Dublin-Cork Railway Line

NedNew2

KC61 wrote: »

Firstly railway speeds are still measured in mph, not kph.

Which to me says it all about Iarnrod Eireann. Stuck in the past, unwilling to change.

trellheim

what, you want to replace one consistent measure that the company knows and is used to, with another one for no real reason, thereby introducing a risk while everyone changes over ? removing and remapping all the mile markers with km markers ? has the ratio between the mile and the km changed since I last looked or wha ? Is a km sexy or something because it's a french metric ?

Also, we share a network with NIR, who also use MPH - why bother changing ?

Get out of it.

corktina

i was interested to note that in that Imperial measurement bastion that is the UK, the Motorway signs are all in miles but the marker posts along the way are in Km..... i bet there will be a row about that when "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" spots it...

Judgement Day

corktina - are sure? Sounds bizarre. Years since I was on a UK motorway but I don't remember the markers.

corktina

yep..id call them mileposts if they werent in Km....it doesnt actually say Km on them but the 160 one is 100 miles from London for instance... (thats the M4 can't vouch for other motorways...

NedNew2

trellheim wrote: »

what, you want to replace one consistent measure that the company knows and is used to, with another one for no real reason, thereby introducing a risk while everyone changes over ? removing and remapping all the mile markers with km markers ? has the ratio between the mile and the km changed since I last looked or wha ? Is a km sexy or something because it's a french metric ?

Also, we share a network with NIR, who also use MPH - why bother changing ?

Get out of it.

Trellheim, I don't want to go off topic on this thread but if you'd like to pm me I would be more than happy to debate with you. I respectfully disagree with you and am willing to discuss.

thereby introducing a risk while everyone changes over : We're talking about a couple of dozen drivers here. The new trains are already calibrated in kph. If millions of Irish drivers changed over in 2005 without incident I'm sure IE's finest can.

removing and remapping all the mile markers with km markers: Did I say anything about doing that? No. Leave them be. A simple plate can be added to each milepost to display the km distance if required.

has the ratio between the mile and the km changed since I last looked or wha ? answer is "wha" since the ratio is the same, why do you ask?

Is a km sexy or something because it's a french metric ? A french metric? More accurate to say a logical measurement system of french origin, used in every single country in the world bar the US, UK, Burmah and one other African country; 96% of the world population. If you consider that "french" or "sexy" then go for it!

My point originally was that it would appear symptomatic of IE as an incumbent, state run monopolistic behemoth to be antidynamic and resistant to adapt to modern practices in general. Its a type of organisation that only exists in Ireland today because it is immune to the challenges of free market competition.

If you'd rather take a rant and tangent on my original comment then feel free to do so.

D'Peoples Voice

DWCommuter wrote: »

A 1993 quote from ex CIE Chairman, Paul Conlan;

This quote is taken from the 1993 launch of City Gold. Furthermore, 20 years earlier a CIE chairman also announced a considerable reduction in journey times on this route. Yet they have consistantly failed to honour the promises. despite the investment.

to be fair, I blame the media, surely to god they should be questioning/pesturing IR about why they can't develop a railway line between the two biggest cities in this country that is capable of running trains at high speed.
It would be one thing if it were the WRC we are talking about, but think of the synercies of properly developing this line from Dublin as far as Portarington, a lot of the same line is used to get to Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Limerick city and Galway city!
This should have been a prerequiste to any development in railways, yet we spend the money on the WRC instead:mad:

Judgement Day

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

to be fair, I blame the media, surely to god they should be questioning/pesturing IR about why they can't develop a railway line between the two biggest cities in this country that is capable of running trains at high speed.
It would be one thing if it were the WRC we are talking about, but think of the synercies of properly developing this line from Dublin as far as Portarington, a lot of the same line is used to get to Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Limerick city and Galway city!
This should have been a prerequiste to any development in railways, yet we spend the money on the WRC instead:mad:

It's not about money - CIE/IE have had tons of money for the Dublin/Cork line and it has always had the best of everything - track/signalling/locos/rolling stock. It's about CIE who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. But you are right it isn't helped by our lazy media not asking the hard questions. RTE are reluctant to have a go at another state agency and many other current affairs magazines don't wish to lose their nice little earners in the form of lavish, useless advertising used to buy their silence.

KC61

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

to be fair, I blame the media, surely to god they should be questioning/pesturing IR about why they can't develop a railway line between the two biggest cities in this country that is capable of running trains at high speed.
It would be one thing if it were the WRC we are talking about, but think of the synercies of properly developing this line from Dublin as far as Portarington, a lot of the same line is used to get to Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Limerick city and Galway city!
This should have been a prerequiste to any development in railways, yet we spend the money on the WRC instead:mad:

The complete lack of any specialist transport journalists who know what they are talking about in this country does not help.

monument

Irish Rail have just -- in the last two days -- rejected a request I made for information on this under the Access to Information on the Environment regulations.

They claimed the information and reports I requested are not environmental information, I don't accept this given the very wide scope of the AIE regs.

AIE includes the built environment -- ie track, track bed etc -- and the affect the land has on these -- water, land slides etc -- is environmental in its self. It also includes anything in the environment (including built environment) which could affect human health and safety, given speed restriction are done on safety grounds, there's quite a link.

Anyway, for these reasons and possibly others, I will be seeking an internal appeal, followed by an external appeal if needed.

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

The complete lack of any specialist transport journalists who know what they are talking about in this country does not help.

Trust me, the media aren't interested in this kind of journalist and aren't willing to pay for the privelage either. I'd go as far as saying that a specialist transport journalist is a comparetively important requirement as your George lee's etc. Misinformation in the form of literal press release reproduction, badly written articles and a lack of inciteful commentary and questioning has allowed the spread of crap.

I spent many years informing journalists only to see their personal and misinformed opinions ending up on the page. That said there were a few who produced good copy, but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor, based on the advice they got in college. Add to that the horrendous conflict of interests between the media and transport related entities and it all gets bogged down in mediocrity.

monument

DWCommuter wrote: »

Trust me, the media aren't interested in this kind of journalist and aren't willing to pay for the privelage either. I'd go as far as saying that a specialist transport journalist is a comparetively important requirement as your George lee's etc.

The problem is fairly complex at this stage. From lower pay, striping down media jobs for greater profits long before the downturn, journalism schools selling a product. But all the blame can't be put on media outlets - journalists have become like nomads compared to what they use to be, investing too much in somebody who could leave next year isn't a great idea.

Knowing something and proving it is another problem -- getting the required documents, information etc can be next to imposable.

The problem often is general news room (and subeditors) covering too much of what they don't fully understand or know enough. A transport correspondent would not solve everything (even if such would be in my own self interest), general journalists would still need to know what they are covering.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Misinformation in the form of literal press release reproduction, badly written articles and a lack of inciteful commentary and questioning has allowed the spread of crap.

Yeah, I would say press releases are not a problem in them selves, the problems come from copying them literally, not understanding them, misunderstanding them, not being questioning, looking at one bit of a 100 page document etc. Because the nationals are looking for a national and sexy angle, you get the kind of thing where Metro North is called an airport metro -- and then people miss the point that this is also due to sever Swords (and that's regardless of anybody's views on metro).

DWCommuter wrote: »

I spent many years informing journalists only to see their personal and misinformed opinions ending up on the page. That said there were a few who produced good copy, but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor, based on the advice they got in college.

Angles are made up for what the editor wants, that's a problem, but the other problem here is your view will often differ with so many other. Who is right and who is wrong?

DWCommuter wrote: »

Add to that the horrendous conflict of interests between the media and transport related entities and it all gets bogged down in mediocrity.

What conflict of interests? Are you just talking about advertising?

highlydebased

DWCommuter wrote: »

I spent many years informing journalists only to see their personal and misinformed opinions ending up on the page. That said there were a few who produced good copy, but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor, based on the advice they got in college. Add to that the horrendous conflict of interests between the media and transport related entities and it all gets bogged down in mediocrity.

Thats very harsh and a sweeping generalisation.

Have you actually any idea how a newspaper/publication works? Journos would love to have their actual opinion printed but it is to suit the mantra of the paper- thats the way it works. So come down off your high horse! :mad:

DWCommuter

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Thats very harsh and a sweeping generalisation.

Have you actually any idea how a newspaper/publication works? Journos would love to have their actual opinion printed but it is to suit the mantra of the paper- thats the way it works. So come down off your high horse! :mad:

Why don't you actually read my post again, because you just contradicted yourself. Remember that I said this;

but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor,

For the record...yes I do know in a detailed manner how a newspaper/publication works, hence the reason I referred to editors calling the shots which would suit the "mantra" you refer to.

Therefore I suggest you climb down from the high horse that my post encouraged you to climb up on.

highlydebased

DWCommuter wrote: »

Therefore I suggest you climb down from the high horse that my post encouraged you to climb up on.

I'm sorry- but I'm up on no high horse I can assure you. I have no desire to explore how omnicious you appear on everything seemingly- perhaps these journalists had no desire to explore said either! :pac:

sdanseo

Neon you kinda just reaffimed what he said if anything - just in a different way. Bottom line is the journos, through will or forced hand, make up random crap and fill gaps according to the mood of the editor.

Transport articles, in general - and some generalisations have to be made - are pure crap. Any time I read of a new opening of some piece of infrastructure, or some new development, chances are I've heard considerably more information that's much nearer the truth on this forum. They seem to just take the propaganda spewed by, in this case, IE, and alter the words a bit. I haven't seen a totally unbiased, objective analysis of an infrastructure project (as opposed to a simple article telling me what's happening, when and how much under or over budget it is) any time recently short of Kevin Myers' little rant about the N7.

Pete_Cavan

Two articles in the Irish Times today;

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/3m-cork-railway-station-upgrade-set-to-in-crease-numbers-using-mainline-and-commuter-services-1.2105054

I am not familiar with Kent Station or the previous redevelopment plans but I think it is fair to say that they have been scaled back a lot, although this is probably for the better.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/planned-upgrade-on-cork-dublin-line-will-cut-travel-time-say-iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-1.2105076

Any improvements to increase the speed of trains is to be welcomed but this quote is disappointing when read in conjunction with post #19 in this thread;

Mr Kenny confirmed that a €10 million upgrade of an 80km stretch of mainline track between Portlaoise in Co Laois and Hazelhatch in Co Kildare beginning in March will cut Cork-Dublin travel times by 15 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes.

Is the KPR2 expected to deliver any significant time savings for intercity and commuter services on their approach to the city?

cgcsb

Some welcome announcements, years late but to be welcomed none the less.

Idbatterim

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

GerardKeating

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

If we had the money, we could extend the "4 track" Kildare route project into DART underground, and effectively move Heuston to Saint Stephens Green.

Then (if Metro North was also a 4 track DART) have the Belfast trains serve the Airport before arriving in Stephens Green.

Idbatterim

If we had the money, we could extend the "4 track" Kildare route project into DART underground, and effectively move Heuston to Saint Stephens Green.

Then (if Metro North was also a 4 track DART) have the Belfast trains serve the Airport before arriving in Stephens Green.

Its not the money, its the will in my opinion. They will have a nice giveaway budget this year, well over a billion no doubt, there is the money. Infrastructure here in general seems to be a do as little as you can get away with job...

SpaceTime

It's about a 7 minute trip to the City Centre from Heuston and it's also not necessarily where most people want to go either.

Idbatterim

It's about a 7 minute trip to the City Centre from Heuston and it's also not necessarily where most people want to go either.

after you get out, walk to the luas stop, wait on the luas and then get off at your chosen stop...

SpaceTime

Idbatterim wrote: »

after you get out, walk to the luas stop, wait on the luas and then get off at your chosen stop...

That's still approximately 7 minutes.

I honestly can't remember it ever taking me more than 10 minutes to get to Jervis / O'Connell Street area.

I also can't think of very many cities anywhere in the world where the main train station's right in the main street either.

L1011

Amsterdam. There's not many more though...

donvito99

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

Idbatterim wrote: »

after you get out, walk to the luas stop, wait on the luas and then get off at your chosen stop...

Cities are not built around train stations.

I'm not not going to take a train to Dublin because it's a few kilometres west of O'Connell Street.

Idbatterim

Cities are not built around train stations.

I'm not not going to take a train to Dublin because it's a few kilometres west of O'Connell Street.

if I want to go into the centre, travel time is roughly the same, I dont have to mess around with changing to luas or another bus and the bus is quite a bit cheaper as is usually the case, I take the bus every time...

crc

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

I think your point is nearly right, but let me elaborate. Lots of people certainly do want to go to the city centre, but we all know that moving Heuston 3km to the east is a bit of a non-runner. My view is that people want to get to all parts of Dublin, including the city centre, but also the airport, Ballsbridge, Sandyford, East Wall, heck even Maynooth! DART Underground is the only thing that would reliably, quickly and efficiently move large numbers of people around the city. It's an expensive project, but in my view offers the best return especially in terms of route options.

Idbatterim

I agree crc, the gridlock here has returned and is only going to get worse, they need DU badly. The thing is, if people dont have a car, they may not have a problem with multiple connections, but for those that do, some may contemplate taking public transport, but I weigh it up, too much messing around and Ill stay in my comfortable car that I pay a good chunk in motor tax for every year and I am sure there are a lot like me...

stehyl15

The Phoenix park tummel should be reopened to passenger traffic so trains can go to conolly which is far more central than Hueston. The line should be electrified and they could always use a third rail it seems to work in the UK why shouldn't it work in Ireland