10 die in Israeli raid on aid flotilla

Local-womanizer

Local-womanizer wrote: »

On any other media outlet nothing has been said of petrol bombs or firearms.

Being beaten by sticks is not justification to use deadly force.

And any video that can be seen of the boarding shows about 3-4 people attacking the troops,the rest are standing clear of the chaos.

Im afraid that if your being beaten with a stick and you think you might be overpowered the risk is that your weapon could be taken from you and used against you. In essence because your armed and being attacked the risks involved increase. This thought may not occur to a genuine activist but it occurs to the soldiers and they will kill first rather than risk being killed.

Glenshane Pass

Deleted User wrote: »

Im afraid that if your being beaten with a stick and you think you might be overpowered the risk is that your weapon could be taken from you and used against you. In essence because your armed and being attacked the risks involved increase. This thought may not occur to a genuine activist but it occurs to the soldiers and they will kill first rather than risk being killed.

Thats true. But the whole operation itself is questionable to say the very least.

Glenshane Pass

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Thats true. But the whole operation itself is questionable to say the very least.

for sure! But sure so it the whole occupation of Palestine.

gungun

on the point someone made on the IDF not having appropriate equipment, I agree.
Surely low powered bean bags from shotguns would have worked well in this situation, and as mentioned, stun grenades

skelliser

Have the idf any history of assaulting ships, from today it seems they have very little experience. Would these commandos have the same training as say the sbs or navy seals?

BTW this is a military forum so can we leave the rights and wrongs and the politics to their own threads of which there is numerous.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

Obviously the Israelis are not as elite as the media and Hollywood tell us, Ive seen them close up their troops looked puny, scruffy physcially not all that.

One would think that there would be more objective comments in the Military forum but it looks like the shinners and commie types have set up camp here as well.

BlaasForRafa

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I agree, it seemed botched. Fast roping into a swarm of people was a pretty poor move; granted the deck isn't huge but they should have waited until dispersal. Also, in the Sky News footage and another clip released from IDF it shows one soldier dropping for a few minutes and no more; why were they not sending down troop after troop?

Does anyone have any idea of the numbers involved?

nah I counted at least four going in, the first two being attacked and two more following down. There should be at least 8 commandos per helicopter, we haven't seen the full footage and no after-action report has been released.

Its hard to say what the full sequence of events is as yet so I think people rushing in to judge is a bit presumptuous. I'd be interested to see the nationality of those killed and injured to see if any of them were Iranian as this "resistance" on the Marmara looked pretty organised.

oncevotedff

gatecrash wrote: »

somehow i think the viewpoint would be slightly different here though..... more giving out about a cocked up operation than the actual action itself!!

Why do you think it was a cocked up operation?

BlaasForRafa

oncevotedff wrote: »

Why do you think it was a cocked up operation?

One of the elementary things about abseiling onto a target is to have a safe landing area. The deck was swarming with people which should have been enough for the commander to wave off the operation.

Also I'm sure that deaths were not a part of the plan for this, that makes it a botched operation.

johngalway

If I was in Israels position I wouldn't have a problem intercepting those ships. It's a bit different to a leafy D4 suburb when rockets are raining down on your kids going to school and most of the states surrounding you want you gone for good.

Activists? give me a break.

This bloody country.

Avgas

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

One would think that there would be more objective comments in the Military forum but it looks like the shinners and commie types have set up camp here as well.

Well..I'm neither. But I think it sucks big time.

BTW we've still to find out more basic facts...like some sources are saying at least 9-10 dead, and perhaps as many as 19......so I think we will need to hear more....and distrust most of it.....

My 2 cents....

Warfare is politics by other means (Clausewitz)

This flotilla was an exercise in politics and propaganda….it was designed to put political pressure on the Israelis and yes maybe provoke an exterme over-reaction….

In this regard the organizers have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams….and the IDF have handed a complete political victory to them on a plate…..

IDF are widely seen by most people as having used disproportionate force here…I mean 1 or 2 dead people…. maybe…but try explaining 9-10?

You've lost.

The story is front page news all over the globe.
It has re-opened the question of Gaza.
It further undermines Israel’s tarnished reputation in the eyes of the ‘average’ TV viewer.
Does that matter? Yes. State reputation and legitimacy matter. Remember that during the 1950, 60s and 70s…many westerners supported Israel and believed they were the good guys…..legitimacy is vital for long-term state survival/stability-just ask Apartheid South Africa.

Like Bloody Sunday…no amount of bleating about a ‘mystery’ IRA shooter can justify 13 dead.

Yes, it is possible (no ..after seeing videos posted by DylanJM below seem almost certain) that some onboard resisted very violently….my guess is that there were more than a few with axes, knifes, bars, etc.

