Israel Kills 10 aid workers

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL12626820._CH_.2400

I wonder does the story ring any bells of events in the past over here?

Yes. Our own civil war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War#Atrocities_and_executions

Your equating resistance with terrorism which is a false comparison. Not all people moved to resistance are terrorists. In fact not all resistors are violent. Gandhi was part of a resistance.

Anyway, I wanted to share this - Chomsky on the 2009 Gaza aid ship hijacking.

While our thoughts are turned to elections, we should not forget one recent authentically "free and fair" election in the Middle East region, in Palestine in January 2006, to which the US and its allies at once responded with harsh punishment for the population that voted "the wrong way." The pretexts offered were laughable, and the response caused scarcely a ripple on the flood of commentary on Washington's noble "efforts to spread democracy to the Muslim world," a feat that reveals impressive subordination to authority.

No less impressive is the readiness to agree that Israel is justified in imposing a harsh and destructive siege on Gaza, and attacking it with merciless violence using US equipment and diplomatic support, as it did last winter. There of course is a pretext: "the right to self-defense." The pretext has been almost universally accepted in the West, though Israeli actions are sometimes condemned as "disproportionate." The reaction is remarkable, because the pretext collapses on the most cursory inspection. The issue is the right TO USE FORCE in self-defense, and a state has that right only if it has exhausted peaceful means. In this case, Israel has simply refused to use the peaceful means that have been readily available. All of this has been amply discussed elsewhere, and it should be unnecessary to review the simple facts once again.

Once again relying on the impunity it receives as a US client, Israel brought the month of June 2009 to a close by enforcing the siege with a brazen act of hijacking. On June 30, the Israeli navy hijacked the Free Gaza movement boat "Spirit of Humanity" -- in international waters, according to those aboard -- and forced it to the Israeli port of Ashdod. The boat had left from Cyprus, where the cargo was inspected: it consisted of medicines, reconstruction supplies, and toys. The human rights workers aboard included Nobel Laureate Mairead Maguire and former congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, who was sent to Ramleh prison in Israel - apparently without a word from the Obama administration. The crime scarcely elicited a yawn - with some justice, one might argue, since Israel has been hijacking boats travelling between Cyprus and Lebanon for decades, kidnapping and sometimes killing passengers or sending them in Israeli prisons without charge where they join thousands of others, in some cases held for many years as hostages. So why even bother to report this latest outrage by a rogue state and its patron, for whom law is a theme for 4th of July speeches and a weapon against enemies?

Israel's hijacking is a far more extreme crime than anything carried out by Somalis driven to piracy by poverty and despair, and destruction of their fishing grounds by robbery and dumping of toxic wastes - not to speak of the destruction of their economy by a Bush counter-terror operation conceded to have been fraudulent, and a US-backed Ethiopian invasion. The Israeli hijacking is also in violation of a March 1988 international Convention on safety of maritime navigation to which the US is a party, hence required by the Convention to assist in enforcing it. Israel, however, is not a party - which, of course, in no way mitigates the crime or the obligation to enforce the Convention against violators. Israel's failure to join is particularly interesting, since the Convention was partially inspired by the hijacking of the Achille Lauro in 1985. That crime ranks high in Israel and the West among terrorist atrocities -- unlike Israel's US-backed bombing of Tunis a week earlier, killing 75 people, as usual with no credible pretext, but again tolerated under the grant of impunity for the US and its clients.

Possibly Israel chose not to join the Convention because of its regular practice of hijacking boats in international waters at that time. Also worth investigating in connection with the June 2009 hijacking is that since 2000, after the discovery of apparently substantial reserves of natural gas in Gaza's territorial waters by British Gas, Israel has been steadily forcing Gazan fishing boats towards shore, often violently, ruining an industry vital to Gaza's survival. At the same time, Israel has been entering into negotiations with BG to obtain gas from these sources, thus stealing the meager resources of the population it is mercilessly crushing.

http://www.zcommunications.org/season-of-travesties-freedom-and-democracy-in-mid-2009-by-noam-chomsky

robtri

uprising2 wrote: »

No not hypocritical, show me where I condone killing, if you can't apologise.
Yes I can understand oppressed people fighting back against a foreign inhumane invading heavily armed force, if I were unfortunate enough to be born in Gaza I'd be part of the resistance, no doubt about it.
And I never condoned any killing, I said I can understand, not the same.

