Shooting in Cumbria [READ MOD NOTES IN POST #1 BEFORE POSTING OR READING]

cavan shooter

A police psychologist made an important point last week when he said if it wasnt a firearm it could have been a car. i.e the man flipped, its going to be rammed down our throats regardless you should have second guessed an article like that being printed, Thankfully most sane people will read that for what it really is scare mongering and sensationalism by a desperate group of animal rights people.

jwshooter

the sorry last few days of derrick bird ...

noting to do with shooting ,but it might make us more aware .

ivanthehunter

Its not guns that are the problem! We had decades of guns with no problems..

The real problem is societies media engines filling our evenings with sex and violence to beat the band.. This is the demon among us!..
We're all a bit desensitized by constant images of death etc etc .... and when our senses are over loaded we 'monkey see monkey do' our way along until the rage has subsided..

Ever one knows that TV's a great learning device but the idea that your safe watching some shows once you're over 18 is ridiculous.. They can change peoples mind set and set them off on a bender with subliminal messaging so watching a whole film must have an effect..

Look here a vid that might prove my point to a degree. I know bird was an older man but he still lived in modern society http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y_5vxM8PYM&feature=related

ivanthehunter

jwshooter wrote: »

the sorry last few days of derrick bird ...

noting to do with shooting ,but it might make us more aware .

I dont have UK TV where i live! Anylinks on the net!:)

Dusty87

ivanthehunter wrote: »

I dont have UK TV where i live! Anylinks on the net!:)

I tried watch something on Ch4 on the net before Ivan. Couldnt get it. Such hardship, with registering etc.
Time to get out the Free to Air satellite:D

Rovi

It's available on 4oD:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/chasing-the-cumbrian-killer/4od#3082987

getz

Bosco boy wrote: »

If you personally were tasked with the job of regulating firearms in this country and who gets them would you not think that what happended in the likes of Dunblane, Hungerford and cumbria might be considerations or do we have to wait for our own tradgey for the penney to drop!!! I'm not at all against gun ownership but not for every tom dick or Derek. Good strict regulation is good for everyone except people who dont meet the requirements. The laws here are adquate but if some people had their way lidl and aldi would be doing specials in shotguns. Good regulation wont always prevent it but it will reduce the chances of it happening.

to get a gun licence in the UK isent easy, unless you can bypass the proper channels ,ie, thomas hamilton[dumblain killings]was a freemason,who was granted his licence by the local magistrate[freemason]against the police advice. derick bird[freemason] makes me think who granted him his licence

cavan shooter

Shooting Times last week has very good articles on this and commentary.

tac foley

getz wrote: »

to get a gun licence in the UK isent easy, unless you can bypass the proper channels ,ie, thomas hamilton[dumblain killings]was a freemason,who was granted his licence by the local magistrate[freemason]against the police advice. derick bird[freemason] makes me think who granted him his licence

Sir - you are very much mistaken in some of your comment.

Getting a firearm in THIS country is just as difficult as it is where YOU live - you'd better believe it - it just is done in a slightly different way, and permitted from a far higher level of police organisation than yours. Even the county I live in has a police HQ the same size as Phoenix Park HQ.

Shotguns are a whole different story, and as a non-shotgunner, I'll leave that one alone.

Firearms licenses here [called Firearms Certificates - FAC] in the UK are granted by the Chief Constable of the county in which you live, or of the police authority, if you live in a metropolitan area such as Greater Manchester, NOT by magistrates of any kind...and certainly not by a Garda sergeant who might bear a grudge and refuse you a pemit because you kicked him up the ar*e at school forty years ago.

The Chief Constable, who, incidentally two full ranks higher that a Garda Superintendent, has the sole authority to sign your licence, and will do so unless there is 'good reason' not to do so.

Here in UK, the 'good reason' to obtain a firearm is dependent on a number of different types of shooting -

a. Target shooting in an authorised club range - unless you are a club member you cannot have ANY kind of firearm, and that includes black powder replicas.
You have to serve a six-month probationary period before applying for your FAC, and it has to be countersigned by the club secretary [who also provided a reference as to your suitability to own firearms], accompanied by two independent referees who have known you for two years or more. AND you have to give permission for your medical records to be examined, if it is deemed necessary. In any case, by making the declaration on the application form you are committing yourself to examination - failure to disclose offences of any kind, or making a false declaration in order to obtain a firearm, are very serious offences attracting up to five years in prison. Giving up shooting or leaving the club takes away your 'reason' to own firearms, so you have to hand them in or dispose of them legally. Similalrly, if you do something stupid that gets you suspended for the range, the club secretary/Chief RSO is required by law to advise the FAC issuing authority of this - you MAY lose your licence as a result. Remember - NO club membership = no reason to have a firearm.

b. Deer-stalking/vermin control [or both] on approved land, and by this I mean land that you have been permitted to shoot over that has been checked out for calibre by a Firearms Investigation officer. Losing approval for any reason will result in you losing your FAC - you have no 'reason' to have a gun as you are no longer able to shoot there.

c. the above where you are a registered vermin contol operator.

d. In pursuit of your profession - ie. game warden, forest ranger, game conservancy, ghillie or other professional pro-hunter/stalker.

