Crimes against children: Prime Time

Nevyn

Did anyone else see this weeks Prime Time?
It;s up on the rte website for a while if you didn't.
Warning it is harrowing to watch as it is about the sharing of child porn and child abuse images on the internet, how abusers are filming the abuse and then sharing it and how they will use chat sites and socail networking sites to target and groom kids.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1073931

How much internet access do you kids have?
Where are they when they are on the internet?
Do you check what sites they have been on and the chat logs?
Do you allow your kids to have profiles on sites?
Have you sat your kids down and talked to them about staying safe online?

scallywags

id say ireland is easily one of the most secure interms of child protection considering what happened in the past. Would not surprise me one bit if the attempted child abductions were just some young fellas 'having a laugh', whatever you get your thrills from.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

How much internet access do you kids have?
Where are they when they are on the internet?
Do you check what sites they have been on and the chat logs?
Do you allow your kids to have profiles on sites?
Have you sat your kids down and talked to them about staying safe online?

With so many devices now with internet access, mobile phone's/gaming console's etc I think it's pretty pointless to try and "monitor" the usage.

Educating them on internet usage etc will go a lot further than trying to monitor every bit of activity.

Engage with them, discuss what they do online with them and keep the communication open and honest they same way you would talk about anything else seems to be the way forward.

Nevyn

There are mobile phones which are not smart phones which dont' have a camera or net acess.

I completely agree about fostering a relationship with your kids which is about respect and openness so that they do come to you but how can parents educate kids on the dangers if they aren't aware of them?

Deliverance

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are mobile phones which are not smart phones which dont' have a camera or net acess.

I completely agree about fostering a relationship with your kids which is about respect and openness so that they do come to you but how can parents educate kids on the dangers if they aren't aware of them?

That is very true, a lot of kids by design for one reason or another will not come to the parents and will view the parents as the enemy of their freedom. Parents will never be 'hip' people and indeed are an embaressment to the youngsters.

In my opinion: The net is young and it has yet to mature in a responsible way. Much like real life but in a different virtual way.

My belief and opinion is that the use of the net should be taught to kids at an early age in much the same way that life is taught. i.e. don't talk to strangers and report to the parent about any potential abuses.

I am working in this area and it is food for thought for me to apply whatever I can to possibly educate parents on how to protect their children online.

Education is definately a key area to stop these evil scum from making the same terrible impact that they had with the church.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are mobile phones which are not smart phones which dont' have a camera or net acess.

I completely agree about fostering a relationship with your kids which is about respect and openness so that they do come to you but how can parents educate kids on the dangers if they aren't aware of them?

I'm sure there are, but how do you monitor when they're using their friends mobile that has? when they're in an internet cafe? when they're in a friends house where they can use a laptop/pc in a bedroom?

On how are they suppose to educate them on the dangers would be to make sure that they make themselves aware of it by educating themselves?


the same way one would anything else, drugs for example.

Nevyn

The net is only starting to become mainstream and parts of it are becoming respectable
(this place for example) but the learning curve was there but it was soemthing people taught
themselves about or via your mates online or in chat rooms, not every home had a pc or net access
so it was a hobby and people educated themselves.

These days most houses have at least two internet capable devices if not more and the tech
is everywhere but parents don't know what is out there and it's hard to educate when so often
the subject is high jacked and there is a knee jerk reaction.

There has to be a balance between the internet is full of freaks and scarey strangers
and the internet is a good place to stay in touch and meet new people.

I think the same way there are drug out reach programs to teach parents about drugs there should be
the same about the internet and even sex ed. If we want parents to be able to teach their kids
to be safe they need to know what they are talking about and how to talk about it.

The stay safe program that runs in schools has an online component
http://www.staysafe.ie/parents.htm

The ISPCC and the scouts even have them
http://www.ispcc.ie/Under-18/Staying-Safe-Online/Staying-safe-on-social-networking-sites
http://www.scouttalk.ie/0pages/kidsafety.php

http://childwatch.ie/page8.php
Should this program not run in all schools?
At least there is the option for it to be ran, I wonder how many parent can make this happen in thier schools.

Teachers & Parents

We have received a number of requests from individual teachers and parents groups who have an interest in receiving a presentation.