that is the funniest response yet... first line u ask to show where u sondone killing..... second line you say u wud join in with the resistence(who have killed israelis)
lol
comical... seriously comical.....

uprising2 wrote: »

I joined this forum (in this carnation) in Jan 2009 as castlead was underway, please supply a list of Israeli's killed since then and links to circumstances and I'll call a spade a spade, it's just I haven't heard too much of that type of thing lately.

you can use google as well as i can...

uprising2 wrote: »

Erm, Erm, I was on a youtube roll and George Galloway was putting a few truths to the skynews bias, actually since you enjoyed it so much here's another of George standing his ground on FOX.

george galloway a uk politician who whored himself on national TV in big brother.... who would sell his soul for a few quid... yeah cant wait to look at that video...

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

that is the funniest response yet... first line u ask to show where u sondone killing..... second line you say u wud join in with the resistence(who have killed israelis)
lol
comical... seriously comical.....


you can use google as well as i can...





george galloway a uk politician who whored himself on national TV in big brother.... who would sell his soul for a few quid... yeah cant wait to look at that video...

Resistance is not exclusive to killing. And killing is not limited to civilians, Israeli soliders are legitimate targets when they are in occupied territory.

Anyway...

This is my understanding of events as they happened

Flotilla passengers comprehensively checked for weapons and cargo fully cleared as aid by NATO country and US and Israel ally Turkey.

6 ships led by the the Turkish Ship the Mavi Marmara set sail from Turkey to Gaza.

The ships contain human rights activists, peace activists, charity workers, Palestine advocacy groups, over 60 journalists, doctors, nurses, diplomats, German, Israeli, Egyptian, and Kuwaiti MP's, teachers, authors, a USS Liberty survivor etc.

May 31 Israel intercepts the warships with warships and is firing from paintball type guns at the passengers of the Mavi Marmara. A helicopter floats overhead and sniper(s) fire rubber bullets and according to many accounts live rounds from above.

According to autopsy reports a number of the fatalities have bullet wounds on the top of the head.

In the dead of night the first team of masked, armed commandos abseils down the from the overhead helicopter and meets unarmed resistance. The commados are overpowered and some are taken hostage by the passengers.

A second commando team drops from a second helicopter and starts firing live rounds killing more and wounding scores.

The captured commandos are released and the commados take control of the boat.

Whats yours?

Brown Bomber

Take a long hard look at this picture from the Mavi Marmara.

Tell me what you see.

Tell me what it means to you.

Brown Bomber

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Jon Snow from CH4 News grilling Israeli spokesman Mark Regev. I am genuinely worried Israel are trying to ignite a war with Turkey. Watch the last minute if nothing else. They are not backing down and neither are the Turks. http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-211844-no-one-should-test-turkeys-patience-pm-erdogan-warns.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMd_js_oQAk

IrelandSpirit

Brown Bomber wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMd_js_oQAk

yep, and it just goes on ...

Israel lying to English speaking World about lifting Gaza blockade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT4P8CVLonY

Brown Bomber

Obviously I can't say for certain what the Hebrew text says but this is Hebrew for "Hezbollah" -

חיזבאללה.

and is in the text

Israeli Organization Places Ad for Volunteers To Attack Solidarity Ships

An Israeli security organization placed an advertisement in the ads section in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, seeking “women volunteers” to attack and remove women from the Lebanese aid flotilla “Miriam” filled with aid supplies and women peace activists.

The Ad on Yedioth Aharonot

The ad states that “Women with great physical strength and motivations” are needed on a volunteer basis to attack and evacuate women from the Lebanese aid ship. It also has a voice mail number for the volunteers to call and enlist.

The ad also claims that the ship is sent by the Lebanon-based Hezbollah party, while the party itself denied any connection to the flotilla, the Mondoweiss reported.

