Israel Kills 10 aid workers

dyasny

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Im case you missed it ISREAL WASN'T THE TARGET.

oh, no? so the flotilla didn't reach its objectives?

The aid workers had no interest in Israel. They were destined for Gaza, The only reason the ended up in Israel is because they were kidnapped on the high seas by pirates.

aid workers armed with clubs and knives? that's not even funny.
the ships were headed for a marine blockade zone, of course they would be stopped, that was the whole point

And easiest target? Thats a laugh. How exactly does a civilian aid convoy target a military.?

by achieving exactly what you see here and everywhere else - a stir in public opinion. especially of those unable to think beyond what the media feeds them

How is delivering for example, wheelchairs to people crippled by your the Israeli government taking a swing at anyone?

read my post again, ok? carefully this time.

And Israel is not "everyones enemy" Israel and Turkey were allies ffs.

until the recent Turk government changes. the islamists rule there now.

Really? I Wonder why that is???

probably because you have no clue

Hey, maybe your right...Maybe Israel doesn't need the billions in free US aid every year then?

free? seriously? go to Israel, spend a few years there, and you'll have a grip on the reality there. there is no free aid, Israel pays back for everything, with interest.

Turkey is threatening war? Israel's actions was an act of war on Turkey.

I wonder what would Turkey have done, if Israel sent out aid ships to help the Kurds. Or the Armenians, back in the day.

My name is URL

dyasny wrote: »

aid workers armed with clubs and knives? that's not even funny

Damn right.. a boat carrying 500+ people should have neither knives for cutting food nor tools for fixing ship. They probably even had duct tape to silence the dissenters .. the dirty rotten scumbags that the Aid workers are!

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

if you watch the screencasts, you'll see white flags flown while the soldiers were attacked.
the other 5 ships did not resist at all.

And this makes the evil terrorists plan any less incredibly dumb....how?
Even worse....how does it make the Israeli's any less incredibly dumb for falling for it? You're basically saying they were told which was the only ship which hadn't surrendered....and so were completely taken by surprise by it not having surrendered.

Anyhow, if riot control was expected, another unit would have been used

You've lost me. The Israeli's sent in "shoot to kill" troops rather then crowd-control troops because.....they weren't expecting to need to control a riotous crowd???? Unless they were expecting to go in and kill some people, this doesn't appear to be very logical.

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

o
probably because you have no clue

Don't make this personal.

dyasny

My name is URL wrote: »

Damn right.. a boat carrying 500+ people should have neither knives for cutting food nor tools for fixing ship. They probably even had duct tape to silence the dissenters .. the dirty rotten scumbags that the Aid workers are!

right, so the soldiers that came onboard to inspect the ship that wouldn't comply with the demands to leave a restricted area were not attacked by those "tools"? and how exactly is a slingshot a tool? or a metal rod? why did they have gas masks handy?

do you really think they weren't prepared and waiting for a boarding? have you watched the security cam footage from the ship?

dyasny

bonkey wrote: »

And this makes the evil terrorists plan any less incredibly dumb....how?

dumb? it worked!
you're thinking like a European, or an American, or an Israeli really - thinking nobody is crazy enough to send people out to their death just to organise a media scandal. The organizers of this flotilla are the same people who organized suicide bombings. They do not think like a normal civilized person.

Even worse....how does it make the Israeli's any less incredibly dumb for falling for it? You're basically saying they were told which was the only ship which hadn't surrendered....and so were completely taken by surprise by it not having surrendered.

I'm not saying it wasn't dumb to fall for it. In Israel a lot of shouts are raised as to why the ship wasn't simply incapacitated, so it would just float away elsewhere, without having to board it.

You've lost me. The Israeli's sent in "shoot to kill" troops rather then crowd-control troops because.....they weren't expecting to need to control a riotous crowd????

when you declare you're a pacifist and a peace activist, why should anyone expect you to be planning to raise a riot?

Unless they were expecting to go in and kill some people, this doesn't appear to be very logical.

that unit is the marines' equivalent. they are the ones supposed to handle marine missions. marine missions can be anything, including rescue missions, btw. but crowd control, at sea? whom would they train on, dolphins?

Brown Bomber

dyasny wrote: »

oh, no? so the flotilla didn't reach its objectives?

Clearly not.

dyasny wrote: »

aid workers armed with clubs and knives? that's not even funny.
the ships were headed for a marine blockade zone, of course they would be stopped, that was the whole point

"Stopped"??? Your definiton of "stopped" is to send an elite unit of commandos onto a civilian aid ship in international waters and open fire indiscrimanately killing ten and wounding 60??? And then illegally kidnap them? Think you need a new hebrew-english dictionary.

And according to you Al-Qaeda has some serious competition on their hands:rolleyes:...Someone should contact interpol! quick!!!. This international brigade have recruited nobel laureates, former US ambassors, sitting Knesset members, mothers, children, babies, elderly men and women, even 80-year-old holocaust survivors:eek: They are known to travel to impoverished people bringing toys and wheelchairs. When fired upon they are know to be armed and not-very dangerous. Their weapon of choice is the clenched fist and chairs.

This fabrication (like almost everything you have posted) of aid workers as terrorists is one of the most disgusting elements of the whole savage affair.

Yitzhak Rabin

dyasny wrote: »

comply with the demands to leave a restricted area

I forgot that international waters was a restricted area controlled by Israel.

Yitzhak Rabin

dyasny wrote: »

that unit is the marines' equivalent. they are the ones supposed to handle marine missions. marine missions can be anything, including rescue missions, btw. but crowd control, at sea? whom would they train on, dolphins?

Or maybe a mock up ship deck on land, like every other marine unit.

Are you trolling, seriously?

