi concentration camps and he essentially had both sides of his family wiped out in the holocaust.

You see I don't buy that Israel is in a paranoid frenzy about their security.

Case in point the massacre on the Turkish ship and their arrogant "untouchable" attitude after. They are their own worst enemy and they are in danger of the world turning against them for their barbaric actions and constant human rights abuses. As soon as people can realise that it is possible to be pro-israel and anti-human right violations there will be sweeping changes. I mean, if they are so concerned about security why not along with virtually ever state in the world bar the US commit to making the Middle East a nuclear free zone? But no, they keep the nukes for "The Samson Option" whereby they take down the world with them and launch the full range of nuclear weapons (200-400 most estimates) on the rest of the world if they are critically threatened. They have that option to denuclearise the region, they refuse, they are not interested in preservation they are interested in regional domination along religous and ethnic lines. I'm getting old, just realised I forgot what my point was:D:confused

Chimichangas wrote: »

Also I apologised to the group of people who I was talking about, not to all groups who werent mentioned.

Understandable. I make no apologies for murdrers though.

Chimichangas wrote: »

and i apologise to you for not getting my tone right in my original post.

No need, my fault.

dyasny

what a bunch of blockheaded bull**** this entire thread is... just watch the filming of the incident on youtube, you'll see who attacked who.

while you're at it, check out the amount of aid Israel sends into the PA daily, and come visit Gaza, to see how the blockade makes the people there "suffer" - after a belch or two, they'll finish their kebab and tell you how badly they starve.

This entire affair is a provocation against Israel, blatant and totally untrue. And it is really sad to see how people buy into this bull****, just because it's easier to believe this crap and play the "good guy", than find out the truth.

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

what a bunch of blockheaded bull**** this entire thread is... just watch the filming of the incident on youtube, you'll see who attacked who.

while you're at it, check out the amount of aid Israel sends into the PA daily, and come visit Gaza, to see how the blockade makes the people there "suffer" - after a belch or two, they'll finish their kebab and tell you how badly they starve.

This entire affair is a provocation against Israel, blatant and totally untrue. And it is really sad to see how people buy into this bull****, just because it's easier to believe this crap and play the "good guy", than find out the truth.

Please read the forum charter before posting to this forum again.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This should give you some idea of the mentality of the IDF and unborn non-Jewish children. It was designed and worn by an IDF sniper unit openly. It is an pregnant woman in the crosshairs with the target focused on her pregnant stomach which the tagline "One Shot Two Kills"




.

it probably just satire.. like your sig :rolleyes:

dyasny

hey, no problem, here's a conspiracy theory:

the region becomes too quiet, after the winters' operation that quelled down hamas. Oil prices started dropping, so the sheikhs had to do something to raise the tension in the area again.

Israel is the most common and easiest target, because taking a swing at anyone else in the area means gaining an enemy, while Israel is everyone's enemy anyway.

So out sails a "peace" flotilla, with armed and trained terrorists on board, but armed with clubs, knives and slingshots, because in the eyes of the world, those don't compare to handguns. The world never was attacked by a mob armed with those of course.

Anyhow, the provocation works, everyone is shouting, Turkey is threatening war, Iran spits in all directions, tensions rise, oil prices rise, sheikhs get richer.

funny thing is - this is all too true.

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

So out sails a "peace" flotilla, with armed and trained terrorists on board, but armed with clubs, knives and slingshots, because in the eyes of the world, those don't compare to handguns.

A flotilla who's plan required the Israeli's to take a specific response against them, and to implement said response incompetently...and then resort to deadly violence as a second reaction.

Sounds like an incredibly dumb plan to me....about as dumb as it required the Israeli's to be.

Brown Bomber

dyasny wrote: »

Israel is the most common and easiest target,

Im case you missed it ISREAL WASN'T THE TARGET. The aid workers had no interest in Israel. They were destined for Gaza, The only reason the ended up in Israel is because they were kidnapped on the high seas by pirates.

And easiest target? Thats a laugh. How exactly does a civilian aid convoy target a military.?

dyasny wrote: »

because taking a swing at anyone else in the area means gaining an enemy, while Israel is everyone's enemy anyway. .

How is delivering for example, wheelchairs to people crippled by your the Israeli government taking a swing at anyone?

And Israel is not "everyones enemy" Israel and Turkey were allies ffs.

dyasny wrote: »

So out sails a "peace" flotilla, with armed and trained terrorists on board, but armed with clubs, knives and slingshots, because in the eyes of the world, those don't compare to handguns.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Really? I Wonder why that is???

Hey, maybe your right...Maybe Israel doesn't need the billions in free US aid every year then?
The world never was attacked by a mob armed with those of course.

dyasny wrote: »

Anyhow, the provocation works, everyone is shouting, Turkey is threatening war, Iran spits in all directions, tensions rise, oil prices rise, sheikhs get richer.

funny thing is - this is all too true.

Turkey is threatening war? Israel's actions was an act of war on Turkey.

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

it probably just satire.. like your sig :rolleyes:

Can't believe you are defending racially motivated murder against a mother and unborn child just to get at me. Think about what you are doing.

dyasny

bonkey wrote: »

A flotilla who's plan required the Israeli's to take a specific response against them, and to implement said response incompetently...and then resort to deadly violence as a second reaction.

Sounds like an incredibly dumb plan to me....about as dumb as it required the Israeli's to be.

if you watch the screencasts, you'll see white flags flown while the soldiers were attacked.
the other 5 ships did not resist at all.

Anyhow, if riot control was expected, another unit would have been used