The name of the security organization was not mentioned in the ad, and the voice-mail does not seem to be connected with a known Israeli organization
http://www.imemc.org/article/58975

Run_to_da_hills

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Israeli Organization Places Ad for woman Volunteers To Attack Solidarity Ships

A big cat fight

Mahatma coat

Israel seem to be doing everything it can to ensure that there WILL be 'Terrorists' on the next ships.

squod

“The cargo ship will only have 10 people – five reporters and five Red Crescent aid workers – on board

The name of the ship leaving port on Sunday is 'Gaza Children’. Probably designed to stir emotion etc. and draw more attention in this PR tussle.http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\06\23\story_23-6-2010_pg20_3

robtri

squod wrote: »

The name of the ship leaving port on Sunday is 'Gaza Children’. Probably designed to stir emotion etc. and draw more attention in this PR tussle.http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\06\23\story_23-6-2010_pg20_3

makes you think is it about PR or is it actually about helping people

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

makes you think is it about PR or is it actually about helping people

It shouldn't make you think that if you understood that raising awareness of the the illegal Israeli blockade and their catolgue of other war crimes is actually part of helping people by raising awareness.

Be cynical all you like but it is attitudes like yours that contribute to people dying.

A single story of a child frmo Gaza. These are the families they are trying to help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfT4QrqOnYM

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It shouldn't make you think that if you understood that raising awareness of the the illegal Israeli blockade and their catolgue of other war crimes is actually part of helping people by raising awareness.

Be cynical all you like but it is attitudes like yours that contribute to people dying.

A single story of a child frmo Gaza. These are the families they are trying to help.

nothing cynical about my attitude...

at least i dont forget the innocent victoms on the other side like you

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

nothing cynical about my attitude...

at least i dont forget the innocent victoms on the other side like you

Thats laughable. To be perfectly honest I am sick of banging my head against a wall with you.

I repeat for a final time. Yes there were two sides, they were:

1. The attacked
2. The attackers

Now for some reason that you have yet to share your sympathy according to you lies in a 50/50 split between the attacker and the attacked. You expect me and everyone else to share this perverse view that goes against all universal principles of justice and morality.

If you read back over the thread you will see (I hope) that you were duped by IDF propoganda and lies. Perhaps you continue to think the IHH are al qaeda and the ships shouldn't be carrying food knives and Israel can murder, kidnap, steal, illegally detain, torture and brutalise people because of self-defence. I don't. On that photo I posted on the last page of the passengers aiding the subdued commando the guy on the right was an IHH member.

You need to look deeper into the whole situation, especially the crimes and lies of Israel to save yourself from getting duped again.

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Thats laughable. To be perfectly honest I am sick of banging my head against a wall with you.

I repeat for a final time. Yes there were two sides, they were:

1. The attacked
2. The attackers

Now for some reason that you have yet to share your sympathy according to you lies in a 50/50 split between the attacker and the attacked. You expect me and everyone else to share this perverse view that goes against all universal principles of justice and morality.

If you read back over the thread you will see (I hope) that you were duped by IDF propoganda and lies. Perhaps you continue to think the IHH are al qaeda and the ships shouldn't be carrying food knives and Israel can murder, kidnap, steal, illegally detain, torture and brutalise people because of self-defence. I don't. On that photo I posted on the last page of the passengers aiding the subdued commando the guy on the right was an IHH member.

You need to look deeper into the whole situation, especially the crimes and lies of Israel to save yourself from getting duped again.

no offence.. but you really havent a clue...
look deeper and dont be duped stuff... what a joke....

your continued denial of any wrong doing and murder by palestians is morrally and ethically wrong...

so no matter how many videos you post that have feck all bearing other than to promote your own very very one sided views... innocent people are dying on both sides who need our help...

BOTH SIDES need help........ do you understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yitzhak Rabin

dyasny wrote: »

where have you seen a marine unit trained in crowd control?

Originally posted by yekahs
Haulbowline in Cobh co. Cork, and DFTC, Curragh co. Kildare.


I am also an instructor in Public Order Training. Only on land based scenarios, which includes prisons, which would have very similar enclosed spaces, and angry improptu violence.

I was training troops in the marine facility we have just the other day, and took a few photos of the facility.... just in case anyone thought I was bluffing.









So if we have these capabilities in the Irish Defence Force, then the Israelis are bound to have at least that, and likely far better facilities.

PirateShampoo

yekahs wrote: »

I was training troops in the marine facility we have just the other day, and took a few photos of the facility.... just in case anyone thought I was bluffing.



So if we have these capabilities in the Irish Defence Force, then the Israelis are bound to have at least that, and likely far better facilities.