Here in UK the FAC last six years, and covers ALL the firearms in your possession - if you e-mail me, I'll send you a photo-copy of mine so you can see what it looks like [I have eighteen firearms, so it's quite interesting to read, apart from anything else].

It can be revoked for the illegal possession of a single round of expanding ammunition that is not on your licence - here, expanding ammunition is prohibited unless you shoot game, and this permission is part of the conditions of your FAC. You also face, yup, you guessed - five years imprisonment for illegal possession of ammunition for which you do not have a permit.

The point you make that the Chief Constable may have been 'bent' by his membership of the Freemasons has not been proven, but then again, it has not been disproven either and here in UK the general opinion is that the well-known kiddy-fiddler Hamilton may have been allowed to have his guns, against the advice of a number of lower-ranking police officers, for a number of reasons -

a. His fellow bum-bandit boyfriend senior police officer pal was in danger of being revealed in public - ie. by blackmail.

b. his fellow pedophile senior police officer pal was in danger of being revealed in public - ie. by blackmail.

c. his fellow bum-bandit circle of high-placed pedophile acquaintances, including senior police officers, magistrates and others highly-placed in the local county community were all in danger of being revealed in public - ie. by blackmail.

d. Any/and all of the above.

Take your choice.

Autres pays, autres facons, as we say over here.

tac
Supporter of the Cape meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

PS - This is the very first mention I have heard that Bird was a freemason. Where did you hear that?

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Funnily enough they have been saying that about foxhunting with hounds in the UK for at least 150 years.Ever since the first railway lines were laid. Still going strong last time I looked. , :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sadly, not. Banned by the New Labout government back in 2007.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

Dusty87

tac foley wrote: »

Sadly, not. Banned by the New Labout government back in 2007.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

I read an article by Alisdair Mitchel, from 2008.
They lay a scent for the hounds. A 'trail' so to speak. IF the hounds accidently follow the scent of a fox, the hunt cannot be prosecuted, because they did not intend to go out after a fox.

tac foley

'...accidentally...' is the operative word there. ; )

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

getz

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - you are very much mistaken in some of your comment.

Getting a firearm in THIS country is just as difficult as it is where YOU live - you'd better believe it - it just is done in a slightly different way, and permitted from a far higher level of police organisation than yours. Even the county I live in has a police HQ the same size as Phoenix Park HQ.

Shotguns are a whole different story, and as a non-shotgunner, I'll leave that one alone.

Firearms licenses here [called Firearms Certificates - FAC] in the UK are granted by the Chief Constable of the county in which you live, or of the police authority, if you live in a metropolitan area such as Greater Manchester, NOT by magistrates of any kind...and certainly not by a Garda sergeant who might bear a grudge and refuse you a pemit because you kicked him up the ar*e at school forty years ago.

The Chief Constable, who, incidentally two full ranks higher that a Garda Superintendent, has the sole authority to sign your licence, and will do so unless there is 'good reason' not to do so.

Here in UK, the 'good reason' to obtain a firearm is dependent on a number of different types of shooting -

a. Target shooting in an authorised club range - unless you are a club member you cannot have ANY kind of firearm, and that includes black powder replicas.
You have to serve a six-month probationary period before applying for your FAC, and it has to be countersigned by the club secretary [who also provided a reference as to your suitability to own firearms], accompanied by two independent referees who have known you for two years or more. AND you have to give permission for your medical records to be examined, if it is deemed necessary. In any case, by making the declaration on the application form you are committing yourself to examination - failure to disclose offences of any kind, or making a false declaration in order to obtain a firearm, are very serious offences attracting up to five years in prison. Giving up shooting or leaving the club takes away your 'reason' to own firearms, so you have to hand them in or dispose of them legally. Similalrly, if you do something stupid that gets you suspended for the range, the club secretary/Chief RSO is required by law to advise the FAC issuing authority of this - you MAY lose your licence as a result. Remember - NO club membership = no reason to have a firearm.

b. Deer-stalking/vermin control [or both] on approved land, and by this I mean land that you have been permitted to shoot over that has been checked out for calibre by a Firearms Investigation officer. Losing approval for any reason will result in you losing your FAC - you have no 'reason' to have a gun as you are no longer able to shoot there.

c. the above where you are a registered vermin contol operator.

d. In pursuit of your profession - ie. game warden, forest ranger, game conservancy, ghillie or other professional pro-hunter/stalker.

