10 die in Israeli raid on aid flotilla

gungun · 31-05-2010 12:19pm #1

oh jeez:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 12:31pm

Doesn't suprise me. Israel's dogmatist, Mark Regev is currently on the news saying they weren't aid workers but terrorist sympathisers.

cyrusdvirus · 31-05-2010 1:04pm

there are already a couple of threads on this in AH and politics......was surprised it took so long to surface here!!

somehow i think the viewpoint would be slightly different here though..... more giving out about a cocked up operation than the actual action itself!!

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 1:25pm

There is footage of the commandos roping down to the boat and getting battered with metal bars!

On Sky News an Israeli spokesperson said 1 commando had his pistol taken from him,resulting in a sustained firefight,with 19 people ending up dead!!

Hopefully the Yanks step in and sort the Israelis out on this one,doubt it very much though.

Whatever about the events which happened on the boat,the initial handling of the situation by the Israelis was a joke,and now it has played right into Hamas' hands.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 1:26pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

There is footage of the commandos roping down to the boat and getting battered with metal bars!

On Sky News an Israeli spokesperson said 1 commando had his pistol taken from him,resulting in a sustained firefight,with 19 people ending up dead!!

Hopefully the Yanks step in and sort the Israelis out on this one,doubt it very much though.

Whatever about the events which happened on the boat,the initial handling of the situation by the Israelis was a joke,and now it has played right into Hamas' hands.

What have Hamas to do with this?

cyrusdvirus · 31-05-2010 1:28pm

as i said, a cocked up op. Plenty of publicity for hamas, Israel made out to be the big bad guys where every man and woman is under arms ( cos if the same was true for their neighbours Israel would be a footnote in history)

No good will come out of this.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 1:45pm

What does Hamas have to do with this?

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 1:53pm

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

What does Hamas have to do with this?

Considering that the Aid was being shipped to the people under their rule,I'd say they have a lot to do with this.

Its pretty obvious,"look at what the pigs are doing" and all that talk. They will spin it multiple ways,how the IDF will kill aid workers just to stop aid getting the Gaza etc etc etc.

I mean,Hamas are already out condemning the incident.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 1:56pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Considering that the Aid was being shipped to the people under their rule,I'd say they have a lot to do with this.

Its pretty obvious,"look at what the pigs are doing" and all that talk. They will spin it multiple ways,how the IDF will kill aid workers just to stop aid getting the Gaza etc etc etc.

I mean,Hamas are already out condemning the incident.

Well, one could seperately analyse Hamas' reaction it, and I'm not suprised that they have condemned it considering Israeli chases its people around the world, and carries out assisinations with false Irish passports. Neither would I be suprised if they have said or will say what you have said, that the IDF will indeed kill aid workes just to stop aid getting into Gaza.

But, the incident itself has nothing to do with Hamas, really.

Why I asked is because there are efforts being made to muddy the waters in an effort to deflect attention away from this undoubtedly inhuman action by the IDF, by refering to Hamas and the wider issue of the conflict. Phrases such as 'under their rule' add credence to this theory.

Its simple, Israel hs murdered approximately 19 aid workers in an act of piracy.

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 2:04pm

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Well, one could seperately analyse Hamas' reaction it, and I'm not suprised that they have condemned it considering Israeli chases its people around the world, and carries out assisinations with false Irish passports. Neither would I be suprised if they have said or will say what you have said, that the IDF will indeed kill aid workes just to stop aid getting into Gaza.

But, the incident itself has nothing to do with Hamas, really.

Why I asked is because there are efforts being made to muddy the waters in an effort to deflect attention away from this undoubtedly inhuman action by the IDF, by refering to Hamas and the wider issue of the conflict. Phrases such as 'under their rule' add credence to this theory.

Its simple, Israel hs murdered approximately 19 aid workers in an act of piracy.

But no one is trying to muddy the waters(well I'am not anyway),this is just another incident to add to the list involving Israelis. And I'am sure that Hamas will be saying, "See,they will attack innocent civilians just like we said all the time!"