And if me and 5 other prisoners run at you with metal poles will you shoot me in the head or tickle me into submission?

Yitzhak Rabin

PirateShampoo wrote: »

And if me and 5 other prisoners run at you with metal poles will you shoot me in the head or tickle me into submission?

You're right, because soldiers can only do one of two things, there's not a spectrum of responses :rolleyes:

But, I think you are missing the point I made in the last post. All I was doing was providing evidence that you can train for marine based crowd control and public order situations on land, and it is something which I was doing last week.

In conducting the training last week, it struck me how pathetic and amateur the Israeli response was from a military point of view. It was a shambles. That is unless it was designed for that outcome from the start.

PirateShampoo

So in your professional opinion (ive no idea what your profession actually is) what should of be the course of action that the Commandos taken when they where being assaulted as they boarded?

Torakx

We should also be factoring in prejudice i think.

PirateShampoo

Torakx wrote: »

We should also be factoring in prejudice i think.

Actually agree with you there. Boarding a civilian ship and subduing a prison riot should have 2 totally different mind sets.

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Actually agree with you there. Boarding a civilian ship and subduing a prison riot should have 2 totally different mind sets.

Much more accurately attacking a civilian ship

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Much more accurately attacking a civilian ship

How is it more accurate?

Dont they have to board the ship to attack it?

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

How is it more accurate?

Dont they have to board the ship to attack it?

Because if I cross the street and stab you in the face would you expect it to be called a stabbing/knife attack or road-crossing?

Or if I purposely run you over and drive away - would you call it a "hit-and-run"/(attempted) murder or a "getting into a car"

Which is more accurate in the above examples?

PirateShampoo

Did they or did they not board the ship?

You can call it what ever you want but the correct term is Boarding.

2. [Cf. Board to accost, and see Board, n.]

To go on board of, or enter, as a ship, whether in a hostile or a friendly way. [1913 Webster]

You board an enemy to capture her, and a stranger to receive news or make a communication. --Totten. [1913 Webster]

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Did they or did they not board the ship?

By boarding meaning "got on" yes, obviously they did. But as they did far more than "board"/got on the ship i.e. murdering at least 9 unarmed civilians, assassination style for the most part, injuring 40 others, kidnapping 700 people, stealing their possessions, brutalising them, torturing them, illegally detaining them etc it is an insult to the victims to refer to the attack as merely "boarding" it is an extremely poor choice of word which is an insult to the victims.

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Did they or did they not board the ship?

You can call it what ever you want but the correct term is Boarding.

2. [Cf. Board to accost, and see Board, n.]

To go on board of, or enter, as a ship, whether in a hostile or a friendly way. [1913 Webster]

You board an enemy to capture her, and a stranger to receive news or make a communication. --Totten. [1913 Webster]

In your dictionary is "boarding" defined as "murder"? or any crime on the person? If not "boarding" does not decribe fully the reality of events.

PirateShampoo

How is using a word in its correct term and in the manner its supposed to be used a poor choice of word? They had to board the ship to carry out all the acts that you mentioned.

You can insist its wrong all you like and your crew can thank you all they want, but it doesn't make you right.

Now if they had never set foot on the boat then your original statement that they attacked it would be correct.

Now thats all the whining i can take from you on the subject for today. So good day to you Sir.

Torakx

How about they boarded and attacked the crew unlawfully on international waters.
Id understand arresting all the passengrs (maybe not killing them) if the aid ship and its crew had attempted to board and attack the Israeli ships.
Is that what people are implying?

Mahatma coat

why did they HAVE to board the ship???

I see the GIYUS Shills have spread their Disinfo well

Di0genes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

why did they HAVE to board the ship???

Why did the US blockade Cuba during the missile crisis. And as has been pointed out on this thread already Hamas have used humanitarian aid as cover for military shipments before.

I see the GIYUS Shills have spread their Disinfo well

And you wonder why you got demodd'd

squod

Mahatma coat wrote: »

why did they HAVE to board the ship???

Article on France24 about this same issue. Trained marine commandos could have disabled the boats propellers or easily taken control of the wheelhouse (bridge).

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

Why did the US blockade Cuba during the missile crisis.

What don't you answer that yourself and then explain why it is relevant to an aid ship who's cargo and passengers were checked by ally and NATO member Turkey before they set sail for Gaza.