My name is URL

dyasny wrote: »

right, so the soldiers that came onboard to inspect the ship that wouldn't comply with the demands to leave a restricted area were not attacked by those "tools"? and how exactly is a slingshot a tool? or a metal rod? why did they have gas masks handy?

do you really think they weren't prepared and waiting for a boarding? have you watched the security cam footage from the ship?

Yes, I've watched the videos of the incident. None of them are in any way conclusive as to what happened in the lead-up to the raid or the shooting dead of civilians.

Why would they not have gas masks? There's many things that could go wrong on a ship in which gas masks would be needed.. if the exhaust system fails you're not going to last long in the engine room without a gas mask.. or if pirates attack your boat they could use gaseous grenades.. I'd like to have masks on board should such a thing happen.. and slingshots are widely used for fishing, something else that regularly takes place on boats

dyasny wrote: »

dumb? it worked!
you're thinking like a European, or an American, or an Israeli really - thinking nobody is crazy enough to send people out to their death just to organise a media scandal. The organizers of this flotilla are the same people who organized suicide bombings. They do not think like a normal civilized person.

And Israel are the same nation that organised the forgery of passports in order to carry out assassinations.. many would call that state terrorism, I wouldn't personally, but I wouldn't call those on the flotilla suicide bombers either

dyasny

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Clearly not.

The flotilla leaders clearly stated their objective was to breach the blockade. Not to deliver aid.
they did not breach the blockade, but they got the attention the wanted.

"Stopped"??? Your definiton of "stopped" is to send an elite unit of commandos onto a civilian aid ship in international waters and open fire indiscrimanately killing ten and wounding 60??? And then illegally kidnap them?

How is it worse than your definition of "peace workers" - a bunch of terrorists, armed, and attacking soldiers, there to inspect the ship?

Think you need a new hebrew-english dictionary.

getting personal, are we?

And according to you Al-Qaeda has some serious competition on their hands:rolleyes:...Someone should contact interpol! quick!!!. This international brigade have recruited nobel laureates, former US ambassors, sitting Knesset members, mothers, children, babies, elderly men and women, even 80-year-old holocaust survivors:eek:

LOL! seriously, check the names of the people on those ships - none has a clean reputation.

They are known to travel to impoverished people

Impoverished? when did you last visit Gaza? or when was the last time you gave away 60% of your salary in taxes, because your government send aid, water, gas and food to those people daily?

bringing toys and wheelchairs.

yeah, I've seen those used

When fired upon they are know to be armed and not-very dangerous. Their weapon of choice is the clenched fist and chairs.

that's what YOU say. The soldiers opened fire in self defence, after several of them were severely wounded and were about to be lynched.

This fabrication (like almost everything you have posted) of aid workers as terrorists is one of the most disgusting elements of the whole savage affair.

the disgusting fact here is that while Israel will get through this mess, it will only aid those who want to keep the war and killing from stopping.
And by condemning Israel, or rather by refusing to even consider an alternative point of view, you are keeping the war from ending.

dyasny

My name is URL wrote: »

Yes, I've watched the videos of the incident. None of them are in any way conclusive as to what happened in the lead-up to the raid or the shooting dead of civilians.

a murderous mob is hardly civilians.

Why would they not have gas masks? There's many things that could go wrong on a ship in which gas masks would be needed.. if the exhaust system fails you're not going to last long in the engine room without a gas mask.. or if pirates attack your boat they could use gaseous grenades.. I'd like to have masks on board should such a thing happen..

of course, and carrying knives around is normal, even if you use them to attack people. calling yourself a peace activist is even more normal after that. so yeah, a guy with a club and a knife, wearing a gas mask, is definitely something out of daily maritime life. you know, woke up, set the sails, fixed the bom-stock-bramsel, took off the gas mask to brush teeth, decided I'll go around with club number 3 this fine day...

and slingshots are widely used for fishing, something else that regularly takes place on boats

riiiight

And Israel are the same nation that organised the forgery of passports in order to carry out assassinations.. many would call that state terrorism, I wouldn't personally, but I wouldn't call those on the flotilla suicide bombers either

not suicide bombers, but sent in with the intention of showing their blood spilled in the news

dyasny

yekahs wrote: »

I forgot that international waters was a restricted area controlled by Israel.

probably the same way you forgot a murderous mob is not exactly the definition of "peace activists"

Or maybe a mock up ship deck on land, like every other marine unit.

where have you seen a marine unit trained in crowd control?

Are you trolling, seriously?

not really, I'm presenting a point of view opposite the (what seems like) everyone else's here.
are you?

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

dumb? it worked!

Your hypothesis involves terrorists with an incredibly dumb plan, who's only hope of success is that Israel is just as dumb.

The organizers of this flotilla are the same people who organized suicide bombings. They do not think like a normal civilized person.

You've claimed that the people killed were trained terrorists, and now that the organisers are knowing sponsors of terrorism.

Have you a shred of evidence?

I'm not saying it wasn't dumb to fall for it.

So then you agree that it was a plan which relied on Israel being dumb.

How, exactly, do you see a plan which requires the target to be dumb as a clever plan?

"Hey guys...I know...lets send a large number of trained terrorists on a mission which will fail if the target don't act like morons. Genius, eh!"

when you declare you're a pacifist and a peace activist, why should anyone expect you to be planning to raise a riot?

I would be of the opinion that mounting an assault, using soldiers armed with crowd-control non-lethal weapons and conventional weaponry suggests that someone at least considered the possibility that there might be more then open arms welcoming them.

I'm interested, though, to hear your logic as to why you would mount an assault with soldiers armed in this fashion on only one of six ships?

that unit is the marines' equivalent. they are the ones supposed to handle marine missions. marine missions can be anything, including rescue missions, btw. but crowd control, at sea? whom would they train on, dolphins?