Its a disgusting action from the IDF, and is going to damage them in the PR end of things,and bolster support for Hamas.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:06pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

But no one is trying to muddy the waters(well I'am not anyway),this is just another incident to add to the list involving Israelis. And I'am sure that Hamas will be saying, "See,they will attack innocent civilians just like we said all the time!"

Its a disgusting action from the IDF, and is going to damage them in the PR end of things,and bolster support for Hamas.

No bother, sorry if I muddied the waters that I thought you were trying to muddy :P

I agree 100%. Israel seem pretty wreckless and I really believe at this stage they simply don't care. No matter how much effort the put into PR, I still think they don't care and might as well be giving the two fingers to the world, that includes America.

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:08pm

Its simple

No it's not simple. We do not yet have all the facts. Ok it is a botched operation and a tragic one at that but the aid workers were told before this happened that they were not going to be allowed to reach Gaza.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:13pm

DylanJM wrote: »

No it's not simple. We do not yet have all the facts. Ok it is a botched operation and a tragic one at that but the aid workers were told before this happened that they were not going to be allowed to reach Gaza.

Israel has murdered approximately 19 aid workers, in an illegal act. Simple.

gizmo555 · 31-05-2010 2:13pm

DylanJM wrote: »

We do not yet have all the facts.

Of course, the reason we don't have all the facts is because the Israeli military is blocking communications with the ships it attacked, until it gets its spin out first.

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 2:15pm

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

No bother, sorry if I muddied the waters that I thought you were trying to muddy :P

No worries!

DylanJM wrote: »

No it's not simple. We do not yet have all the facts. Ok it is a botched operation and a tragic one at that but the aid workers were told before this happened that they were not going to be allowed to reach Gaza.

The simple fact is though,they were overly aggressive in boarding the boats in the manner they did. There are no weapons on the boat,as custom officials have confirmed this.

And an Israeli spokesman has said that 1 soldier had his pistol taken from him,and as a result 19 people have been killed

If the person who had taken the pistol had been shot nothing would be said,but 18 others shot?

The aid workers were not told they would be shot as a result.

And what is happening now is all contact with the media has been restricted and only the Israelis are allowed to make contact. They are controlling what is getting out.

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:15pm

Here's a post from militaryphotos.com with some info.

This flotilla was composed of 6 ships of different size.
All but one were subdued without violence nor casualties.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:15pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

Of course, the reason we don't have all the facts is because the Israeli military is blocking communications with the ships it attacked, until it gets its spin out first.

And kidnapped and detained everyone.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:16pm

DylanJM wrote: »

Here's a post from militaryphotos.com with some info.

A post from militaryphotos.com.

You should get a medal for a rock hard source of valuable information. Did you email this to Sky News?

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 2:18pm

On any other media outlet nothing has been said of petrol bombs or firearms.

Being beaten by sticks is not justification to use deadly force.

And any video that can be seen of the boarding shows about 3-4 people attacking the troops,the rest are standing clear of the chaos.

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:21pm

Yes I admit I posted that a bit hastily.

The soldiers did come under attack however

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdXr1XL2-ZU

And btw I'm not condoning the Israelis actions I just don't believe it's as black and white as you say it is.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:24pm

DylanJM wrote: »

Yes I admit I posted that a bit hastily.

The soldiers did come under attack however

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdXr1XL2-ZU

And btw I'm not condoning the Israelis actions I just don't believe it's as black and white as you say it is.

The ship came under attack intially, in international waters. Like I said before, I think you're deliberately trying to muddy the waters in defense of Israel, for whatever reason. The post you threw into the mix above is a lot of nonsense, thrown together to do just that, muddy the waters so people will conciously or otherwise, decide that Israel was somewhat right, and the rest are just terrorist sympathisers.