Di0genes wrote: »

And as has been pointed out on this thread already Hamas have used humanitarian aid as cover for military shipments before.

So?
Where Hamas represented at all in the Freedom Flotilla? No. They weren't.

Brown Bomber

Torakx wrote: »

How about they boarded and attacked the crew unlawfully on international waters.
Id understand arresting all the passengrs (maybe not killing them) if the aid ship and its crew had attempted to board and attack the Israeli ships.
Is that what people are implying?

What happened was 10-30 warships were firing sound and gas weapons as if it were a war at the Mavi Marmara. An IDF sniper in a helicopter above assassinated a Turk before any commandos landed, shot him between the eyes. Then (and this is what you see in the IDF video) the helicopter tried to land some commandos who were overpowered by unarmed civilians defending their lives, taken below deck and given first aid. Moments later, a second Israeli commando unit was dropped on the Mavi Marmara and they started firing indiscriminately with live rounds, killing 9 unarmed civilians, (many assasinated, shot point blank multiple times, others were shot in the back) and wounding 40-50. This went on for about 90 minutes until the Isrealis took full control of the ship and took every passenger as a prisoner.

And this is just the beginning of their multitude of crimes against the passengers.

This is a good passenger account
Kevin Neish
http://flotillamassacrepassengers.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/eyewitness-to-the-israeli-assault-on-the-mavi-marmara/
Peter Venner
http://flotillamassacrepassengers.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/gaza-man-peter-charged-over-involvement/

Mahatma coat

Di0genes wrote: »

Why did the US blockade Cuba during the missile crisis.

I believe it had something to do with their military being a bunch of bullying thugs with blatant disregard for any international law they didnt agree with, that blockade was illegal as is the Gaza Blockade.

And as has been pointed out on this thread already Hamas have used humanitarian aid as cover for military shipments before.

that allegation is being repeated adnauseum by the same group of posters, You decry the people who say that the 9-11 firefightrers were in on it, yet you have no problem Painting these Turkish Victims of Israeli Murder as Terrorists/ terrorist Sypmathisers, so whats different, whqat goides your moral outrage on this one, is it because they believe in a different Sky Fairy than you???????
[/quote]

And you wonder why you got demodd'd

Yeah, cos you did such a wonderful job when they Asked YOU.

studiorat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So?
Where Hamas represented at all in the Freedom Flotilla? No. They weren't.

Their agenda is pushed by the IHH at every possible occasion furthermore IHH was connected to Jihadist groups a long time ago.


http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Yildirim_Haniyeh.jpg

This is IHH’s president, Bülent Yildirim, with Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh during the convoy visit.

In 2006 a Danish research institute called the Danish Institute for International Studies conducted a study which reported that in the past IHH had connections with Al-Qaeda and global jihad operatives, obviously before it became un-PC examine these connections.

Also look into Mohammed Sawalh a fund raiser for the flotilla! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5234586.stm

In an interview with Sawalh on the Hezbollah website:

of the treatment Lifeline-3 had received from the Egyptian government, saying it led to an “undesirable confrontation” [with the Egyptians]. He added that “the next time the confrontation will be directly with the Zionist enemy itself on the high seas.”

... IHH leaders stated that they hoped to widen the rift between Israel and Turkey by inciting Israel to take military action against the flotilla.

Useful idiots at sea.

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

Their agenda is pushed by the IHH at every possible occasion furthermore IHH was connected to Jihadist groups a long time ago.


http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Yildirim_Haniyeh.jpg

This is IHH’s president, Bülent Yildirim, with Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh during the convoy visit.

In 2006 a Danish research institute called the Danish Institute for International Studies conducted a study which reported that in the past IHH had connections with Al-Qaeda and global jihad operatives, obviously before it became un-PC examine these connections.

Also look into Mohammed Sawalh a fund raiser for the flotilla! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5234586.stm

In an interview with Sawalh on the Hezbollah website:



Useful idiots at sea.

haha yeah rumours and unsubstantiated nonsense. Tables are turned, where is your evidence?

How many people did these terrorists kill? 0
How many did the Israeli terrorists kill? 9

The IHH aid workers were directly responsible for saving the lives of the captured commandos had been firing on them and indeed killed an IHH member. The kept other justifiably angry passengers from getting their hands on the murderorous, brain-washed bastards.