Did the IDF think they were just going high-five their commandos and sing ‘give peace a chance’?

Technically, many of these are lethal weapons, depending on how they were wielded, they could justify a use of lethal force at proximity.

However, in political and military terms such resistance should have been easily forseen and overcome proportionately…..

As many others have said here there are a wide range of weapons and tactics for less-than-lethal operations in this context…..pepper sprays, laser dazzlers, flash bangs, and perhaps CS/CN gas mixes (perhaps not ideal in a confined space less protestors try to start a fire). Shot gun with mixed loads could have been issued as well as Tasers…..no one piece of kit works 100%…but taken together they would dominate enough to ensure fatalities were probably lower than 10……

The Israeli’s are claiming that either/or

Some activists were armed and waiting and used firearms-no details what type of weapons though-concealed pistols?

And/or

Some activists either made attempts to seize (or did actually seize) Israeli weapons. Some reports mention 1 or 2 pistols. Maybe a low down quick draw pistol could be snatched...but a pistol is something that takes a bit of know-how and skill to use....

It will be interesting to see the evidence they offer of firearms.
It will be interesting to see the profile of the dead 'terrorists'-Iranian special forces in disguises (James Bondy?) or wannabe amateurs full of rage who weren't hugged enough as children....(I guessing more the latter).

However, remember it is a childishly common ruse to plant weapons on the scene of any contested shootout……has been known to happen in police and military contexts and one cannot rule out IDF would/could have done that….after the fact.

On the other hand it is entirely plausible that a small number of militants within the activists core did in fact have access to firearms and did use them. It would also be childishly simple to conceal a few pistols on a fairly big boat from a customs check.

If there were firearms, this unquestionably justifies a use of force, but once again only a proportionate, discriminate and well thought-out use of force.

The obvious mix should have been entry parties predominantly with less than lethal weapons followed or supported by designated marksmen/snipers for overwatch to deal with positively identified shooters.

Less-than-lethal was the only way to go here, if not actually an approach which would avoid or minimise boarding all together.

For example…..

1. Divers could have helped in fouling propeller shafts using netting/floats and thus stopping the boats without even boarding.

2. And if that wouldn’t work v.small bespoke explosive charges might create a slow sinking scenario or damaged propulsion shafts….

3. Or their navigation and communication systems could have been jammed….if fact the Time Online report suggests they were doing this from Cyprus waters onwards....delaying their departure....see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141258.ece

4. Ramming could also have been tried (actually probably as potentially lethal as use of firearms…but probably on TV it would play out as less violent)

5. They could have even have called their bluff and allowed the boats actually land in Gaza, but at a point of Israeli choosing, then seize the cargo on land, impound the boats, fine the skippers and hold the activists for months……making them pay in a way that would be away from the glare of headlines…

My point?

You have loads of options before you go for what seems like a confused night-time commando raid with hazy ROEs that are just not politically savvy.

Their entire operation seems flawed.

The outcome confirms this.

It was Politically and Media wise totally unsavvy = Serious Israel Political loss.

IDF = null point.

I’m sorry….I know many professional military people here will instinctively jump to the defence of the raiding teams and say they would also use lethal force if threatened with axes, etc.

That is not convincing knowing the political set-up this demo was.

It was a political ambush plain and simple and the IDF walked into it with size 13s.

You do not give your opponents what they want.

You do not behave as they expect.

Less-than-lethal weapons exist in the inventory for a reason

Welcome to 4th gen warfare via You Tube and Twitter.

Aside from whatever legal culpability that may arise from attacking a boat in international waters this way....(I'll leave that to the lawyers)....

Those planning and authorising the raid should be court-martialled and demoted at a minimum. Reason = Preventable and Foreseeable Own Goal

Those undertaking the raid should be treated probably much more leniently as regards their military record, especially if they were not trained and equipped to do this with minimum non-lethal force, then it is was much less their fault IMHO.

Glenshane Pass

johngalway wrote: »

If I was in Israels position I wouldn't have a problem intercepting those ships. It's a bit different to a leafy D4 suburb when rockets are raining down on your kids going to school and most of the states surrounding you want you gone for good.

Activists? give me a break.

This bloody country.

Echoing the drivel from the ambassador I see.

What has your theatrical rocket analogy to do with 19 humanitarians being murdered?

oceanclub

I've only seen parts of the footage while in the gym (planning to watch Newsnight to catch up with the news), but this being soc.military rather than soc.politics, I've be interested to hear people's opinions on what they thought the aim of this operation. I'm just an armchair/mouse warrior, but dropping an armed soldier in the middle of a hyped-up bunch of people with melee weapons strikes me as completely idiotic, verging on criminally negligent. I see where an planning operation might go wrong, but I can't fathom what the actual plan behind this was - that everyone on board would freeze and drop their weapons? Thoughts?

P.

DylanJM

Some videos of the incident.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbuzOWKxN2co

Not very clear but could very well be a knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

One soldier gets thrown overboard.

johngalway

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Echoing the drivel from the ambassador I see.

What has your theatrical rocket analogy to do with 19 humanitarians being murdered?

Echo yourself pal, I'm well able to speak for myself.

What were "humanitarians" doing attempting to run a blockade put there for good reason ie Hamas being a shower of murdering scumbags.

What were "humanitarians" doing there ignoring actual Government assurances that all humanitarian aid on those ships would be transferred to the Palistinians once those ships were checked in case of weapons.

Left wing sh1t stirring, that's what. Misguided martyers.

Avgas

Thanks..DylanJM....this just seems like they were totally overwhelmed.....why was somebody in the chopper not able to give cover with a few 40mm flash-bangs...or something....?

mcmoustache

johngalway wrote: »

What were "humanitarians" doing there ignoring actual Government assurances that all humanitarian aid on those ships would be transferred to the Palistinians once those ships were checked in case of weapons.

In international waters they could do what they like. Israel would have been within their rights to intercept once in Israeli waters. They didn't do that. You can't just forcibly board ships in international waters. There's a name for that activity and it's popular off the coast of Somalia.

Avgas

Maybe some of these posts belong more in the politics debate.... just my view.:rolleyes:.......okay you cannot totally separate the two...but what a lot of people IMHO would like is a more dispassionate military analysis based on what we know for sure...which is not that much really.

It seems strange they went ahead with the rope descent into what looks like on the FLIR grab as a v. hostile and tooled up crowd.

What would SBS/KSK/Seals do?

Or our own ARW?

Also does anyone know what Israeli unit it probably was that did the raid?

DylanJM

Not sure Avgas. How much effect would a flash bang have outside of an enclosed space?

Maybe tear gas would have been a better option, useless though if the soldiers didn't have respirators with them.

Glenshane Pass

johngalway wrote: »

Echo yourself pal, I'm well able to speak for myself.

What were "humanitarians" doing attempting to run a blockade put there for good reason ie Hamas being a shower of murdering scumbags.

What were "humanitarians" doing there ignoring actual Government assurances that all humanitarian aid on those ships would be transferred to the Palistinians once those ships were checked in case of weapons.

Left wing sh1t stirring, that's what. Misguided martyers.

Ah not worth it. Criminally misguided, lol.

BlaasForRafa

Avgas wrote: »

Maybe some of these posts belong more in the politics debate.... just my view.:rolleyes:.......okay you cannot totally separate the two...but what a lot of people IMHO would like is a more dispassionate military analysis based on what we know for sure...which is not that much really.

It seems strange they went ahead with the rope descent into what looks like on the FLIR grab as a v. hostile and tooled up crowd.

What would SBS/KSK/Seals do?

Or our own ARW?

Also does anyone know what Israeli unit it probably was that did the raid?

I'd presume it was S13, the Naval Commandos. They've boarded freighters bound for Gaza before that were loaded with arms bound for the palesinians. To my knowledge this is the first time that they've boarded a ferry type vessel.

I don't think that other naval forces would have tried a boarding onto a vessel with over 600 people on it. They should have put a few shots accross their bow to warn them off and if that didn't deter them then a shot into the engine room of the ferry would have stopped it in the water. Why they didn't use that option we can't tell yet.

ReacherCreature

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

nah I counted at least four going in, the first two being attacked and two more following down. There should be at least 8 commandos per helicopter, we haven't seen the full footage and no after-action report has been released.

Cheers for that. Earlier videos showed 2/3. A video I quote in this post backs that up.

skelliser wrote: »

Have the idf any history of assaulting ships, from today it seems they have very little experience. Would these commandos have the same training as say the sbs or navy seals?

BTW this is a military forum so can we leave the rights and wrongs and the politics to their own threads of which there is numerous.

Isreal's a country with a coast, surely these 'special forces' should be trained for coastal/sea ops. Shayetet 13 a Navy special forces' unit; they're said to have stormed the ship. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

DylanJM wrote: »

Some videos of the incident.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbuzOWKxN2co

Not very clear but could very well be a knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

One soldier gets thrown overboard.

Second one displays how the op may have been faulted. They're rapelling into a maelstrom.

Avgas wrote: »

Maybe some of these posts belong more in the politics debate.... just my view.

Agreed.

DylanJM wrote: »

Not sure Avgas. How much effect would a flash bang have outside of an enclosed space?

Maybe tear gas would have been a better option, useless though if the soldiers didn't have respirators with them.

I'm sure if a few flashbangs were fired out and time well with the Navy force's dropping it may have aided them somewhat.