Local-womanizer · 31-05-2010 2:26pm

No doubt they are getting attack,but by about 3 men. It looked as though that the troops had the situation under control,except for the few battering the heads off them with bars and sticks.

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:27pm

i'm not trying to muddy the waters. The point I was trying to make was 5 of the 6 ships surrendered without incident. I'll edit my previous post to clear that up.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:29pm

DylanJM wrote: »

i'm not trying to muddy the waters. The point I was trying to make was 5 of the 6 ships surrendered without incident. I'll edit my previous post to clear that up.

Just to add, I would also condemn the sectarian nature of the post, i.e. any Islamic connections justifies an attack on the ship, that is effectively the aim of that post. All very clever spin that confuses people into thinking Israel was right. All it was was an aid flotilla.

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:32pm

Look I have edited my post can we not just leave it at that.

ReacherCreature · 31-05-2010 2:40pm

International/domestic conditions and background aside. I'm disgusted at the people beating the soldiers with metal bars. It's dishearting, especially when one fast ropes and falls and is immediately set upon. No wonder they opened fire if this was the case. Their comrades were getting beat with pipes. IMO.

Ash.J.Williams · 31-05-2010 2:40pm

What has Israel to gain from all the provocation?
That's the question on my mind. This incident, the passport incident and the pummeling they gave their enemies a while back, all could have been passed off as national security if it was handled differently..however they go out of their way to appear to the world that they are arrogant butchers who operate outside international law. Are they inviting an attack?

gungun · 31-05-2010 2:42pm

@ Reacher Creature
I don't believe that deserved lethal force though, I mean, surely the commandos could have dealt with the bars a different way?

ReacherCreature · 31-05-2010 2:43pm

gungun wrote: »

I don't believe that deserved lethal force though, I mean, surely the commandos could have dealt with the bars a different way?

I was thinking that too. But one is *apparently* seriously injured after blows, maybe that's why they opened fire - out of fright. How they would have dealt with what looked like a racous crowd while comrades under attack I'm not sure.

SlabMurphy · 31-05-2010 2:44pm

ReacherCreature wrote: »

International/domestic conditions and background aside. I'm disgusted at the people beating the soldiers with metal bars. It's dishearting, especially when one fast ropes and falls and is immediately set upon. No wonder they opened fire if this was the case. Their comrades were getting beat with pipes. IMO.

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I was thinking that too. But one is *apparently* seriously injured after blows, maybe that's why they opened fire - out of fright. How they would have dealt with what looked like a racous crowd while comrades under attack I'm not sure.

Ah yes, it certainly sounds like Mary the 5' 2 " aid worker and George the elderly Christian attacked the brave macho boys from Israel :rolleyes:

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:45pm

ReacherCreature wrote: »

International/domestic conditions and background aside. I'm disgusted at the people beating the soldiers with metal bars. It's dishearting, especially when one fast ropes and falls and is immediately set upon. No wonder they opened fire if this was the case. Their comrades were getting beat with pipes. IMO.

Be disgusted. I'm disgusted, though not suprised, that Israel would use such an amount of force, invading the ship in international waters. I am disgusted with their blockcade of Gaza. I am disgusted with their media-spin which has kicked in today, denouncing the whole flotilla as terrorist sympathisers.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

What has Israel to gain from all the provocation?
That's the question on my mind. This incident, the passport incident and the pummeling they gave their enemies a while back, all could have been passed off as national security if it was handled differently..however they go out of their way to appear to the world that they are arrogant butchers who operate outside international law. Are they inviting an attack?

They are giving two fingers to the world, and teaching those on the ships a good lesson, don't try this again.

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:45pm

I dunno Ash it's a bit baffeling to say the least. Isreal are the strangest when it comes to things like this. Maybe they were paranoid that the ships were carrying weapons or whatever but God knows tbh.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:46pm

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I was thinking that too. But one is *apparently* seriously injured after blows, maybe that's why they opened fire - out of fright. How they would have dealt with what looked like a racous crowd while comrades under attack I'm not sure.