The guy on the right is Dr Hasan Huseyin Uysal who is treating the captured commando.

Terrorists my arse. Filthy lies.

studiorat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

haha yeah rumours and unsubstantiated nonsense. Tables are turned, where is your evidence?

.

Read the transcript...

squod

studiorat wrote: »

Read the transcript...

watch the video.

Di0genes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I believe it had something to do with their military being a bunch of bullying thugs with blatant disregard for any international law they didnt agree with, that blockade was illegal as is the Gaza Blockade.

Um no that blockade helped prevent world war three.

that allegation is being repeated adnauseum by the same group of posters, You decry the people who say that the 9-11 firefightrers were in on it, yet you have no problem Painting these Turkish Victims of Israeli Murder as Terrorists/ terrorist Sypmathisers, so whats different, whqat goides your moral outrage on this one, is it because they believe in a different Sky Fairy than you???????

Whoa whoa whoa. I never said these particular people were terrorists, quit putting words in my mouth (and use a freaking spell checker). All I did is point out that Hamas have a history of smuggling weapons in with humanitarian aid, using ambulances to ferry terrorists about. Hence the logic in being suspicious about a ship's cargo.

Yeah, cos you did such a wonderful job when they Asked YOU.

Never wanted it, didn't need the grief, you really are bitter about that arent you?

studiorat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Terrorists my arse. Filthy lies.

Because your reading of the scenario is so biased I don't think you are taking in what I'm saying here...

Do you dispute that IHH have connections with Hamas? Show me evidence to the contrary.

Do you dispute that in the past "aid" convoys have carried arms? Again show me evidence that refutes this.

Do you think the primary goal of the IHH contingent of the convoy was to either break the blockade, or to bring humanitarian aid?

My issue is that I feel certain parties decided to use civilian ships for what was essentially military (or naval) operation. i.e. to break the blockade. The flotilla refused to allow the aid to enter via Egyptian, Israeli or UN means. The flotilla was there to highlight the blockade, and hopefully break it setting up a situation where Hamas can import arms at will.

The blockade is a valid military operation as per Article 23 of the fourth Geneva convention. Both Egypt and the Palestinian Authority, their two closest Arab neighbors closely support it. Neither are particularly interested in seeing an Islamic state set up by Hamas.

Despite Ankara's understandable indignation, it still has not stopped it's military personnel from visiting Israel for training on weapons to be used against the PPK.

Both Israel and Hamas are trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. By looking at the issues from one side only you are allowing them to do that to you too.

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

Because your reading of the scenario is so biased I don't think you are taking in what I'm saying here...

No offense but there is nothing to take in. Just Isreali lies, hollow exaggerations and propoganda.

studiorat wrote: »

Do you dispute that IHH have connections with Hamas? Show me evidence to the contrary.

The IHH-Hamas "connections" you have shown as far as I can make out is a photo of an IHH leader and Hamas in a 2006 photo and the fact that the IHH has an office in Gaza.


















See the way photos of people meeting mean nothing?


And guess what?

Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza. IHH is an aid organisation. Israel has caused a humanitarian crisis in Gaza according to the UN and all Human rights organisations, in the last week or so B'tselem announced that 95% of factories are closed and 93% of all drinking water is polluted (hope that Gazan restaurant you posted has Evian). Judge Richard Goldstone met with Hamas during his investigation into Castlead by he is "connected" to terrorists, any aid organisation that has an office in Gaza is "connected" to terrorists. It's insane. Is it just Islamic charities that you assume are "connected" to terrorists?

Another thing is that USrael gets to decide who is and isn't a terrorist. The US is the biggest global terrorists and Israel is by far the biggest terrorist group in the region.

studiorat wrote: »

Do you dispute that in the past "aid" convoys have carried arms? Again show me evidence that refutes this.

No.

Do you dispute the fact that the cargo was fully
checked and accounted for before they left from Turkey?

What reason is there to believe that flotilla carried any arms? even the passengers themselves were subjected to stringent metal detection systems before they were allowed on the boat.

studiorat wrote: »

Do you think the primary goal of the IHH contingent of the convoy was to either break the blockade, or to bring humanitarian aid?

Neither.