Glenshane Pass

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Echoing the drivel from the ambassador I see.

What has your theatrical rocket analogy to do with 19 humanitarians being murdered?

If they were humanitarians without some other motive why didnt they dock at Ashdod like they were offered? Genuine question

It appears that some of the Israeli soldiers brought paintball guns - whats the story with that!

Avgas

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'd presume it was S13, the Naval Commandos. They've boarded freighters bound for Gaza before that were loaded with arms bound for the palesinians. To my knowledge this is the first time that they've boarded a ferry type vessel.

I don't think that other naval forces would have tried a boarding onto a vessel with over 600 people on it. They should have put a few shots accross their bow to warn them off and if that didn't deter them then a shot into the engine room of the ferry would have stopped it in the water. Why they didn't use that option we can't tell yet.

Thanks Blaas for the info, I agree with you on most of that but I think firing anything like a 76mm down into the hull ....would
(a) make bad TV...:rolleyes:
(b) might kill people if you get it wrong/unlucky......remember there were 600 people onboard....including members of the European Parliament.....okay...okay rethink...Harpoon missile anyone?;)

I retract that immediately...total gutter humour...for what is not funny and in v. poor taste..certainly any attempt to suggest that the presence of venerable MEPs would justify use of anti-ship missiles was adolescent and irresponsible ...in the extreme....

Avgas now pre-Kow-Tows in advance.....

BlaasForRafa

Avgas wrote: »

Thanks Blaas for the info, I agree with you on most of that but I think firing anything like a 76mm down into the hull ....would
(a) make bad TV...:rolleyes:
(b) might kill people if you get it wrong/unlucky......remember there were 600 people onboard....including members of the European Parliament.....okay...okay rethink...Harpoon missile anyone?;)

I retract that immediately...total gutter humour...for what is not funny and in v. poor taste..certainly any attempt to suggest that the presence of venerable MEPs would justify use of anti-ship missiles was adolescent and irresponsible ...in the extreme....

Avgas now pre-Kow-Tows in advance.....

Heh, well if Aongas O'Snotty was on board perhaps

Seriously thought they could warn the ships captain to evacuate the engine spaces before putting a shell in there. The only real concern would be causing a fire or knocking out electrical power to the other areas of the ship, real concerns for sure but less foolhardy than dropping commandos down into the midst of a mob.

I had thought that perhaps they could have taken out the helmsman as a warning with a Barret 50cal sniper rifle or something similar but aiming from a ship on a heaving sea would be pretty difficult.

I'm guessing that the commander on the scene will have had his face ripped off by Barak for bungling this operation. I don't think its right to blame the soldiers as they just reacted to being attacked but the planners and commanders of this mission should face a military enquiry for getting this wrong.

oncevotedff

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Also I'm sure that deaths were not a part of the plan for this, that makes it a botched operation.

Maybe the Israelis want to show they are serious about blockade runners and aren't really that worried about a few casualties. Thye've succeeded in their mission and killed not too many people. Mission Success for the IDF.

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

What has your theatrical rocket analogy to do with 19 humanitarians being murdered?

The 19 humanitarians were running supplies to the people who fire the rockets.

DylanJM

Yeah you can't really blame the soldiers. From their perspective they don't really have a choice other than to protect their own life and the lives of their comrades.

I mean if you put yourself into their shoes for a minute......you find yourself on deck being attacked with iron bars,chairs,etc by an angry mob. You either lay down and let them kill you, which is clearly what the people were trying to do, OR do WHATEVER you can to stay alive.

I don't care what any of these people condeming the acts of the soldiers say, if you found yourself in that situation you're not going to lay down and let somebody bludgen you to death.

That aside it is a tragic incident caused by the idiot who ordered them to rope in. I find it hard to believe that the soldiers were happy to be given the order.

ReacherCreature

oncevotedff wrote: »

Maybe the Israelis want to show they are serious about blockade runners and aren't really that worried about a few casualties. Thye've succeeded in their mission and killed not too many people. Mission Success for the IDF.

Mission success, somewhat but the mission looked and seemed complete disaster and other means could have been used prior to boarding too IMO.

ectoraige

SlabMurphy wrote: »

If this happened in international waters, does that make it an act of piracy ?

No, the soldiers involved have a military commission from a sovereign state which makes it one of:

a) Illegal warfare as they carried out the operation on the high seas against a registered and flagged vessel, assuming the operation was sanctioned and the actions supported by the Israelis, which appears to be the case
b) Murder, should it be a rogue operation initiated by the troops themselves, in which case they should be extradited to Turkey to stand trial.

Piracy is a non-military action.

Deleted User wrote: »

Im afraid that if your being beaten with a stick and you think you might be overpowered the risk is that your weapon could be taken from you and used against you. In essence because your armed and being attacked the risks involved increase. This thought may not occur to a genuine activist but it occurs to the soldiers and they will kill first rather than risk being killed.

This is why soldiers aren't meant to police civilians, and why the approach taken by the IDF was entirely wrong. Clearly the convoy was an attempt to test the resolve of the Israeli blockade, but the Israelis should have and easily could have handled it much more astutely.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm guessing that the commander on the scene will have had his face ripped off by Barak for bungling this operation. I don't think its right to blame the soldiers as they just reacted to being attacked but the planners and commanders of this mission should face a military enquiry for getting this wrong.

Clearly the commanders on the "ground" made a bad call, but it was compounding an even worse call by boarding the ship while still in international waters.

jill_valentine

Deleted User wrote: »

If they were humanitarians without some other motive why didnt they dock at Ashdod like they were offered? Genuine question

Generally, what happens is that the bulk of the supplies would be confiscated according to some very bizarre and secret list of contraband things the IDF think pose a threat, things like pasta, fruit and chocolate, and then eventually at some point in the future, a few scraps of it is passed on to Gaza as a token. Basically, the protestors believed - with good reason - that sod all of it would get where it was needed.

It's worth noting too - as I have in one of the other threads - that some of the protestors have had previous first hand experience of unlawful IDF shootings, which may have contributed to their less than hospitable reaction to the guys roping in. So on the one hand, the protestors reaction was foolish, but I don't think entirely unreasonable from their point of view in the heat of the moment.

The roping was incredibly misjudged in those circumstances. I'd like to think the commanders involved would face at the very least career consequences, but realistically, I suspect the whole thing will go quietly away and the soldiers off the rope will get some sort of commendation.

DylanJM

Another vid of the incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded

The more I see of this the more I can understand how it ended up with soldiers opening fire. It was clearly a very hostile situation.

Manic Moran

OK, I'm going to put the mod hat on here for a moment.

There are plenty enough threads over on AH and Pol about the evil Israelis or the stupid naive flotilla sailors. People are going to get very little leeway on this thread for such comments. Whether the Israelis should be enforcing a blockade is generally beyond the scope of this forum.

This thread is to focus on the operation itself, things that went right, things that went wrong, things which should have been tried instead.

Alles klaar, Damen und Herren?

NTM

gizmo555

oncevotedff wrote: »

Mission Success for the IDF.

Are you serious? It was an unmitigated catastrophe, which has the possibility of escalating into something much worse. Turkey was Israel's only significant ally in the Islamic world, with which it has in the past conducted joint naval manouevres and pilot training, and Turkey has also been a big customer for Israeli military hardware.

According to this report:

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

If it comes to pass, it will be a 'joint naval manouevre' of a very different kind, with 'unpredictable consequences' indeed . . .

Local-womanizer

As Manic has shown us the direction for us to go in,well then I don't blame the soldiers who were in that situation,self defense in fairness.

But whoever give the go-ahead to drop them onto a boat with 600 people,who it is pretty safe to presume have a severe dislike of Israel,needs their head checked.

I'am not to up on Naval methods of interception but would it be beyond the realms of possibility for the ship to be disabled and towed somewhere without the need of a boarding as was seen?

Or maybe even a request to board the ship with a number of armed personnel along with custom officials for a search of the boat?

Manic Moran

uprising2 wrote: »

And when did the zionist pigs ever give a sh1t about PR?

[mod]Oh yeah, missed this one.

I'm feeling generous. Just an infraction this time. [/mod]

NTM

Avgas

Okay now it gets interesting.

From Today’s Irish Times:

Expecting passive resistance, the first soldiers from the elite Shayetet 13 naval commando unit who were lowered from a helicopter at 4am yesterday on to the Turkish ship, were armed with paint ball guns in place of their usual rifles. They also had pistols but were under strict orders to only use them in life-threatening situations.

What on earth were S13 thinking?

Paint ball guns will NOT incapacitate right?

A taser will, a baton rd will, a CS gas greande will, even a flash bang will disorientate…a paintball is rubbish as a less than lethal weapon or am I missing something?

There are least two other disadvantages assuming the paint ball gun type was of a ‘realistic clone’ airsoft type (there are others that look obviously more toy/paintball like).

1. It looks like a real weapon-so any you tube or phone photos of Israeli’s firing paintballs can be sold as ‘live firing’……this is 90% a propaganda war. You lose.
2. The activists…many of whom are clearly nice people with strong views….also had a contingent who were fanatics enough to want to fight it out…IDF are supposed to have one of the best intels in world. They have (or had) good relationships with Turkish military…should have been easy to profile the serious people on board who could be trouble. If you board with what seem like real guns (or where they a type of unrealistic paintball?) and if you threaten to use them (or do)….the fanatics might well think….’all out attack …let’s give them everything back…’. Is that how it went?