All would have been avoided if they didn't board the ship. I have no experience or knowledge in the naval end, but surely the ships could have been disabled?

DylanJM · 31-05-2010 2:48pm

Yeah the ships could have been disabled, it really is baffeling. Maybe they thought all the boats would surrender without resistance.

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 2:49pm

DylanJM wrote: »

I dunno Ash it's a bit baffeling to say the least. Isreal are the strangest when it comes to things like this. Maybe they were paranoid that the ships were carrying weapons or whatever but God knows tbh.

I very much doubt it. Israel has pretty effective intellegence, and IMO, the smuggled weapons theory is out of this world.

Where could the weapons come from? Ireland?
What kind of weapons? Hamas needs fairly high class weapons.
The ships were cleared from each country.
All ships were cleared from Turkey, and Turkey, who were getting on fine with Israel, have called it a lie the suggestion that weapons were on board.

Israel went out to make a statement, don't try this again. IMO.

They spokespersons are refering to "Israels shores".. They believe Gaza belongs to them, this is a fine example of religious extremeism. They believe the Palestinian territories belongs to them, and therefore have the right to be above international law. That is why Israel is so wreckless.

ReacherCreature · 31-05-2010 2:50pm

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Ah yes, it certainly sounds like Mary the 5' 2 " aid worker and George the elderly Christian attacked the brave macho boys from Israel :rolleyes:

I knew this fcuking sh!t would happen once I posted.

Look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdXr1XL2-ZU

You can clearly see your 'Mary' and 'George' set upon them.

Elite forces or not, years of training or not, you'd positively sh*t yourself if you were being beaten with metal bars. I'm not condoning anything, I'm sympathising with both sides and fearful of actions.

Impossible to have a decent argument here.

The ships should've been disabled before rash action.

ReacherCreature · 31-05-2010 2:51pm

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

All would have been avoided if they didn't board the ship. I have no experience or knowledge in the naval end, but surely the ships could have been disabled?

Agreed somewhat more action like that could have been taken.

SlabMurphy · 31-05-2010 2:51pm

DylanJM wrote: »

I dunno Ash it's a bit baffeling to say the least. Isreal are the strangest when it comes to things like this. Maybe they were paranoid that the ships were carrying weapons or whatever but God knows tbh.

More like they were out murdering unarmed civilians yet again.

SlabMurphy · 31-05-2010 2:55pm

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I knew this fcuking sh!t would happen once I posted.

Look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdXr1XL2-ZU

You can clearly see your 'Mary' and 'George' set upon them.

Elite forces or not, years of training or not, you'd positively sh*t yourself if you were being beaten with metal bars. I'm not condoning anything, I'm sympathising with both sides and fearful of actions.

Impossible to have a decent argument here.

The ships should've been disabled before rash action.

Well I think anyone with a single braincell would be very, very skeptical of an unarmed civilain launching attack against very heavily armed soldiers. But then you'll probably also tell me that the Zionist terrorists only came on board lokking for a bag of sugar - and were then attacked ??

ReacherCreature · 31-05-2010 2:58pm

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Well I think anyone with a single braincell would be very, very skeptical of an unarmed civilain launching attack against very heavily armed soldiers. But then you'll probably also tell me that the Zionist terrorists only came on board lokking for a bag of sugar - and were then attacked ??

The troop(s) were fast roping in and were set upon by the people, there's *rumours* that no shots were fired 'till troops were on deck. It was heat of the moment, anything could have happened I suppose.

The latter half of your post is ridiculous and irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Manach · 31-05-2010 3:01pm

Could I confirm for certain if the ship was in Israeli or International waters when this tragic incident took place? According to BBC "It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters".

Glenshane Pass · 31-05-2010 3:08pm

Manach wrote: »

Could I confirm for certain if the ship was in Israeli or International waters when this tragic incident took place? According to BBC "It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters".

International waters is correct but you're looking in the wrong place for 'certain' confirmation.

SlabMurphy · 31-05-2010 3:16pm

ReacherCreature wrote: »

The troop(s) were fast roping in and were set upon by the people, there's *rumours* that no shots were fired 'till troops were on deck. It was heat of the moment, anything could have happened I suppose.

The latter half of your post is ridiculous and irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Really, well according to little Israel's army spokesman - "The Israeli soldiers thought they were armed with paintball rifles dropping in looking for a bag of sugar. They were attacked with some been thrown from the 3rd deck to the 1st while others had to jump into the sea. Those remaining had no other choice but to open up with their paintball guns - only to discover that their attackers had switched the paintball ammo to real ammo to give Hamas propaganda. "

SlabMurphy · 31-05-2010 3:18pm

Manach wrote: »

Could I confirm for certain if the ship was in Israeli or International waters when this tragic incident took place? According to BBC "It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters".

If this happened in international waters, does that make it an act of piracy ?

gizmo555 · 31-05-2010 3:33pm

SlabMurphy wrote: »

If this happened in international waters, does that make it an act of piracy ?

That appears in effect to be the view of the Irish government:

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said he believes the blockade action taken by Israeli defence forces is a violation of international law.

He said he regarded the incident as 'very serious'.

Speaking in Dublin this morning, Mr Cowen said people were entitled to receive humanitarian assistance.

He said he questioned under what legal basis the Israeli Defence Forces had boarded ships on a humanitarian mission in international waters.

He said an international investigation into the events of last night was essential.

He added that he considered the action taken by the Israeli army to be disproportionate.

skelliser · 31-05-2010 3:56pm

Clearly the IDF have made a balls of this operation.
Just speculating:

Why didnt they use stun grenades, flash bangs, tear gas to clear the deck and then set up a secure position from which to take the ship. From the footage iv seen it shows commandos roping into an area swarming with civilians. A recipe for disaster. Seems like a botched job from the outset.

Although i must admit we havent seen more or all of the footage.

troubleshooter · 31-05-2010 5:24pm

gungun wrote: »

oh jeez:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Watched it on tv, looks like a very poorly planned operation, they sent into commandos when riot cops with cs gas, shields and battons was what was needed.

troubleshooter · 31-05-2010 5:27pm

skelliser wrote: »

Clearly the IDF have made a balls of this operation.
Just speculating:

Why didnt they use stun grenades, flash bangs, tear gas to clear the deck and then set up a secure position from which to take the ship. From the footage iv seen it shows commandos roping into an area swarming with civilians. A recipe for disaster. Seems like a botched job from the outset.

Although i must admit we havent seen more or all of the footage.

Obviously the Israelis are not as elite as the media and Hollywood tell us, Ive seen them close up their troops looked puny, scruffy physcially not all that.

bohsboy · 31-05-2010 5:28pm

Very badly organised from the Sky News footage I can see. As soon as the soldiers hit the deck they were individually swamped and got a ferocious hiding. Saw a couple being thrown overboard.

ReacherCreature · 31-05-2010 6:28pm

I agree, it seemed botched. Fast roping into a swarm of people was a pretty poor move; granted the deck isn't huge but they should have waited until dispersal. Also, in the Sky News footage and another clip released from IDF it shows one soldier dropping for a few minutes and no more; why were they not sending down troop after troop?

Does anyone have any idea of the numbers involved?

uprising2 · 31-05-2010 6:31pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

But no one is trying to muddy the waters(well I'am not anyway),this is just another incident to add to the list involving Israelis. And I'am sure that Hamas will be saying, "See,they will attack innocent civilians just like we said all the time!"

Its a disgusting action from the IDF, and is going to damage them in the PR end of things,and bolster support for Hamas.

It doesn't take HAMAS to say this for straight minded people to see these things for themselves, the IDF are a terrorist force, and will and do and always have killed innocent civilians.

And when did the zionist pigs ever give a sh1t about PR?

10 die in Israeli raid on aid flotilla

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