We are happy to give as much assistance as possible to such vital resources as parents and teachers, though it is likely that this will occur in the evenings or at weekends and while we deliver our material free to students during normal school hours, we would expect to recoup the cost of 'out of office hours' effort.

Please feel free to contact Gavin at Komplett Ireland to discuss arrangements.
Gavin Murray (Gavin.Murray@komplett.com)
Assistant to the Country Manager, Komplett Ireland
Unit 287, Block G, Blanchardstown Corporate Park Phase 2
Ballycoolin, Dublin 15

Office Phone: 01 861 0208

Should there not be a younger one aimed at kids in primary school as well?

cynder

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1073931

How much internet access do you kids have?
Where are they when they are on the internet?
Do you check what sites they have been on and the chat logs?
Do you allow your kids to have profiles on sites?
Have you sat your kids down and talked to them about staying safe online?

Didnt see the programme,

my kids have Internet access could be 1 hour could be 3-4 hours, (kids ages 3,4 and 10)

The 2 younger kids are on playhouse Disney and Disney on line games also have there own user details, they can only go into certain sites. Not permitted to go onto chat sites this is restricted.

10 year old has face book account - we have passwords and monitor her use. No details go on to sites, other chat sites are restricted.
****** if moderator wants to edit below please do so********
must add, she wants to be a model and typed in young models into google, she clicked on a site and called me in, i saw it and turned if off, but it began to niggle me, so i found the site again and contacted some sort of Internet regulation board ( cant remember the name - it was part of the iwf.co.uk - web address in in the next comment box below ) and complained about it ( must add it took me hours to find), i checked 2 days later and google had taken it off their search page but the page could still be accessed if you typed the web address into the browser, that was about 2 years ago. also on the google page it said that some sites were omitted due to investigation into child pornography.

I think it should be made easier to report suspect sites.

In response to a legal request submitted to Google, we have removed 2 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read more about the request at ChillingEffects.org. http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=2763

this is what came up and still does .

cynder

"child pornography" means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where?
(A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(B) such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or
(D) such visual depiction is advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression that the material is or contains a visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct.

Many courts apply the so-called Dost test to determine if a given image is considered to be "lascivious" under the statute. United States v. Dost, 636 F. Supp. 828, 832 (S.D. Cal. 1986), aff'd sub nom., United States v. Wiegand, 812 F.2d 1239, 1244 (9th Cir. 1987) set forth a six factor test:
(1) whether the genitals or pubic area are the focal point of the image;
(2) whether the setting of the image is sexually suggestive (i.e., a location generally associated with sexual activity);
(3) whether the child is depicted in an unnatural pose or inappropriate attire considering her age;
(4) whether the child is fully or partially clothed, or nude;
(5) whether the image suggests sexual coyness or willingness to engage in sexual activity; and
(6) whether the image is intended or designed to elicit a sexual response in the viewer.
See Dost, 636 F. Supp. at 832.


http://www.iwf.org.uk/howto/tools.1.3.htm for uk to report suspect sites

https://www.hotline.ie/makeareport.php for ireland to report suspect sites

ntlbell

grindelwald wrote: »

Didnt see the programme,

my kids have Internet access could be 1 hour could be 3-4 hours, (kids ages 3,4 and 10)

The 2 younger kids are on playhouse Disney and Disney on line games also have there own user details, they can only go into certain sites. Not permitted to go onto chat sites this is restricted.

10 year old has face book account - we have passwords and monitor her use. No details go on to sites, other chat sites are restricted.

must add, she wants to be a model and typed in young models into google, she clicked on a site and called me in, i saw it and turned if off, but it began to niggle me, so i found the site again and contacted some sort of Internet regulation board ( cant remember the name ) and complained about it ( must add it took me hours to find), i checked 2 days later and google had taken it off their search page but the page could still be accessed if you typed the web address into the browser, that was about 2 years ago. also on the google page it said that some sites were omitted due to investigation into child pornography.

I think it should be made easier to report suspect sites.

In response to a legal request submitted to Google, we have removed 2 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read more about the request at ChillingEffects.org. http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=2763

this is what came up and still does .