Was the idea to carry real looking paintball guns and hope that their threatened of limited use would subdue?


Notice now the claim on firearms has seemingly morphed from they grabbed 1-2 of our pistols, to…they had ….concealed pistols…….which I’ve said on an earlier post is entirely possible…. No customs check is 100%

But it seems dumb that the guys going down the rope had just two options….
Paintball guns….OR pistols……that sounds hardly orthodox…

Would the “seeming” lack of use of CS/Respirators be got to do with dangers of CS in confined shipspace/fire…..and dangers of Respirators if they go into the water….(doesn’t sound right to me, but I was just thinking why they may not have used CS)

BTW if you look at the videos that DlyanJM has kindly posted…..I think the earlier one which was captioned as showing a S13 man being thrown into the water….is actually an S13 man being thrown down a deck level…you see it again but labeled differently from the (I assume) FLIR image on the heli……its the same incident, no? Obviously not clear...if it ever will be.

We should all be alert to a lot of ‘media manipulation’ here….by all sides…..

DylanJM

Avgas the paintball guns were firing some sort pepper ball rounds. They weren't firing regular paintballs.

Morpheus

From other reports it seems the remaining ships were boarded and there were no violent results, safe to assume then that if this ship was boarded AFTER the others, then based on the previous ops they would have expected an easy enough time.

They were ill equipped for what happened however, I think I saw one israeli with a shotgun with picatinny rails and a sight, he may have had bean bags in it?

Saw the paintballs and if you've ever played you'll know that they DO hurt but if a fanatic is psyched up enough to charge at you a paintball wont stop him unless you spray him in the face with a few.

I wonder if this, the so called flagship of the convoy, was packed deliberately with this crowd. They seemed very well prepared and itching for a fight, once the israeli soldier went down, they set about trying to butcher him, not very humanitarian whatever your stance.

As for the commando's ...
Israeli intelligence let them down,
their commanders let them down,
whoever made the final call on the go let them down,

once one guy hit the deck and was attacked, the others were committed regardless, in order to help save his life.

The mob could easily have grabbed each soldier as he hit the deck and pegged him over the side but instead they raised the threat level by trying to beat the living cr@p out of them and take weapons from them.

Im sure the israelis will say that they stopped the convoy in international waters on suspicion of carrying weapons of some sort. I think in this case there is nothing the soldiers did wrong (live fire permitted in most militaries in protection of your life/comrades life/to stop weapons being taken from you etc) - they simply should never have been in that situation with the wrong equipment in the first place.

I feel sorry for the commandos myself, it looks like they got the wrong end of the stick/iron bar in this case and tragically 10 - 20 people paid the price, one can only hope that those killed were mostly the ones trying to kill the soldiers (they were actually trying to kill them, not just disrupt the operation) - doesnt justify it at all but they werent exactly the picture of innocent humanitarians. Force out of proportion used by both sides, but Israels international image will suffer from this - however I get the impression that this never seems to bother them too much!

BlaasForRafa

Morphéus wrote: »

From other reports it seems the remaining ships were boarded and there were no violent results, safe to assume then that if this ship was boarded AFTER the others, then based on the previous ops they would have expected an easy enough time.

They were ill equipped for what happened however, I think I saw one israeli with a shotgun with picatinny rails and a sight, he may have had bean bags in it?

Saw the paintballs and if you've ever played you'll know that they DO hurt but if a fanatic is psyched up enough to charge at you a paintball wont stop him unless you spray him in the face with a few.

I wonder if this, the so called flagship of the convoy, was packed deliberately with this crowd. They seemed very well prepared and itching for a fight, once the israeli soldier went down, they set about trying to butcher him, not very humanitarian whatever your stance.

As for the commando's ...
Israeli intelligence let them down,
their commanders let them down,
whoever made the final call on the go let them down,

once one guy hit the deck and was attacked, the others were committed regardless, in order to help save his life.

The mob could easily have grabbed each soldier as he hit the deck and pegged him over the side but instead they raised the threat level by trying to beat the living cr@p out of them and take weapons from them.

Im sure the israelis will say that they stopped the convoy in international waters on suspicion of carrying weapons of some sort. I think in this case there is nothing the soldiers did wrong (live fire permitted in most militaries in protection of your life/comrades life/to stop weapons being taken from you etc) - they simply should never have been in that situation with the wrong equipment in the first place.

I feel sorry for the commandos myself, it looks like they got the wrong end of the stick/iron bar in this case and tragically 10 - 20 people paid the price, one can only hope that those killed were mostly the ones trying to kill the soldiers (they were actually trying to kill them, not just disrupt the operation) - doesnt justify it at all but they werent exactly the picture of innocent humanitarians. Force out of proportion used by both sides, but Israels international image will suffer from this - however I get the impression that this never seems to bother them too much!

The S13 had a good deal of experience in boarding freighters and indeed the other 5 vessels were subdued without any fighting but theres a big difference between boarding a freighter with large flat open spaces with only 10-20 crew and boarding a moving ferry packed with hundreds of unknown and unpredictable people with in a number of cases a virulent hatred of Israel.

I hope Israel has a complete enquiry into the decision making and planning process for this and who may have had dissenting opinions over how this operation was executed. Like you said, the commandos should never have been put in the position where inevitably things escalated out of control.

It may seem like Israel dosen't care about their image but you can bet that they do, I'll bet their diplomats around the world haven't slept since this operation happened!

SlabMurphy

Morphéus wrote: »

From other reports it seems the remaining ships were boarded and there were no violent results, safe to assume then that if this ship was boarded AFTER the others, then based on the previous ops they would have expected an easy enough time.

They were ill equipped for what happened however, I think I saw one israeli with a shotgun with picatinny rails and a sight, he may have had bean bags in it?

Saw the paintballs and if you've ever played you'll know that they DO hurt but if a fanatic is psyched up enough to charge at you a paintball wont stop him unless you spray him in the face with a few.

I wonder if this, the so called flagship of the convoy, was packed deliberately with this crowd. They seemed very well prepared and itching for a fight, once the israeli soldier went down, they set about trying to butcher him, not very humanitarian whatever your stance.

As for the commando's ...
Israeli intelligence let them down,
their commanders let them down,
whoever made the final call on the go let them down,

once one guy hit the deck and was attacked, the others were committed regardless, in order to help save his life.

The mob could easily have grabbed each soldier as he hit the deck and pegged him over the side but instead they raised the threat level by trying to beat the living cr@p out of them and take weapons from them.

Im sure the israelis will say that they stopped the convoy in international waters on suspicion of carrying weapons of some sort. I think in this case there is nothing the soldiers did wrong (live fire permitted in most militaries in protection of your life/comrades life/to stop weapons being taken from you etc) - they simply should never have been in that situation with the wrong equipment in the first place.

I feel sorry for the commandos myself, it looks like they got the wrong end of the stick/iron bar in this case and tragically 10 - 20 people paid the price, one can only hope that those killed were mostly the ones trying to kill the soldiers (they were actually trying to kill them, not just disrupt the operation) - doesnt justify it at all but they werent exactly the picture of innocent humanitarians. Force out of proportion used by both sides, but Israels international image will suffer from this - however I get the impression that this never seems to bother them too much!

If the refugee murderers/zionist terrorists forcibly board a ship in international waters, then surely it is the right of the people on board to defend themselves from this act of piracy/terrorism ?

SlabMurphy

troubleshooter wrote: »

Obviously the Israelis are not as elite as the media and Hollywood tell us, Ive seen them close up their troops looked puny, scruffy physcially not all that.

Totally agree. All this Bravo Two Zero BS about the IDF's near superhuman but kind hearted Special Forces - just like the SAS

Ping Chow Chi

Morphéus wrote: »

From other reports it seems the remaining ships were boarded and there were no violent results,

From the sketchy reports coming out it would appear that there probably was violence on the other ships when they where boarded, though not to the same level.

Selkies

Here is an opinion piece on the fiasco
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896841,00.html

Avgas

DylanJM wrote: »

Avgas the paintball guns were firing some sort pepper ball rounds. They weren't firing regular paintballs.

Thanks Dylan for the steer

Yep...you must be right...that would be more logical...sorry should have thought my post through more...early morning over here....:)

Re the paintball thing…..

..but do you have a reference for that…is it SOP for S13/IDF to use paintball guns with those loads? (I’m not saying your wrong…in fact what you say is the only thing that makes sense...just where you got that info)

It must have been something like this….http://www.pepperammo.com/paintball-pepperammo.php

And wikipedia have a page...of course....

This is from a reasonable BBC website summary of ‘what went wrong’’….although note we have many more details to hear about….and it is based on an Israeli journalist…..so take it with a degree of skepticism as always…..


Ron Ben Yishai mentions the bizarre use by the soldiers of paintball guns. You can see one of them in profile on the video. These, he said, were not effective. One wonders whether paint was actually in them or some other substance, but in any case they did not work.

But something more serious was happening. The reporter states that the protesters "attempted to wrest away [the soldiers'] weapons". They got hold of one handgun, he says, when one soldier, seen on the video, was thrown from the upper deck on to the lower.
The soldiers, who had started to use stun grenades, then asked for permission to use their firearms. They were given the go-ahead.
The Israelis claim that the activists got hold of two pistols and must have fired them as their magazines were found to be empty when recovered. Ben Yishai also quotes one commando as saying that the Israeli forces fired at someone holding a rifle, but no such rifle has been produced.