Indeed. Just like non-marine units train on cows, as its the only to simulate crowds on land.

Yitzhak Rabin

dyasny wrote: »

probably the same way you forgot a murderous mob is not exactly the definition of "peace activists"

I'm sure they were quite docile until commandos arrived down in the dead of the night in international waters.

where have you seen a marine unit trained in crowd control?

Haulbowline in Cobh co. Cork, and DFTC, Curragh co. Kildare.


I am also an instructor in Public Order Training. Only on land based scenarios, which includes prisons, which would have very similar enclosed spaces, and angry improptu violence.

not really, I'm presenting a point of view opposite the (what seems like) everyone else's here.
are you?

It just seems to me that your views are so extreme, to the point that if you are serious, I would think you are deluded.

I have acknowledged in a previous post that if I was an individual commando in that situation I would have feared for my life and defended it.

That does not excuse:
1. Boarding the ship instead of taking out the rudder, and towing it
2. Attacking in International Waters
3. Attacking in the dead of night
4. The absolutely incompetent and haphazard way in which the boarding was carried out
Then after the action
5. Kidnapping the victims
6. Spinning nonsense about the activists being terrorists
7. Describing knives and other building materials as "sophisticated weaponry"(Israeli deputy ambassador)
8. Smirking and laughing about the incident on live TV (Regev, Israeli govt. spokesperson)

Thats just off the top of my head.

I know Israel is in a difficult region. I know it faces threats. I defend her actions on a regular basis. However this incident taken in isolation is tantamount to piracy and murder, and Israels actions after the event speak volumes of its complete arrogance as of late.

dyasny

bonkey wrote: »

Your hypothesis involves terrorists with an incredibly dumb plan, who's only hope of success is that Israel is just as dumb.

what exactly is so dumb in this plan?
it's a win-win situation for them:
1. sail out, reach gaza, profit!
2. sail out, get stopped, start screaming in the news, profit!

You've claimed that the people killed were trained terrorists, and now that the organisers are knowing sponsors of terrorism.
Have you a shred of evidence?

of course. check the names of the more known people involved in this pallywood show, and their previous deeds.
then check the profile of IHH, the organization that organized the Turkish (dominant) part of the flotilla.
Then read up on what hamas is, what and how they do, and what are their goals and motos.

So then you agree that it was a plan which relied on Israel being dumb.

The plan relied on Israel taking SOME action, no matter what the action would have been, it would be condemned, and the plan would work. Borading the ship, IMO wasn't the best plan.

I would be of the opinion that mounting an assault, using soldiers armed with crowd-control non-lethal weapons and conventional weaponry suggests that someone at least considered the possibility that there might be more then open arms welcoming them.

of course. and the conventional weapons were used, eventually, when 6 or 7 soldiers were down.

I'm interested, though, to hear your logic as to why you would mount an assault with soldiers armed in this fashion on only one of six ships?

all ships got boarded in fact. only one fought back. on all other ships, nobody was even scratched.

Indeed. Just like non-marine units train on cows, as its the only to simulate crowds on land.

I guess you know about crowd control training more than I do.

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

probably the same way you forgot a murderous mob is not exactly the definition of "peace activists"

If you check, I think you'll find that "international waters" is a clearly-defined legal concept, where "peace activist" is a label of convenience.

where have you seen a marine unit trained in crowd control?

Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it? You send a marine unit in to do what marine units do. 10 people ended up dead.

On one hand, you want us to believe that this was a deliberate plan by the slain to get themselves killed....oh, and that they were trained terrorists (for some reason I can't yet divine).

On the other hand, you want us to believe that you send in people to do the job you expect to need to do....and Israel sent in professional soldiers who are trained to kill people.

Brown Bomber

dyasny wrote: »

The flotilla leaders clearly stated their objective was to breach the blockade. Not to deliver aid.
they did not breach the blockade, but they got the attention the wanted.

Which is why they send a fleet of gunships instead of cargo ships filled with aid.

dyasny wrote: »

Oh no wait, they did send cargo ships...



How is it worse than your definition of "peace workers" - a bunch of terrorists, armed, and attacking soldiers, there to inspect the ship?

dyasny wrote: »

That is probaby the single most dishonest interpretation of an even I have ever seen.

It was a bunch of Israeli terrorists, armed and attacking civilians actually.

dyasny wrote: »

LOL! seriously, check the names of the people on those ships - none has a clean reputation.

More disgusting lies

dyasny wrote: »

Impoverished?.

Yes. Impoverished according to the UN and Amnesty, HRW, B'Tselem and all reports from human right organisations I have ever seen.

dyasny wrote: »

when did you last visit Gaza?

Is it possible to visit Gaza? No. Why? Because it is an open-air prison.

dyasny wrote: »

or when was the last time you gave away 60% of your salary in taxes, because your government send aid, water, gas and food to those people daily?

Oh so you want to trap them like animals, destroy every possible means of food production and then not give them any form of nutrition. Israel even guns down fishermen who try to fish in Gaza.

This is what Dov Weissglass (Ehud Barak's chief-of-staff) was referring to when he cynically decribed the illegal siege as "putting Gaza on a diet".

You have it wrong anyway. You don't send food, water and gas from Palestinian you steal food, water and gas from them along with their land.

Israel is the sole reason the flotilla was and is necessary.

dyasny wrote: »

Tthat's what YOU say.The soldiers opened fire in self defence, after several of them were severely wounded and were about to be lynched.

"lynched", "lynched", "lynched", "lynched", why is it all these Hasbara writers use the same terminology as each other? It is like they are all reading from the same guidebook.

I guess you missed when your very own senate member who was on the Turkish boat revealed that the Israeli navy had begun firing five minutes before coming onto the ship.?

dyasny wrote: »

the disgusting fact here is that while Israel will get through this mess, it will only aid those who want to keep the war and killing from stopping.
And by condemning Israel, or rather by refusing to even consider an alternative point of view, you are keeping the war from ending.

What war are you talking about?

Israel's war on a civilian population in Gaza were they killed hundreds of civilians less than two years ago? The Lebanon attack were they killed hundreds of civilians just 4 years ago? The one they are instigating every day with Iran?

dyasny

yekahs wrote: »

I'm sure they were quite docile until commandos arrived down in the dead of the night in international waters.

and of course attacking armed troops is a very smart thing to do, definitely not something that would get you shot
One more thing - nowhere does it say that the flotilla personnel thought the Israelis were pirates and tried to defend themselves.

It just seems to me that your views are so extreme, to the point that if you are serious, I would think you are deluded.

I am absolutely serious. and pretty well informed as well. Only difference being - my bias is not the same as yours. Possibly because I have seen Israel and Gaza both.

I have acknowledged in a previous post that if I was an individual commando in that situation I would have feared for my life and defended it.

this is the first sane thing I've read on here today

1. Boarding the ship instead of taking out the rudder, and towing it

how exactly do you imagine that?

2. Attacking in International Waters

Inspecting a vessel bound for an enemy territory for weapons is not an attack.

3. Attacking in the dead of night

should they have waited until the nice terrorists would have finished their morning coffee?

4. The absolutely incompetent and haphazard way in which the boarding was carried out

agreed.

5. Kidnapping the victims

kidnapping is done for ransom, or pressure application, like the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, who is being held by hamas for over 3 years now. With no red cross access, or any news at all. He is probably being tortured daily.
the "victims" in question have all been sent home already.

6. Spinning nonsense about the activists being terrorists

nonsense only according to you. do you have proof they are not?

7. Describing knives and other building materials as "sophisticated weaponry"(Israeli deputy ambassador)

sophisticated? I wouldn't say so. used against the soldiers? definitely

8. Smirking and laughing about the incident on live TV (Regev, Israeli govt. spokesperson)

I've not seen him smirk. But while you're watching reactions, try to categorise the riots worldwide, are those peaceful?

I know Israel is in a difficult region. I know it faces threats. I defend her actions on a regular basis. However this incident taken in isolation is tantamount to piracy and murder, and Israels actions after the event speak volumes of its complete arrogance as of late.

there is nothing pirate like in preventing weapons from reaching the shores of an enclave that regularly bombs civilians, and whose entire reason for existence is the destruction of Israel.

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

what exactly is so dumb in this plan?
it's a win-win situation for them:
1. sail out, reach gaza, profit!
2. sail out, get stopped, start screaming in the news, profit!

Ahhhh...now I see. They sent trained terrorists on a mission whereby they might be able to get themselves killed, might be able to just get some good press, or might be able to do some humanitarian good.

Fiendish.

of course. check the names of the more known people involved in this pallywood show, and their previous deeds.
then check the profile of IHH, the organization that organized the Turkish (dominant) part of the flotilla.
Then read up on what hamas is, what and how they do, and what are their goals and motos.

I see.

You make out that this information is as plan as day to be found....and yet argue that Israel shouldn't have been expecting any trouble on the ship.

This makes no sense to me.

The plan relied on Israel taking SOME action, no matter what the action would have been, it would be condemned, and the plan would work.

This would, of course, be true, even if we assumed the dead weren't terrorists, and that the organisers were just cynical manopulators who didn't care about the lives of those on board the ships.

of course. and the conventional weapons were used, eventually, when 6 or 7 soldiers were down.

Well, at least you've moved from suggesting that the Israeli forces had no reason to expect anything but peaceful passengers, to accepting that they had reason to believe there was a need to send in people with the ability to scale from crowd control to killing people.

Unfortunately, you've also said they're not trained in crowd control.In effect, this means that they can scale from handling peaceful passengers .... to killing people.

I guess you know about crowd control training more than I do.

I know that they don't train on dolphins, any more then they train on cows. If thats more then you know, then fair enough.

dyasny

bonkey wrote: »

If you check, I think you'll find that "international waters" is a clearly-defined legal concept, where "peace activist" is a label of convenience.

same as a sea blockade, which is totally legal in every possible aspect

Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it? You send a marine unit in to do what marine units do. 10 people ended up dead.

would they end up dead if they had not resisted?

On one hand, you want us to believe that this was a deliberate plan by the slain to get themselves killed....oh, and that they were trained terrorists (for some reason I can't yet divine).

leaving sarcasm aside, do you REALLY not see what I'm getting at here?

On the other hand, you want us to believe that you send in people to do the job you expect to need to do....and Israel sent in professional soldiers who are trained to kill people.

surprise! soldiers are trained to kill, that's part of the job. in this case, it was the only way to keep themselves alive, for those soldiers. did you expect them to lay down and die?

Yitzhak Rabin

dyasny wrote: »

Either seriously misinformed nonsense or outright trolling

Right mate, I've had enough of this. Engaging in discourse with you is a waste of time.

dyasny

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Which is why they send a fleet of gunships instead of cargo ships filled with aid.

fleet of gunships? that was the coast guard.

dyasny wrote: »

That is probaby the single most dishonest interpretation of an even I have ever seen.

It was a bunch of Israeli terrorists, armed and attacking civilians actually.

let me quote you on this one

More disgusting lies

Yes. Impoverished according to the UN and Amnesty, HRW, B'Tselem and all reports from human right organisations I have ever seen.

have you ever seen Gaza though? been there?

Is it possible to visit Gaza? No. Why? Because it is an open-air prison.

this is bull. you are simply repeating what you heard on tv, without actually knowing anything yourself.

Oh so you want to trap them like animals, destroy every possible means of food production and then not give them any form of nutrition. Israel even guns down fishermen who try to fish in Gaza.

more lies. they are fed on Israel's account, food, water, gas, EVERYTHING comes from Israel.

This is what Dov Weissglass (Ehud Barak's chief-of-staff) was referring to when he cynically decribed the illegal siege as "putting Gaza on a diet".

are you sure you haven't dreamt this up, or seen it on al jazeera?

You have it wrong anyway. You don't send food, water and gas from Palestinian you steal food, water and gas from them along with their land.

and who decides whose land is where? you? them?

"lynched", "lynched", "lynched", "lynched", why is it all these Hasbara writers use the same terminology as each other? It is like they are all reading from the same guidebook.

"stolen land" stolen land" "stolen land" , why is it all these brainwashed propalestinian writers use the same terminology as each other? It is like they are all reading from the same guidebook

I guess you missed when your very own senate member who was on the Turkish boat revealed that the Israeli navy had begun firing five minutes before coming onto the ship.?

the same senate member who claims Israel has no right to exist, right? a VERY reliable source.
The fact that such a person is allowed to sit in the senate, should tell you Israel is a truly democratic country, the ONLY one in the entire region

Israel's war on a civilian population in Gaza were they killed hundreds of civilians less than two years ago?

after how many were killed in mortar and rocket attacks on civilian Israeli cities?

The Lebanon attack were they killed hundreds of civilians just 4 years ago?

After the lebanese crossed the border, killed several border patrol soldiers and kidnapped a few more? Israel should have just ignored that of course.

The one they are instigating every day with Iran?

have you ever heard Israel saying Iran should be wiped from the face of the earth? I have definitely heard the reverse too many times to mention

dyasny

yekahs wrote: »

Right mate, I've had enough of this. Engaging in discourse with you is a waste of time.

nothing personal, but there is nothing you can say to move me, until you spend a few years in gaza, and see everything for yourself. then a few years more in Israel, just to make sure the opinion sticks.

bonkey

dyasny wrote: »

same as a sea blockade, which is totally legal in every possible aspect

This has been discussed at length on the Politics forum.

Sea blockades are not totally legal in every possible aspect. They are, in fact, quite rigidly defined.

would they end up dead if they had not resisted?

If someone breaks into my house, I struggle with them, and they kill me....this logic suggests that I am at fault.

Seriously....

leaving sarcasm aside, do you REALLY not see what I'm getting at here?

Yes. I do.

You want us to believe that Israel were innocent, despite they having killed people, in international waters, after assaulting a ship they shouldn't have been trying to board, and finding themselves one way or another in a situation which (at best) escalated out of control.

You've tried every possible argument to suggest that this was some sort of conspiracy by the people who ended up dead....even when those arguments are logical inconsistent.

So yes...sarcasm aside, I believe I really see what you're getting at.

surprise! soldiers are trained to kill, that's part of the job. in this case, it was the only way to keep themselves alive, for those soldiers. did you expect them to lay down and die?

Its not about what I expect of the soldiers. Its about what whoever ordered them on board the ship expected of them. As you say...killing people is their job.

Sending people to assault a ship in international waters to do their job is not something you can shift the blame away from by suggesting that the people who ended up dead somehow deserved it, because you think they were terrorists who were trying to either be humanitarians or martyrs, and weren't too fussy which.

Yitzhak Rabin

dyasny wrote: »

until you spend a few years in gaza, and see everything for yourself. then a few years more in Israel, just to make sure the opinion sticks.

Just for what its worth, I have been to Israel, and thought it was a fantastic place. Haven't been to Gaza, as BB mentioned, its not the easiest place to get into in the last 3 years if you hadn't noticed.

nothing personal, but there is nothing you can say to move me,

Hence why I bowed out.

My name is URL

dyasny wrote: »

nothing personal, but there is nothing you can say to move me, until you spend a few years in gaza, and see everything for yourself. then a few years more in Israel, just to make sure the opinion sticks.

That's understandable. Someone else made a nice analogy in another forum, about the disagreements that arise during something like this.

Wibbs wrote: »

It is often useful to observe the blinkered view in action, but it does get to a point where it feels one is dealing with a human laser printer mechanically spewing out the received viewpoint until the paper runs out. I include people who hold the opposing view BTW.

Its the best analogy I can dream up of the entire conflict. Two opposed printers spewing out the same document, while the majority just get drowned in paper. Somebody needs to hit cancel.

Wibbs

I made a nice analogy??? Thanks but :eek: Clearly Ive been taken over. New thread right there lads and lasses and a few of the folks here are thinking "and you need proof somethings gone mad in this world?".

TalkieWalkie

Gaza flotilla: How Israel’s ministry of foreign affairs fakes photos of seized weapons

Publié le juin 2, 2010 par ibnkafka
On the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs’ Flickr page, the pictures of the so-called weapons seized on the ships taking part in the Gaza Freedom Flotilla provide ample evidence of the deviousness of those darned anti-semitic terrorists. Be forewarned: the following pictures are not for the faint-hearted.
Exhibit A: bulletproof vests
Selon l'armée israëlienne, ce sont des armes

A slight snag though: two commentators, probably anti-semitic, point out that this photo really is from February 2006:

Blue says: In addition, IsraelMFA has to be careful with the date settings of their cameras! This picture looks like it was taken on Feb 7, 2006.. Wth?

goplayer2008 says:
EXIF data
Date and Time (Modified): 2010:06:02 10:37:58
YCbCr Positioning: Co-sited
Exposure Program: Aperture-priority AE
Date and Time (Original): 2006:02:07 04:49:57
Date and Time (Digitized): 2006:02:07 04:49:57

Exhibit B: an axe
Ceci est une arme de destruction massive

An axe on board a ship? Good grief.
Another commentator, probably anti-semitic as well, notices that the picture dates from 2003:

Embra says:
Tiff data: Taken on January 1, 2003. Oops!

Horror knows no bounds- exhibit C: pepper spray.
Futés ces Turcs pour utiliser des sprays au poivre toujours sous emballage

The comments display the usual hateful fanaticism one can expect from islamo-fascists:

deepvisual says:
wow
they managed to use them while they were still in their wrappers… damn those Turks are clever..
Posted 3 hours ago.

Embra says:
Tiff data: Taken on January 1, 2003.
Posted 53 minutes ago.

docteur_nic says:
My mom must be a turrurrist. She used to carry one of those in her purse.
Posted 45 minutes ago.

Again, be forewarned: this post isn’t for the faint-hearted. Which leads us to exhibit a keffieh, kitchen knives, a Saudi flag, and and some CD-roms.

Do not faint just yet, because here is exhibit E: an electric saw – on a ship! Really, those terrorists really are beyond the pale.
Une scie électrique, arme de guerre

Another anti-semitic commentator spews his hateful bile:

barneygale says:
Hi. Just to confirm that the EXIF metadata points to this photo being taken in 2006:
barney@benchwood:~$ identify -verbose farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4662965686_a91f8 bab2e_o_d.jpg | grep Date
exif:DateTime: 2010:06:02 10:38:47
exif:DateTimeDigitized: 2006:02:07 05:52:19
exif:DateTimeOriginal: 2006:02:07 05:52:19

Please bear with me, because here comes exhibit F: night vision equipment, of course utterly useless on high seas.
Attention: arme de guerre!

Allow an antisemitic islamo-fascist to point out that picture’s original date:
Date and Time (Original): 2006:02:07 05:20:56 Date and Time (Digitized): 2006:02:07 05:20:56 Finally, the smoking gun as it were: aa butterfly knife of sorts, with a blade slightly shorter than a thumb, a weapon ideally suited for use against marine commandos armed with high-velocity firearms:

If all this hard evidence isn’t enough to convince you of the legitimacy of the Israeli action, I rest my case.
PS: Hurry up visiting that Flickr page, as I fear that some photos might be withdrawn soon…

Archivé sous: "I support your great war of terror", Falastin


« Les armes de destruction massive de Saddam Hussein trouvées sur les bateaux de la flottille humanitaire pour Gaza Parler de la burqa, en France, c’est parler un peu de la guerre d’Algérie »

Brown Bomber

dyasny wrote: »

have you ever seen Gaza though? been there?

No. Whats your point? Former US President Jimmy Carter has, this is what he had to say:

Palestinians in Gaza were being "starved to death" and received fewer calories a day than people in the poorest parts of Africa.

"It's an atrocity what is being perpetrated as punishment on the people in Gaza. It's a crime... I think it is an abomination that this continues to go on,"

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3533297,00.html

Richard Goldstone has too, this is what he said in his recent UN report:

The blockade comprises measures such as restrictions on the goods that can be imported into Gaza and the
closure of border crossings for people, goods and services, sometimes for days, including cuts on
the provision of fuel and electricity. Gaza’s economy is further severely affected by the reduction
of the fishing zone open to the Palestinian fishermen and the establishment of a “buffer zone”
along the border between Gaza and Israel which reduces the land available for agriculture and
industrial activity. In addition to creating an emergency situation, the blockade significantly
weakened the capacities of the population and of the health, water and other public sectors to
react to the emergency created by the military operations.
28. The Mission holds the view that Israel continues to be duty-bound under the Fourth Geneva
Convention and to the full extent of the means available to it to ensure the supply of foodstuff,
medical and hospital items and others to meet

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf

This is from an Amnesty International report from as recently as last week:

Gaza blockade suffocating agriculture sector, creating food insecurity
25 May 2010 12:38:28 GMT
Source: World Vision Middle East/Eastern Europe/ Central Asia office

Since the imposition of Israel's blockade on the Gaza Strip in June 2007, the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed. Over sixty (60) percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and well-being of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation.

The acting Humanitarian Coordinator for the occupied Palestinian Territory (oPt), Philippe Lazzarini, representing humanitarian aid agencies, and the Association of International Development Agencies (AIDA), representing over 80 NGOs, is in the Gaza Strip to reiterate this message.

Lazzarini emphasizes, 'saving agricultural livelihoods and local food production in Gaza depends on three factors: (i) the opening of border crossings to provide humanitarian and commercial access to agricultural materials and international markets; (ii) unrestricted and safe access to vital agricultural land and fishing zones; and (iii) access to materials necessary to prevent long-term damage to soil, stemming from the uncontrolled dumping of sewage, salination, unexploded ordinance and other contamination.' In the absence of such improvements, the entire fishing and farming sectors in the Gaza Strip are at risk of collapse. The Gaza population at-large is already becoming increasingly dependent on humanitarian aid.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/from...b71f758a0f.htm

Gazan's are forced to lived in sub-hum conditions because of Israel's internationally accepted illegal occupation. This is a fact that is not up for debate. It is collective punishment - a war crime, this too is a fact not up for debate. All that can be debated is if can be considered ethnic cleansing or not.

ME: Is it possible to visit Gaza? No. Why? Because it is an open-air prison.

this is bull. you are simply repeating what you heard on tv, without actually knowing anything yourself.

Hyperbole perhaps, but it is a prison and violates international law. From B'Tselem:

For the past four and a half years, Israel has severely restricted freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip. These restrictions further strangled the Gaza Strip, so much so that the area resembles one gigantic prison. Israel’s policies have reduced many human rights – among them the right to freedom of movement, family life, health, education, and work – to “humanitarian gestures” that Israel sparingly provides

ME: Oh so you want to trap them like animals, destroy every possible means of food production and then not give them any form of nutrition. Israel even guns down fishermen who try to fish in Gaza.

dyasny wrote: »

]more lies. they are fed on Israel's account, food, water, gas, EVERYTHING comes from Israel.

They are not lies. A single example http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1849098&Language=en&searchtext=fisherman%20killed . The Palestinians are starving. Israel as the occupying force has certain responsibilities under the Geneva convention, if they cannot fulfill their legally bound responsibilities to the occupied people that legally cannot refuse aid from outside their borders, which brings us to the flotilla.

ME: This is what Dov Weissglass (Ehud Barak's chief-of-staff) was referring to when he cynically decribed the illegal siege as "putting Gaza on a diet".

dyasny wrote: »

are you sure you haven't dreamt this up, or seen it on al jazeera?

:rolleyes:
Try The Guardian

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel

dyasny wrote: »

and who decides whose land is where? you? them?

No the ICJ and the World Court does. Unfortunately Israel as a rogue state pays no attention to their rulings.

dyasny wrote: »

"stolen land" stolen land" "stolen land" , why is it all these brainwashed propalestinian writers use the same terminology as each other? It is like they are all reading from the same guidebook

Which guidebook? This one?



Source: The Hasbara Handbook
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

People should read it. A lot more will make sense.

dyasny wrote: »

the same senate member who claims Israel has no right to exist, right? a VERY reliable source.

I looked her up and NOWHERE could I find her claiming Israel has no right to exist. What I did find is that she objects to Israel being classified as a Jewish state. This is a completely reasonable position, one which I share in fact. I also object to Islamic states, Christian states etc.

dyasny wrote: »

The fact that such a person is allowed to sit in the senate, should tell you Israel is a truly democratic country, the ONLY one in the entire region

Allowed to sit? unbelievable...Why shouldn't an educated, moral, humanitarian, ELECTED Israeli citizen be allowed to sit in your precious senate?

Is it because she is brown?

By the way that old "only democracy in the ME" is another one in your catalogue of lies. Another democracy begins with L and ends with ebanon, hint: on your border. But of course it is impossible that you don't know that so its fair to assume you are intentionally misleading or "point scoring?"

dyasny wrote: »

after how many were killed in mortar and rocket attacks on civilian Israeli cities?

Based on B'Tselem’s research, from June 2004 to the end of Operation Cast Lead, on 17 January 2009, 19 civilians were killed in Israel by rockets and mortar fire by Palestinians.

Probably that many still births in Palestine a day because there is no hospitals. You blew them up, killed the medics, targetted ambulances and now you won't even allow cement into Gaza to rebuild, hence the need for the flotilla.

dyasny wrote: »

After the lebanese crossed the border, killed several border patrol soldiers and kidnapped a few more? Israel should have just ignored that of course.

Again with the lies:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The soliders were captured in Lebanese territory. Do you ever tell the truth?

dyasny wrote: »

have you ever heard Israel saying Iran should be wiped from the face of the earth?

Yes, from Shimon Peres

"They want to wipe out Israel ... Now when it comes to destruction, Iran too can be destroyed [but] I don't suggest to say an eye for an eye," Peres told Reuters.

dyasny wrote: »

I have definitely heard the reverse too many times to mention

That may be because you immerse yourself in propoganda and falsehoods. Firstly Ahmadenijad was quoting Ayatollah Khomeine from the 70's. And "Isreal" , "Wipe", and "Map" were never mentioned. He said something like "the Zionist regime must be overthrown" to paraphrase.

I really think you are trying to decieve, you haven't made a single honest point thus far as far as I can tell.

Brown Bomber

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Gaza flotilla: How Israel’s ministry of foreign affairs fakes photos of seized weapons

I though you were taking the piss, that really is it?

uprising2

I was going to reply to dyanazi, but thought why increase his earnings, you can spout all the crap you want, but nobody is buying into your deluded outlook, well maybe one or two of your comrades may join you in your praise of this slaughter, what were you doing in Gaza by the way?, bulldozer driver maybe, blowing up/shooting children maybe?, good man, the all round zionist hero, your momma must be proud of you.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/Gaza-beach-killing1.jpg

Some young terrorists, just as well you good guys got these before they got sophisticated weapons such as teeth.

Inline pic changed to link by bonkey...its a bit graphic

TalkieWalkie

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I though you were taking the piss, that really is it?

Thats it bro. Hardly what one would call, terrorism or WMD. :mad:

Brown Bomber

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Thats it bro. Hardly what one would call, terrorism or WMD. :mad:

Bin Laden must be short of a few quid these days so.

squod

Dunno if anyone watched the interview with the junior Isreali ambassador on TV3 yesterday. It's up now and worth a look. One of the most balanced/civil interviews I've seen as she was asked directly to defend the actions of the

pirates/murders

.

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=23241&locID=1.65.74&date=2010-06-02&date_mode=&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=

bonkey

Guys...regardless of what you may think of dyasny, any continued suggestion that they or anyone else) are some sort of shill will not be tolerated.

If you have an issue, report it. Accusations (even indirectly) about poster's motive will not be tolerated in any direction.

Chimichangas

squod wrote: »

Dunno if anyone watched the interview with the junior Isreali ambassador on TV3 yesterday. It's up now and worth a look. One of the most balanced/civil interviews I've seen as she was asked directly to defend the actions of the

pirates/murders

.

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=23241&locID=1.65.74&date=2010-06-02&date_mode=&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=

Thanks for that, it was more balanced than most. She(vice ambassador) came across very well.
Though I think both speakers know how to use propaganda and did so.

Chimichangas

brownbomber thanks for those links, its great to have some independent facts and figures to back up a point of view, especially in an argument.


Dynasty, what can i say?
you practically accuse everyone who disagrees with your point of view of being antiisraeli/pro terrorism by proxy. You only offer your supposed life experience, and some other sources that might be viewed as a propaganda machine as proof of what you say.
I understand why-historically it has been shown that majority of people are too wrapped up in their own affairs to be bothered to work out a better more correct version of the truth. e.g. every war in history (though I dont know that I'd call the Israelu/Palestinian a war)

It seems obvious to me that you are not interested in debate, everyone else is wrong until they agree with you. Everyone could be like that I suppose, just that many people, even here, are used to keeping an open mind on matters.

squod

TBH, he's the result of something. If he's over eighteen he can make his own mind etc. But having this kind of crap at the breakfast tabe. Well, I'm not suprised.





I pray for peace.

Chimichangas

squod wrote: »

TBH, he's the result of something. If he's over eighteen he can make his own mind etc. But having this kind of crap at the breakfast tabe. Well, I'm not suprised.





I pray for peace.

I am with you on the prayers. Justice? I dont know about that. Not looking for biblical justice, but a just outcome.
But TBH that article isnt that bad, the expected dose of BS that wont be proved one way or another, creating the siege mentality, while at the same time preparing people for the inevitable reaction when extreme force is used in what was an unequal confrontation. Well maybe it was bad, but it appeared mildly written...

I dont have a problem with Israel, beautiful women, nice people, many other fine characteristics...its the zionist ideology that I find difficult to accept, and has to share a large burden of the blame for this conflict, in my opinion.

Brown Bomber

They Killed an American citizen

http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article60391.ece

Brown Bomber

They Killed an American citizen
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37484498/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa//

TalkieWalkie

The newspapers in Jerusalem are in English ? :eek:

squod

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

The newspapers in Jerusalem are in English ? :eek:

Taken from a news roundup with reactions from several nations papers. Spains El Pais and Russias Pravda were also quoted for example.
http://www.examiner.ie/

Brown Bomber

Almost every report I read is describing the aid volunteers as Pro-Palestinian activist (The implication if your "Pro-Palestinian" you are therefore automatically anti-Israeli) or worse, all they way to Jew hating terrorists. Its bull****.

To demonstrate the distinction simply watch these videos.

Here an American I think "Pro-Palestinian" activist attempts to prevent an IDF solider firing on children. The same people the aids ships are trying to save the lives of.

And then here are some example of the IDF in action.

AP film shooting of 14 year old Palestinian and erase the tape

A group of IDF soliders delibirately breaking bones of a captured defenseless Palestinian man.

Palestinian Children Beaten by Israeli Soldier

Israeli Soldier Torturing Bound Palestinian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oouncw3jCCQ

TalkieWalkie

You're research, thoughts and ideas are great BB, you are a great part of the CT forum . I don't think this is going to do anyone any good though, it's kind of like a hate campaign. I don't feel this is the direction people need to go in. These men are not evil, however, they may be under control of evil people. This kind of abuse occurs in many sides all over the world.
That said, point taken. Whats happening is very wrong, but who do we blame ? the soldiers ?.. I don't think so

Mahatma coat

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

You're research, thoughts and ideas are great BB, you are a great part of the CT forum . I don't think this is going to do anyone any good though, it's kind of like a hate campaign. I don't feel this is the direction people need to go in. These men are not evil, however, they may be under control of evil people. This kind of abuse occurs in many sides all over the world.
That said, point taken. Whats happening is very wrong, but who do we blame ? the soldiers ?.. I don't think so

Not Evil, WTF???? are you tryin to use the
'They were only following Orders' Defence

Bollox

enno99

Yes it might be seen that way
But I also applaud BB this information has to be shown some people dont have any idea this stuff is going on

here is a couple of full documentaries
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8811228148340443316#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2165626245072381061#

Brown Bomber

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

You're research, thoughts and ideas are great BB, you are a great part of the CT forum . I don't think this is going to do anyone any good though, it's kind of like a hate campaign. I don't feel this is the direction people need to go in. These men are not evil, however, they may be under control of evil people. This kind of abuse occurs in many sides all over the world.
That said, point taken. Whats happening is very wrong, but who do we blame ? the soldiers ?.. I don't think so

I understand where you are coming from, honestly I do. The way I look at it is I wouldn't blame a dog who was trained from birth to be viscous if it bites some kid. The dogs not evil but its trainers are. However, you've still got a viscous dog on your hands that needs to be put down to prevent it from attacking again.

Worst of all is if the trainer gives the orders for the attack, which is what we have in the case of the flotilla. I definitely don't think all IDF members of evil, statistically there will be some sadistic ****s, just like any group but definitely programmed to commit evil acts. There can be no other explanation as far as I am concerned, there is no strategic military value in shooting a child.

This interview with two former IDF soliders from the second Infitada explains it quite well.

TalkieWalkie

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Not Evil, WTF???? are you tryin to use the
'They were only following Orders' Defence

Bollox

I would appreciate if you didn't speak to me like that
I don't think it's boll0x. What is to gain by hating a nation ? We know from history where that gets us, nowhere, fast. Hate creates hate, it creates war, it divides people, it devolves us.
Everyone knows that.
So why jump on the band wagon that you are teased/expected to jump on ?
It's all planned, you are supposed to react with agression. So why go along with it like a puppet ?