A lot of the software packages available for "restricting" content etc are very easy to circumvent so I would be careful of how much trust you put in them as it might generate a false sense of security, as they get a bit older they might find ways around it.

cynder

ntlbell wrote: »

A lot of the software packages available for "restricting" content etc are very easy to circumvent so I would be careful of how much trust you put in them as it might generate a false sense of security, as they get a bit older they might find ways around it.

Thanx

Husband is a software developer, so we are ok. Others might not be though.

Nevyn

We limit what the kids can access with a filter on the router and they know if they want to look at any other sites they can ask. Both thier pcs are in a public part of the house where they are supervised. But not all parents are as net savy and some will think having net nanny unfortunatly is enouhg.

Hotline.ie is who to get in touch with if you see childporn on the net by chance, you can report the site.

ntlbell

The problems with hotline.ie and other services is if the server the site is hosted on in another jurisdiction there's not a lot they can do.

Nevyn

True but it gets you personally out of hot water as viewing even accidentally such an image means you have infact downloaded it and have a copy in your pc cache and there fore can be done for the possession of child pron images and hotline to pass on any information to interpol.

Hellrazer

I was watching this and it definately reinforced my views of not letting our 12 yo use facebook/bebo etc.

How much internet access do you kids have?--12 year old gets 2-3 hours a day.Mainly because at the minute shes on crutches and in a wheel chair and cant be outside with her friends.

Where are they when they are on the internet?--Pc is in the family room downstairs although she does have a laptop in her room.

Do you check what sites they have been on and the chat logs?--Yep every day.

Do you allow your kids to have profiles on sites?--Nope--No facebook,bebo etc.

Have you sat your kids down and talked to them about staying safe online?--We`ve tried to but you know at that age she considers herself as knowing if and when someones up to something.I suppose she considers herself as having a good bit of cop on.

Klingon Hamlet

Hellrazer wrote: »

...although she does have a laptop in her room...

Do you allow your kids to have profiles on sites?--Nope--No facebook,bebo etc.

How do you stop her setting up bebo/facebook? Cos some kids are smartenough to delete particalr entries in their history...or even, use Firefox for one and IE for other sites, if you get me...

(Not to worry you, just genuinely curious as too how much power we parents have...!)

Nevyn

You can check the traffic on the home network in the router's log,
there you can see what sites have been visited.

Klingon Hamlet

Thaedydal wrote: »

You can check the traffic on the home network in the router's log,
there you can see what sites have been visited.

What about for non-technically-minded folk? I'm pretty decent with tech but I didn't know you could do that and I'd imagine the vast majority of parents wouldn't have a clue. Is there software that could, say Red Flag certain sites by email?

Nevyn

You can usually set the router to send a daily report by email.
Looking at the logs of the router isn't that hard, you just follow the instructions in the manual on how to log into it and read them.

calum

grindelwald wrote: »

10 year old has face book account - we have passwords and monitor her use.

You do know it's against Facebook's terms and conditions for anyone under the age of 13 to have an account?

Quality

I just watched part if this programme found it a bit disturbing!
My daughter would use the net for maybe two hours a week. She goes to the same websites all the time! I am usually in the room with her when she is on the net.

I was shocked to see the messages being sent to the ficticious child "Lucy"! But is it a fair and true picture? My daughter is on bebo 2-3 years now. She has never been contacted ie frien request or message from someone she doesn't know?

Surely they must have done something to make poor "Lucy" an easier target for the perverts?

Hellrazer

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

How do you stop her setting up bebo/facebook?

We havent stopped her.We`ve told her that we`d prefer to wait until shes a good bit older and shes agreed to that.

Cos some kids are smartenough to delete particalr entries in their history...or even, use Firefox for one and IE for other sites, if you get me...

Not if you have the pc set up in such a way that "internet options" tab cant be modified ie she cant delete the history.The IT lad in work showed me how to do it.If I remember right its to do with blocking that tab when a user is set up.This also stops her from installing any other programmes ie firefox without the admin password.

Hellrazer

Quality wrote: »

Surely they must have done something to make poor "Lucy" an easier target for the perverts?

Agreed.It stinks of sensationalist journalism.It IS probably taking place quite often but I find it hard to believe that a new user suddenly logs on to a site (I missed a bit of the programme) and then is inundated with perverts trying it on.
Surely this "grooming" thing would take place over a much longer period in order for the child to gain their trust.Theyre hardly going to introduce themselves and start asking the questions straight away that were asked to Lucy.

The Corinthian

Hellrazer wrote: »

Agreed.It stinks of sensationalist journalism.It IS probably taking place quite often but I find it hard to believe that a new user suddenly logs on to a site (I missed a bit of the programme) and then is inundated with perverts trying it on.

I'd imagine they specifically set up a profile that would act as a 'honey trap', thus attracting such deviants in far greater numbers than an 'average' profile would. That does not mean that an 'average' profile would not attract them, only that being less obviously attractive, might take far longer.

When I was seven years old (just after having arrived in Ireland and still speaking more Italian than English), I was making the ten minute walk home from school when a car stopped by me. There were two people in it, a man (driving) and a woman (she had darkish curly hair I remember) who offered me a toffee to come with them.

I politely declined, keeping a safe distance from the car, partially because I didn't like toffee but mainly because I was completely aware of what they were up to. This is because I had always been taught to be suspicious of strangers, combined with an awareness of child abductions in Italy at the time by groups, like the Red Brigades, for ransom - which I assumed was their motivation (a sexual one only occurred to me years later).

The same principles can be taught to a child to protect them from grooming IMHO, and are a hundred times more effective than filtering or locking them out of the Internet and effectively wrapping them up in cotton wool.

Nevyn

The stay safe program which runs in schools does impart that message and it's up to parents to build on it. We do that as well and the internet restrictions are no more then locking out the 'adult' channels on the tv and not letting them watch 18 movies or play most 18 games.

It comes down to what they are emotionally able to deal with, the lack of considering a sexual component is part of what makes up a child's innocence and that will be chipped away fast enough in this world as it is with out them stumbling across porn on the internet or the likes of rotten.com ect.

ntlbell

Hellrazer wrote: »

Not if you have the pc set up in such a way that "internet options" tab cant be modified ie she cant delete the history.The IT lad in work showed me how to do it.If I remember right its to do with blocking that tab when a user is set up.This also stops her from installing any other programmes ie firefox without the admin password.

That's all well and good, but to be fair, most kids run rings around their parents when it comes to IT.

expecting "joe parent" to be applying local group policies and such hacks to IE it's just not going to happen.

plus it's so easily circumvented, it just leads to a false sense of security.

When their young, make sure your with them and educate them.

As they get older, continue to educate.

As I said before, the restrictions more than likely won't be on their friends pc's or in school or at the library or in a net cafe etc.

cynder

calum wrote: »

You do know it's against Facebook's terms and conditions for anyone under the age of 13 to have an account?

Yes. of course i do, thats why we said she was older......

She mainly plays on the games. The only friends she has are family and a couple of school friends (of the same age).....

I would rather have control over her facebook then her set up her own facebook account.
She also has skype on her laptop and talks to friends using that.

syklops

Do you check what sites they have been on and the chat logs?--Yep every day.

Dont take this the wrong way but do you read her Diary aswell? Whats needed is an openness towards the internet. If she knows you read the history everyday then she is not going to use the home computer to look at or do anything that she thinks you wont approve of. She will do it in school, or at a friends house. Which results in a false sense of security for you and it still leaves her vulnerable.

Monitoring internet access does not necessarily mean you have to go through the logfile on the router looking for hints she has been up to no good. Chances are you wont find any anyway.

Also, blanket banning kids on chatrooms is a waste of time as most sites have some form of communication function, be it discussion fora, comments fields, chat applets etc. For example, boards is not a chatroom. It has not chat applets, but is still a danger.

Quality

The thoughts of some pervert taking to my daughter like what was on the programme makes mys stomach turn however I would not ban her from the net or bebo based on that programme, yes t is sick but prime time were obviously out to find the perverts.

alrightcuz

ive got 3 nieces and a nephew on bebo and loads of young cousins,, i set up most of there accounts they were going to do it anyway,this allowed me to have access to all there passwords, i also have my own page and i monitor all of them through this.

i also have two test pages a boy and a girl and when someone makes a mistake like saying too much i can use this to show them i then set up a new page, facts are every sico in the country is on these sites u have to embrace it and teach kids about it.

ask your kids to help you set up a page bet they would love to help you,,