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I seen her...that is to say I SAW her

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    #32
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Personally, I have never seen anyone write "I'm after...." in an English essay for example.

    Fair enough - although I'd say you would have read the form if you marked essays that quoted from Ulysses.
    If I wrote "I'm after...." in an English essay I would more than likely get marked down for mechanics as strictly speaking it is not grammatically correct.

    It is perfectly grammatically correct, though not by the rules that you follow. However, back to written usage - it does happen. Take this line from a letter by John Daly, the gold commissioner of Maryborough, Victoria, in the nineteenth century:
    "I am just after forming a new camp of my own to which I have given the name Maryborough and expect to be fixed here for some time.”

    I'm not having a go at you, partyatmygaff, but you seem to be implying that there's a moral superiority about using one form over another.

    There are pragmatic reasons, certainly, but are we talking about the way things are or the way things should be?


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    #33
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    A lot of these 'Irishisms' are as a result of direct comparison with the Irish language.

    'I do be' equivocates to 'Bím' as in 'Bím ag súil ar an trá go minic' 'I walk on the beach often' or the literal translational 'I do be walking on the beach often'


    So I'd throw out a bit of slack to people who say that.:D


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    #34
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    pickarooney wrote: »
    It's not. This thread is about spoken English.
    Besides, how many English essays written by Irish students have you met and how can you be sure one would be marked down for using "I'm after +ing"?
    Well considering that i'm still in fifth year and regularly read my friend's essays as well as many others (For example the ones posted on the Leaving Cert section of boards) I can safely say that I have never come across anyone saying "I'm after..." in an essay. It's simply too colloquial for formal writing.


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    #35
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Well considering that i'm still in fifth year and regularly read my friend's essays as well as many others (For example the ones posted on the Leaving Cert section of boards) I can safely say that I have never come across anyone saying "I'm after..." in an essay. It's simply too colloquial for formal writing.

    Not all "essays" are written in formal English.

    The word fuck would not be considered a good formal word but is not an incorrect word either.


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    #36
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    enda1 wrote: »
    Not all "essays" are written in formal English.

    The word fuck would not be considered a good formal word but is not an incorrect word either.
    Using expletives in any essay (Why did you put essay in quotation marks by the way?) would be looked down upon. Not because of its formality moreso because expletives are generally considered as being the lowest form of expression.


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    #37
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Using expletives in any essay (Why did you put essay in quotation marks by the way?) would be looked down upon. Not because of its formality moreso because expletives are generally considered as being the lowest form of expression.

    I don't consider expletives the lowest form of expression.
    I think they can express emotion and context quite efficiently!


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    #38
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    asahi wrote: »
    We're speaking Hiberno-English, so we don't have to stick to the rules of Standard English, do we?

    The proverbial use of 'we' again :)! That habitual usage is peculiarly 'Hiberno'. Generally speaking, the posters on the English forum occasionally discuss Hiberno-English, but don't necessarily speak it.

    The term 'Hiberno-English' is often used as an excuse to break the rules of Standard English. However, the problem with breaking these rules is that the language rapidly degenerates into a form of dialect, which becomes somewhat remote from the original language, and impacts negatively on communication between communities.

    To get back on topic, yes indeed the 'seen' and 'done' scenario has returned with a vengeance. It was in common usage by poorly educated people when I was growing up in rural Ireland. It disappeared for a long period but now it is back, notably with young foreign children, whose parents' first language is not English, and they are therefore unsure of the correct grammar, but their children pick it up from their Irish peers.

    There is an earlier thread on this subject:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422496


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    #39
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #40
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That is a very good post, Donegal, with very apt examples!


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    #41
    Yakuza
    Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Yakuza


    pickarooney wrote: »
    "I'm after" ?



    I'm going swimming now?

    I should have been clearer. "I'm going swimming" is fine (as are most going + gerund constructions), as swimming is a noun (verbal noun / gerund) in that context, but "going doing that now" just does not sit right with me, it should be "going to do that now".

    AFAIK, "I'm after" is an anglicisation of the Irish construction "Tá mé tar éis".
    "Tá mé tar éis dul go dtí na siopaí" - I've just been to the shops, but gets literally translated as "I'm after going to the shops".


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    #42
    asahi
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭asahi


    Yakuza wrote: »
    "I'm after going to the shops".

    That sounds grand to me.

    It would be sad day if we all had to speak like little Englishmen.


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    #43
    Yakuza
    Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Yakuza


    asahi wrote: »
    That sounds grand to me.

    It would be sad day if we all had to speak like little Englishmen.

    I agree, I was just explaining what I understand to be the origins of "I'm after XXXX". I use a mixture of standard English or Hiberno English as the situation merits. Stuff like "I seen" and "I done" is neither, just bad grammar :)


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    #44
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    A lot of these 'Irishisms' are as a result of direct comparison with the Irish language.

    'I do be' equivocates to 'Bím' as in 'Bím ag súil ar an trá go minic' 'I walk on the beach often' or the literal translational 'I do be walking on the beach often'


    So I'd throw out a bit of slack to people who say that.:D

    Correct. It's called the present habitual tense. Asking Irish people to speak correct English is ridiculous. We speak Hiberno-English, not British-English. We have different quirks about how we say things.

    "Do be" as FB pointed out, which is derived from the present habitual tense which doesn't exist in the English language. Or stuff like "I have it done" (Tá sé déanta agam) instead of "I did it".

    Then there is the "th's". Personally, speaking correct English feels a little dirty to me. It's would feel very forceful and disingenuous.


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    #45
    drakshug
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭drakshug


    After 15 years teaching English abroad I came back to find basic English grammar had been thrown out. My pet hate is the prevalence of "I'm loving it".
    Present continuous is not used for emotions. It should be "I love it".
    However, there are structures peculiar to certain circles of English such as the double negative in Scots/Ulster English or the use of the definite article in Gaeltachtd Scots and Irish.
    Being unable to differentiate between seen and saw is very Irish and Scottish but is also a grammatical faux pas and just labels you as a skanger. English partitions time very exactly and the difference between present perfect and past simple has a very distinctive meaning.


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    #46
    Yakuza
    Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Yakuza


    drakshug wrote: »
    My pet hate is the prevalence of "I'm loving it".
    You can lay the blame for that square at the feet of McDonalds :rolleyes:


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    #47
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    drakshug wrote: »
    After 15 years teaching English abroad I came back to find basic English grammar had been thrown out. My pet hate is the prevalence of "I'm loving it".
    Present continuous is not used for emotions. It should be "I love it".

    I believe the reason for that lies in the use of 'love' as a non-emotional equivalent for 'enjoy', a verb that can comfortably used in the present continuous.

    For instance, if asked your opinion on the third series of a television program, you may want to say that you're enjoying it thus far but at the same time use a stronger verb to convey more than mere enjoyment.

    Of course, even respected songwriters such as Irving Berlin have been using the construct (in its future form) since the 1920s, so it's hardly a recent innovation either.


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    #48
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Yakuza wrote: »
    You can lay the blame for that square at the feet of McDonalds :rolleyes:

    The McDonald's slogan is in fact "i'm lovin' it"!

    The business publication Management Today had this to say:
    From the lower case 'i', declaring a youthful disregard for grammar, to the mysterious 'it', this slogan is desperate to give Big Mac [McDonald's] a tiny hint of outlaw chic. Take, for instance, that 'lovin", with its provocative apostrophe intended to suggest cool, rebellion and black speech, just as it has since the days of Mark Twain. Some may even detect in the slogan a hint of the 'loved-up' language of the E generation.

    Love it!


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    #49
    Dunjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭Dunjohn


    McDonalds tends to follow and exploit trends, it rarely starts them. "I'm loving it" was already being used by one of their target audiences before they adopted it, though they probably are to blame for making it so ubiquitous.


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    #50
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Asking Irish people to speak correct English is ridiculous. We speak Hiberno-English, not British-English. We have different quirks about how we say things.

    'We' again :rolleyes::rolleyes:!! Who, precisely, do you mean by 'we'?

    The majority of Irish people were brought up speaking English, and only learned Irish at school as a second language. There is nothing 'ridiculous' about expecting them to speak it correctly, as all the rules of grammar and spelling etc. were taught in schools.

    However, if some people wish to speak 'Hiberno-English', they are perfectly entitled to do so, just as those who wish 'to speak correct English' should be afforded the same privilege.


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    #51
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Raven. wrote: »
    'We' again :rolleyes::rolleyes:!! Who, precisely, do you mean by 'we'?

    The people of Ireland.
    The Raven. wrote: »
    The majority of Irish people were brought up speaking English, and only learned Irish at school as a second language. There is nothing 'ridiculous' about expecting them to speak it correctly, as all the rules of grammar and spelling etc. were taught in schools.

    *sigh* :rolleyes:

    We grow up in a society that speaks Hiberno-English, which is a dialect of English that has evolved over hundreds of years. It's irrelevant if we studied "English" in school - We speak Hiberno-English.
    The Raven. wrote: »
    However, if some people wish to speak 'Hiberno-English', they are perfectly entitled to do so

    It's not a matter of wishing to do so or not. It's just a matter of fact. Irish people speak Hiberno-English. The same way that Americans speak American-English. You seem to have a serious problem with the fact that Ireland has it's own dialect of English. The way we speak is a result of two languages intermixing in society. It doesn't matter if the Irish language is no longer prevalent as it once was - the foundation is already set and has been set for many generations.

    You can speak whatever way you wish - but the genuine dialect of Ireland, is Hiberno-English and this is not up for debate. It's merely a matter of fact. Deal with it.


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    #52
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The people of Ireland.



    *sigh* :rolleyes:

    We grow up in a society that speaks Hiberno-English, which is a dialect of English that has evolved over hundreds of years. It's irrelevant if we studied "English" in school - We speak Hiberno-English.



    It's not a matter of wishing to do so or not. It's just a matter of fact. Irish people speak Hiberno-English. The same way that Americans speak American-English. You seem to have a serious problem with the fact that Ireland has it's own dialect of English. The way we speak is a result of two languages intermixing in society. It doesn't matter if the Irish language is no longer prevalent as it once was - the foundation is already set and has been set for many generations.

    You can speak whatever way you wish - but the genuine dialect of Ireland, is Hiberno-English and this is not up for debate. It's merely a matter of fact. Deal with it.

    What has all that to do with 'I seen' and 'I done'?

    They were wrong before and they are wrong now,and no amount of bulldust will get by that


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    #53
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    What has all that to do with 'I seen' and 'I done'?

    I explained what it has to do with it. We speak Hiberno-English. Not British-English. We say things slightly differently. To be annoyed with people for speaking their own dialect of English is silly.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    They were wrong before and they are wrong now,and no amount of bulldust will get by that

    They are wrong in British-English. They are perfectly valid in Hiberno-English. Language is ever-evolving. Scottish-Gaelic and Irish were the same language a few hundred years ago, but they have evolved into different languages. In the same respect, the English language that is spoken in Ireland today is distinct enough to at least be considered it's own dialect. So while certain nuances of Hiberno-English may not meet the grammatic standards of British-English, they are still fine as phrases of Hiberno-English.


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    #54
    drakshug
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭drakshug


    The problem is not the use of dialect. The problem is the inability to use standard English and the inability to understand when to code-switch.
    There are many circles of English but there is a standard that allows users of those diverging forms of English to communicate.
    I speak Scots at home but can code switch to standard English in public. Many can't speak their own dialect properly or English and let's not speak of the standards of Irish.
    If you are going to do anything then strive to do it well. Unfortunately what is classed as an Irish or scots dialect is nowhere near the genuine article but just a bastardized version of English. I can honestly say that the users of seen rather than saw I have talked to, use almost no words and other elements that can be classed as dialect. Indeed they cannot understand the difference whilst attempting standard English.
    Code switching is essential in our international world.


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    #55
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    drakshug wrote: »
    Unfortunately what is classed as an Irish or scots dialect is nowhere near the genuine article but just a bastardized version of English.

    It's a dialect of English, not bastardized English. Such a term carries negative connotations. It's a language change, that has morphed over 100's of years through a bilingual state. There is nothing that can change that.
    drakshug wrote: »
    I can honestly say that the users of seen rather than saw I have talked to, use almost no words and other elements that can be classed as dialect. Indeed they cannot understand the difference whilst attempting standard English.

    It is a dialect and is recognised as such around the world by linguists.


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    #56
    drakshug
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭drakshug


    Dlofnep, you selectively read the post. I was not denigrating the dialect. I was saying that a lot of what people think is dialect is actually poor English. You'll find pure Hiberno-English surviving in the country areas just like lowland scots survives in the country areas. In the cities it is usually a diluted, bastardized English. Dialects are being lost as the world gets smaller. If you had taken my whole post into account you'll have seen that I have not noticed many words etc in those examples of batardized English that would class it as dialect. Is an Irish dialect taught formally in Irish schools? Is there an Irish gov department to promote and protect it?
    I am not denying Hiberno-Irish but a dialect has it's own rules too. Using a few words and forms does not make one speak in dialect.
    By the way, bastardization is a term used in linguistics. What many speak here is neither English nor Hiberno-English.
    Maybe it should be called skanger.


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    #57
    holystungun9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭holystungun9


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Horrid, abysmal, atrocious, horrific, horrible e.t.c....

    As far as I know, "I saw" is the simple past tense and "I have seen" would be the present perfect tense and "I had seen" would be the past perfect tense.

    Wow, you don't really live up to your name I'm afraid................crap....I ain't haven't given mine much thought either.:(


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    #58
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I explained what it has to do with it. We speak Hiberno-English. Not British-English. We say things slightly differently. To be annoyed with people for speaking their own dialect of English is silly.



    They are wrong in British-English. They are perfectly valid in Hiberno-English. Language is ever-evolving. Scottish-Gaelic and Irish were the same language a few hundred years ago, but they have evolved into different languages. In the same respect, the English language that is spoken in Ireland today is distinct enough to at least be considered it's own dialect. So while certain nuances of Hiberno-English may not meet the grammatic standards of British-English, they are still fine as phrases of Hiberno-English.


    Off the wall.

    The use and misuse of 'seen' and 'done' has nothing whatsoever to do with Hiberno-English.

    It's bad grammar, shows the user to be unable to figure out the correct usage,and almost certainly puts the proponent and serial user in a lower socio economic class.


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    #59
    Yakuza
    Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Yakuza


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Off the wall.

    The use and misuse of 'seen' and 'done' has nothing whatsoever to do with Hiberno-English.

    It's bad grammar, shows the user to be unable to figure out the correct usage,and almost certainly puts the proponent and serial user in a lower socio economic class.

    Absolutely spot on, it's nothing more than ropey grammar. Watch some football pundits on the BBC, or some of the oiks that get arrested on these Road Wars-style programs, or some of the spiv tradesmen on Watchdog and you'll come across plenty of examples of "I seen" and "I done" (and more), and they aren't speaking Hiberno-English.


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    #60
    Osgoodisgood
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Osgoodisgood


    I've had to do the unthinkable and start watching the ITV World Cup coverage. Ray Houghton's command of the language make listening impossible without throwing shoes, children and other handy objects at the telly.

    Hiberno-English is being used as a handy get-out-of-jail card for any poor or lazy grammar. "Youse", "He done that", and "yizzers" are just wrong and should never be acceptable to any culture looking to interact with dignity with the rest of the English speaking world.


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    #61
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65520695&postcount=1

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055322183&highlight=Houghton

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422496&highlight=Houghton

    Way ahead of you horse, you are not alone.

    Fcuking drives the nads clean out of my ballbag does that guy, Mr Houghton.


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