The reporter says the troops fired at "the rioters' legs". That may have been so, but it must have gone beyond that as well.

From:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10203333.stm

Also mentions that one activist was wearing a respirator….

So…it seems so far we have some sort of "evidence" (to be taken with a skip of salt) that they actually had reasonable equipment..including less than lethal…and had probably an intent to use minimal force…but the core error seems to have been to deploy in a way they could not easily retreat and were very exposed so that they could not use their less than lethal weapons effectively….

DylanJM

Theres a vid of some of the stuff seized from the ship, which includes a fair amount of respirators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded

Nah I don't have a source for what ammo they were using in the paintball guns, but can't see why they wouldn't use it, seems appropriate for the situation.

discus

SlabMurphy wrote: »

If the refugee murderers/zionist terrorists forcibly board a ship in international waters, then surely it is the right of the people on board to defend themselves from this act of piracy/terrorism ?

I'm not one to side with the slab, but bang on.

Morpheus

If the refugee murderers/zionist terrorists forcibly board a ship in international waters, then surely it is the right of the people on board to defend themselves from this act of piracy/terrorism ?

:rolleyes:

Im not condoning the landing of the commandos or the killings (allegedly in self defence), I dont have a huge amount of respect for the IDF, they liked to take shots at our lads when they were out there.

Nevertheless back on topic, why on earth would any HUMANITARIAN blatantly attack an armed soldier with knives and metal bars WITH THE OBVIOUS INTENT TO KILL HIM and NOT expect to get shot?

I think that if you see soldiers armed with paintball guns then the conclusion rapidly is that they obviously dont intend to kill YOU.

Thats not the actions of a crew of humanitarians, which this ship was supposedly made up of,there were definitely anarchists and activists waiting to have a go at the Israelis, you can see the metal bar going up and down on the soldiers body over and over and then another bloke being thrown from the top deck.

Not very humanitarian in my book, therefore I stand by my points, whilst I think that the soldiers did nothing wrong I also firmly believe that they should never have been sent in in this manner in the first place.

Maybe if they had sent in The Zohan it would've turned out differently....

SlabMurphy

Morphéus wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Im not condoning the landing of the commandos or the killings (allegedly in self defence), I dont have a huge amount of respect for the IDF, they liked to take shots at our lads when they were out there.

Nevertheless back on topic, why on earth would any HUMANITARIAN blatantly attack an armed soldier with knives and metal bars WITH THE OBVIOUS INTENT TO KILL HIM and NOT expect to get shot?

I think that if you see soldiers armed with paintball guns then the conclusion rapidly is that they obviously dont intend to kill YOU.

Thats not the actions of a crew of humanitarians, which this ship was supposedly made up of,there were definitely anarchists and activists waiting to have a go at the Israelis, you can see the metal bar going up and down on the soldiers body over and over and then another bloke being thrown from the top deck.

Not very humanitarian in my book, therefore I stand by my points, whilst I think that the soldiers did nothing wrong I also firmly believe that they should never have been sent in in this manner in the first place.

Maybe if they had sent in The Zohan it would've turned out differently....

Ah yes, a craven apology for the humanitarian murderers :rolleyes: Straight from the IDF News Desk, a source you can trust !!! :rolleyes:

Manic Moran

SlabMurphy wrote: »

If the refugee murderers/zionist terrorists forcibly...

<sigh>

Didn't I just post

There are plenty enough threads over on AH and Pol about the evil Israelis or the stupid naive flotilla sailors. People are going to get very little leeway on this thread for such comments.

And then moderate Uprising2 for his comment?

See you in a week.

NTM

Morpheus

Ah yes, a craven apology for the humanitarian murderers Straight from the IDF News Desk, a source you can trust !!!

That wasnt an apology, this thread is SUPPOSED to be about the military aspects of the raid, if you want to discuss these opinions of yours then do us all a favor and find another thread. Ive already said that I believed the IDF were wrong to come on board in this manner and equipped as they were, but then also stated that once on board they were systematically attacked, I didnt form that opinion from the Jerusalem Post, I got it from the video clips of the landings.

Have you gouged out your own eyes so that you couldnt seeing the extreme reaction of the "NOT humanitarians" to the soldiers hitting the deck?? Because this entire thread is plastered with videos that blatantly show the soldiers being hacked at with metal bars and chairs etc.

Maybe you should go to the walter mitty forum and post about how the israelis actually filmed a mock landing on a different ship to send to the media that made it LOOK like their guys were being beaten up, or maybe they created it all as a computer animation or maybe we all forgot to wear a tinfoil hat today...