Here in UK the FAC last six years, and covers ALL the firearms in your possession - if you e-mail me, I'll send you a photo-copy of mine so you can see what it looks like [I have eighteen firearms, so it's quite interesting to read, apart from anything else].

It can be revoked for the illegal possession of a single round of expanding ammunition that is not on your licence - here, expanding ammunition is prohibited unless you shoot game, and this permission is part of the conditions of your FAC. You also face, yup, you guessed - five years imprisonment for illegal possession of ammunition for which you do not have a permit.

The point you make that the Chief Constable may have been 'bent' by his membership of the Freemasons has not been proven, but then again, it has not been disproven either and here in UK the general opinion is that the well-known kiddy-fiddler Hamilton may have been allowed to have his guns, against the advice of a number of lower-ranking police officers, for a number of reasons -

a. His fellow bum-bandit boyfriend senior police officer pal was in danger of being revealed in public - ie. by blackmail.

b. his fellow pedophile senior police officer pal was in danger of being revealed in public - ie. by blackmail.

c. his fellow bum-bandit circle of high-placed pedophile acquaintances, including senior police officers, magistrates and others highly-placed in the local county community were all in danger of being revealed in public - ie. by blackmail.

d. Any/and all of the above.

Take your choice.

Autres pays, autres facons, as we say over here.

tac
Supporter of the Cape meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

PS - This is the very first mention I have heard that Bird was a freemason. Where did you hear that?

sir back to you,i live in the UK,in fact not far from cumbria i am at the otherside of the bay, derick bird was a freemason this was all over the german press,but hardly any mention in the UK media,[and i think we both know why] as far as hammilton [dunblane] is concerned,the parents are still fighting to get to the truth,the results of that enquiry on how he got his gun, first went missing,then got locked away under the official acts for 50 years.this wasent the only time that a third party has been involved in coverups ,just check out the shoot to kill policy in nothern ireland. the gun law in the UK is very good,but is often bypassed by a shake of a hand.

cavan shooter

I personnally know and worked with lads in the Masons (UK and Ireland) whats wrong with being a mason;), your implying that being a free mason will give certain privaleges to another above anything else (mason to Mason above all others).

This is quite similiar to what is also called "Pull", in ireland. The largest branch of the Irish atypical esoteric society is often reffered to as "The cumann" membership of same leads people to belive that

• anywhere can be rezoned
• sure the minister will sort the young lad out with a job
• points and summonses can disappear
  
  
  and yes you guessed it a divine right to get into the local gun club

On the last point a new member of our club kept mentioning the local cumman to me as I was helping him fill out our application form. To which I swiftly replied "you must be sitting down the back, I havent seen you at the Fine Gael meetings"

So folks funny hand shakes are alive and well in Ireland

getz

there is nothing wrong in being a mason,as long as your masonic conections do not breach the laws of the land,but as we know most people join the masons for self advancement,in the case of derick bird i myself do not believe his mason conections had anything to do with him having a gun licence,because he had his licence for over 20 years,the only puzzle i have in my mind, is how was he able to have a shotgun with a large scope on it, the gun he used was so heavy that witnesses said he could hardly lift it up,[and he was a big man] why would you be allowed to own a gun that size to shoot a bunny ?

cavan shooter

heres thejist of the shooting times articles

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/473125/David_Cameron_announces_Home_Office_firearms_review.html

Grizzly 45

getz wrote: »

the only puzzle i have in my mind, is how was he able to have a shotgun with a large scope on it, the gun he used was so heavy that witnesses said he could hardly lift it up,[and he was a big man] why would you be allowed to own a gun that size to shoot a bunny ?

Taking into account in a stressful and traumatic situation people cant really give accurate or coherent descriptions of a specific item,especially as well the general public being pretty ignorant of firearms.Not to mind this ignorance being fuelled by an even more pack of ignorant media whores out for a bloodlust story.I WOULD take descriptions of"shotguns with scopes" and "rifles so heavy,etc etc"with a very large pinch of salt.