The flotilla was never going to break the blockade unless Israel allowed it which was never going to happen. I believe the primary goal was to highlight the illegal blockade which causes daily death, pain and suffering for the innocent civilians of Gaza who are subjected to the war crime of collective punishments while the governments of the world stand idly by.

studiorat wrote: »

My issue is that I feel certain parties decided to use civilian ships for what was essentially military (or naval) operation. i.e. to break the blockade.

Delivering aid under no terms can be honestly decribed as a "military" operation. How many militaries carry no weapons?

studiorat wrote: »

The flotilla refused to allow the aid to enter via Egyptian, Israeli or UN means.

As is their right.

studiorat wrote: »

The flotilla was there to highlight the blockade,

Correct

studiorat wrote: »

and hopefully break it setting up a situation where Hamas can import arms at will.

I'm sorry but that is nonsense.

And why shouldn't Hamas be allowed to import arms?

studiorat wrote: »

The blockade is a valid military operation as per Article 23 of the fourth Geneva convention. Both Egypt and the Palestinian Authority, their two closest Arab neighbors closely support it. Neither are particularly interested in seeing an Islamic state set up by Hamas.

hahhhh So Israel respects international law now?

...read artcile 27 and 47

Article 27

Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity.
Women shall be especially protected against any attack on their honour, in particular against rape, enforced prostitution, or any form of indecent assault.


Without prejudice to the provisions relating to their state of health, age and sex, all protected persons shall be treated with the same consideration by the Party to the conflict in whose power they are, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, religion or political opinion.
However, the Parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war.

Article 47

Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory.

studiorat wrote: »

Despite Ankara's understandable indignation, it still has not stopped it's military personnel from visiting Israel for training on weapons to be used against the PPK.

Nothing to do with anything.

studiorat wrote: »

Both Israel and Hamas are trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. By looking at the issues from one side only you are allowing them to do that to you too.

no. I am not interested in Hamas, only the innocent people of Gaza.

Brown Bomber

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6hhK-QZ0Lo

Mahatma coat

OK if the IHH have connections to hamass then something more than allegations based on ten year old information is required.

the passenger manifest for all the ships is available, show me on those lists the names of people who are 'terrorists'

Otherwise I'm afraid it is you my friend who have fallen for the Israeli Bullsh1t here

It was a war crime full stop

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

no. I am not interested in Hamas, only the innocent people of Gaza.

no your more interested in putting israel down with a big as stick s you can find... your are more interested in generating bad PR for israel....

Mahatma coat

Israel is perfectly capable of generating its own bad PR, we're just trying to stop them from spinning it in their favour by trying to keep the TRUTH in frame.

Hammas are equally capable of doing evil and bad things, but it seems that the Media are only too happy to report on that, so We'll keep trying to bring balance to the discussion

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Israel is perfectly capable of generating its own bad PR, we're just trying to stop them from spinning it in their favour by trying to keep the TRUTH in frame.

Hammas are equally capable of doing evil and bad things, but it seems that the Media are only too happy to report on that, so We'll keep trying to bring balance to the discussion

strange that.. i dont remember one post supporting israel and its actions....
i remember a few posts about innocent israelis being killed and these posts ignored cause they dont fit in with certain posters views.

So forgive when i laugh at that, posters here are not tring to bring balance, but force their own agenda.... a conspiracy so to say

IrelandSpirit

robtri wrote: »

strange that.. i dont remember one post supporting israel and its actions....

Supporting piracy and murder?

robtri wrote: »

i remember a few posts about innocent israelis being killed and these posts ignored cause they dont fit in with certain posters views.

So forgive when i laugh at that, posters here are not tring to bring balance, but force their own agenda.... a conspiracy so to say

FFS!! Name one 'innocent Israeli' killed on that flotilla!

Mahatma coat

OK, So do YOU support Israeli Actions?????
Do you think stormin an Aid flotilla in the middle of the night and killing ten people is acceptable?

thats what is being discussed here, Israels Act of Piracy, the GIYUS Types seem to want to bring everything back to
'Oh but Hammas Are evil too'
this thread has fvck all to do with Hammas, it has to do with the Attack on the Aid flotilla bound for GAZA and Israels murderous intervention

And as an aside how many Israelis have Hammas or the actions of Hammas killed in the last month????

how many Palestinians have died in the same time????????