Nor would I belive much in the German press either especially if it is some red top rag like BILD.It comes from the Rupert Murdoch stables of ink on paper slop.:rolleyes:

getz

there is a good witness reports,by some of the people who knew him, and spotted him with the gun walking around shooting people,its all there on you-tube,

Grizzly 45

And they were firearms experts??Gunowners themselves??Knew the difference between a double barrel shotgun and a rifle?[As obviously you dont really put scopes on double barrel shotguns,but maybe he did for this occasion?],or were all possibly well trained to be cool ,and observe and accurately report what they saw while under fire?[IE they were ex police or military presonel,or people who deal with life or death emergencies as part of their profession ?]

Youtube....righhhhhttttttt!!! A certain Inspector of the Garda firearms unit might tell you about the advisability of using Youtube and Wikipedia for "evidence":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

getz

i take it you have never been to cumbria,mainly a farming community,in the area he killed it is the countries largest agricultural coop-erative,there are a lot of shotguns in combria,like rural ireland they know what a gun looks like,[they even have their own celtic language [cumbric] but only the farmers can speak a few words off it

Grizzly 45

Thanks for the most intresting geographical and historical mini tour of Cumbria.:rolleyes: Omitting of course that is has the most leakiest nuke power plant in the Western Hemisphere as well..If they are all farmers out there then they would be able to tell anyone that was intrested that you dont put telescopic sights on a double barrel shotgun.That is generally put on a rifle..So sorry,I dont buy that there was a dozen Wurzel Gummidges around that day to say what had happened.Just a bunch of people frightned out of their wits and anything that looked like a gun was good enough for them and the press whores.

getz

who ever said it was a double barrel shotgun ?i am no gun expert,but even i know shotguns come in both double and single barrel,on a quick google i came accross two shotgun makes with scope-rem870 magnum with canteleverd scope mount attached to the slug barrel[good for hunting deer and wild hogs[hic] and the moosberg 500 shotgun,no doubt our gunnies will enlighten us

kildare.17hmr

I remember on sky news that day they kept repeting an interview with an eye witness who refered to birds .22 rifle as a huge rifle like an army snipper would use. why would any1 need a wepon like that to shoot a few rabbits?? they used it because it was shocking to watch and hear him discribe it when infact it was a .22 rifle! sort of proves what Grizzly45 is sayin that most of the people who wittnessed this and reported it were scared civilians who have no knowledge or experiance of firearms so cannot give an accurate discription, most from what i remember seeing woman out shopping and the few cab drivers

Grizzly 45

Calm down and try spelling your words right..;)
Yes there are pumps and semis with scopes.HOWEVER you are now arguing the toss as we say here.
FACT He used a double barrel shotgun!! As in possesion of Cumbria police force.
FACT he was not liscensed for a pump or whatever so this point is irrevelant
FACT His DBBL did NOT have a scope on it.His .22 rifle did.
FACT
People in stressful situations wouldnt know the difference between a DBBL,a .22 rifle and a bazooka if it is being waved about.A reason most convience stores have a tape measure on the doors ,so that LEO can get a more coherent description on height,than "he was 9ft tall with a HUGE gun".
FACT you just said you are no gun expert,so how would you expect anyone else to know the difference,if they have never seen one???Except when somone is taking potshots at them?

kildare.17hmr

FACT! very well said grizzly

cavan shooter

Does it matter what he used.....FACT is people are dead, it happened for whatever reason know one knows or will know why the poor man flipped. Fact is (as what was stated) When people see a gun, thats what they see a gun, not the type make, model etc etc

I am more interested in seeing what the outcome of the reviews into the licensing of firearms will be and the investigation into the Police. I for one think the Police is getting a raw deal by some, the killings appear to be totally random, in a very rural part of Britain, I spent many a day in my early 20's walking in Cumbria, beutiful countryside and wonderful friendly people.
such a tragedy:(

kildare.17hmr

[QUOTE=

I for one think the Police is getting a raw deal by some, the killings appear to be totally random, in a very rural part of Britain[/QUOTE]
+1

bunny shooter

“........so if we are looking for what the problem is, it is clearly that in our society we have a huge number of guns that we need to get rid of......"

Quote from http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/473...ms_review.html

Are we not seeing this situation here at the moment also?

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Are we not seeing this situation here at the moment also?

Well, to be fair, it's true.
It's just that the ones we need to get rid of are held by folks who don't have licences for them and aren't likely to get rid of them because of their deeply held ethics and civic nature.

bunny shooter

Exactly, but the PTB know where the legally held ones are and they are a lot easier to remove :rolleyes: