Rafa is gone.(mod warning @ post 762)

noodler

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes the 33rd team in the world cup was laughable.I could understand the French Embassy protests to a point although it was cringeworthy stuff.

Do you think people care about the future of Ryanair the same way they feel about the future of a football club..?

WOOSH

plasmaguy

monkey9 wrote: »

I remember the tail end of the dominant years. I remember Liverpool winning the league. I also remember the nineties!!

Seriously, you're talking put of your hoop. Whether it's on purpose or not, i don't know.

Rafa is the greatest manager we have had since Dalglish! He gave us our pride back and made a continent fear us again.

Yeh Standard Liege and the like will really be fearing you next season in the Europa League, which by the way is a consolation league.

Right I have to log off now, been on this thread long enough tonight.

In summary, Benitez invested an absolute fortune in his 6 years while selling some pretty good players, Crouch, Alonso, Keane and so on. Who did he replace them with? Aquilani, Vorinon, NGog, Lucas and so on and so forth. How he thought he could win the league with players like that is beyond me.

podge018

Crouch Alonso Both put in transfer requests.

And Keane was good?

You're full of it

Dub13

plasmaguy wrote: »

How he thought he could win the league with players like that is beyond me.

He came pretty dam close,or did you miss that bit.

tbh

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh Standard Liege and the like will really be fearing you next season in the Europa League, which by the way is a consolation league.

Right I have to log off now, been on this thread long enough tonight.

In summary, Benitez invested an absolute fortune in his 6 years while selling some pretty good players, Crouch, Alonso, Keane and so on. Who did he replace them with? Aquilani, Vorinon, NGog, Lucas and so on and so forth. How he thought he could win the league with players like that is beyond me.

you should actually study the facts and not just parrot the crap you pick up from the back page of the sun and the Sunday world.

plasmaguy

tbh wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember and I'm intelligent enough to understand that the glories of the past don't translate to one red cent of entitlement in the present. Just because we were successful in the past doesn't mean that we will be again, that's a ludicrous idea. The truth is that only one team can win the premiership every season and if Liverpool are to do it, we have to beat two of the richest clubs in the world. I don't thin that there's a manager in the world who could take the club, in the state it's in, past Chelsea and man yoo. That rafa even came close is the best we could hope for, realistically, and it's just a shame that the 'fans' who don't understand that have been pandered to

Are Ngog, Vorinon, Lucas and Aquilani fit to wear the Liverpool jersey?

Would you rate them in the same league as Aldridge, Houghtan, Barnes, Rush, Daglish, Whelan, Souness, Lawrenson, Neal?

And not all the greats of Liverpool's past were bought for a fortune. Most were bought for an absolute pittance.

doc_17

plasmaguy wrote: »

Under Benitez, Liverpool have been also rans for all 6 seasons. Is that really good enough?

Under Benitez Liverpool have been champions of europe. Your standards are high

ShiverinEskimo

doc_17 wrote: »

Under Benitez Liverpool have been champions of europe. Your standards are high

He's talking about the league.

plasmaguy

Look lads believe what ya like.

He was a poor manager.

League positions don't lie. And he bought poorly, very few, maybe one or two of the current squad would be allowed lace Daglish or Keegan's boots when they were in their prime, let alone Rush's.

If I was a Liverpool fan I'd be celebrating.

Night!

steelcityblues

tbh wrote: »

you should actually study the facts and not just parrot the crap you pick up from the back page of the sun and the Sunday world.

Do you think he deserved at least another season then?

davyjose

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

He's talking about the league.

Liverpool have somehow cultivated this idea that the League is more important than Europe. That is such ****ing bullsh!t, it's not even funny. Look at the facts, for every four or five leagues a "big" european team has, they have 1 CL, if lucky.

And benitez won that.

Ask Inter Milan which means more!

tbh

steelcityblues wrote: »

Do you think he deserved at least another season then?

that's exactly what I think. At least one more season. Preferably under new ownership.

Thanx 4 The Fish

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh Standard Liege and the like will really be fearing you next season in the Europa League, which by the way is a consolation league.

Right I have to log off now, been on this thread long enough tonight.

In summary, Benitez invested an absolute fortune in his 6 years while selling some pretty good players, Crouch, Alonso, Keane and so on. Who did he replace them with? Aquilani, Vorinon, NGog, Lucas and so on and so forth. How he thought he could win the league with players like that is beyond me.

plasmaguy wrote: »

Are Ngog, Vorinon, Lucas and Aquilani fit to wear the Liverpool jersey?

Would you rate them in the same league as Aldridge, Houghtan, Barnes, Rush, Daglish, Whelan, Souness, Lawrenson, Neal?

And not all the greats of Liverpool's past were bought for a fortune. Most were bought for an absolute pittance.

plasmaguy wrote: »

Look lads believe what ya like.

He was a poor manager.

League positions don't lie. And he bought poorly, very few, maybe one or two of the current squad would be allowed lace Daglish or Keegan's boots when they were in their prime, let alone Rush's.

If I was a Liverpool fan I'd be celebrating.

Night!

Were you not going or did you feel that your presence would be missed here abouts, I can assure you that it won't be, worry not.

Whatever shred of credibility you had and lets be honest, that was feck all, was gone once you mentioned Whelan and Houghton, as great Liverpool players, good they might have been and yeah they played for Ireland but ffs.

Anyway, you gone yet? No, oh well, if you think a poor manager can win the top european trophies, league titles, domestic trophies and be wanted by the current Italian and European champions, then somebody who probably knows a lot more about football than you or I must think differently to you.

leninbenjamin

tbh wrote: »

that's exactly what I think. At least one more season. Preferably under new ownership.

But clearly new ownership isn't going to happen anytime soon. And considering the relationship between board and Rafa had deteriorated to such an extent, do you not think a fresh face might bring a more immediate change to Liverpool's fortunes?

I understand the loyalty to Rafa, but I find the pessimism on behalf of the pool fans to be a bit ott myself.

steelcityblues

Robbie Keane is a class player and can't believe people would think otherwise, when the stats season-in, season-out don't lie!

Thanx 4 The Fish

steelcityblues wrote: »

Robbie Keane is a class player and can't believe people would think otherwise, when the stats season-in, season-out don't lie!

Robbie Keane finished the season at Celtic for a reason. Stats currently show that Peter Crouch is amongst the best strikers England has ever had too, do you think it is the case?

tbh

leninbenjamin wrote: »

But clearly new ownership isn't going to happen anytime soon. And considering the relationship between board and Rafa had deteriorated to such an extent, do you not think a fresh face might bring a more immediate change to Liverpool's fortunes?

it's not just a question of a fresh face tho. Any decent manager worth his salt would run a mile from the club at the moment. I truly believe that rafa fought the board on behalf of the fans.

wobblyknees

Hoki wrote: »

In 24 hours this thread is now the same size as 10% of the main Arsenal thread & 25% of Evertons. Rafa is always quite the post puller

Look at you with your big going mad statistics head on you.

MementoMori

By my reckoning Rafa's final net spend works out at £67,090,850 over six seasons, which is an average net spend of £11,181,808 per season.

That's also the fact that this net spend is in a sense artifically inflated, by the poor quality of the players he inherited.

The 48 players who were at the club when Rafa took over and subsequently sold cost the club £99,050,000 and realised a paltry £51,839,150.

Of the 34 players that Rafa bought and sold during his tenure he spent £88,410,000 and recieved in £109,830,000 a profit of £21,420,000.

The current squad cost £139,450,000 and even at the most conservative valuation would probably realise a mimimum of £180m.

Really find it hard to see us getting anything similar in terms of quality of a manager.

Thanx 4 The Fish

MementoMori wrote: »

By my reckoning Rafa's final net spend works out at £67,090,850 over six seasons, which is an average net spend of £11,181,808 per season.

That's also the fact that this net spend is in a sense artifically inflated, by the poor quality of the players he inherited.

The 48 players who were at the club when Rafa took over and subsequently sold cost the club £99,050,000 and realised a paltry £51,839,150.

Of the 34 players that Rafa bought and sold during his tenure he spent £88,410,000 and recieved in £109,830,000 a profit of £21,420,000.

The current squad cost £139,450,000 and even at the most conservative valuation would probably realise a mimimum of £180m.

Really find it hard to see us getting anything similar in terms of quality of a manager.

Ahhh, good post mate but you are going to have to get rid before the net spend brigade arrive

lordgoat

quarryman wrote: »

+1!

Those that waged their imaginary internet monies have gone very quiet!

No some of them are just ignoring it, it seems...

Headshot wrote: »

id wager my access to the sf



no not really

Ah sure even if ya did HS just plough on through.... no shame in welching!!

missingtime

plasmaguy wrote: »

Are Ngog, Vorinon, Lucas and Aquilani fit to wear the Liverpool jersey?

Would you rate them in the same league as Aldridge, Houghtan, Barnes, Rush, Daglish, Whelan, Souness, Lawrenson, Neal?

And not all the greats of Liverpool's past were bought for a fortune. Most were bought for an absolute pittance

This just doesnt make sense. It doesn't. You cannot compare all time greats from years gone by to squad players of now. And then compare prices?

Christ man are you simply on a wind up?

wobblyknees

MementoMori wrote: »

By my reckoning Rafa's final net spend works out at £67,090,850 over six seasons, which is an average net spend of £11,181,808 per season.

That's also the fact that this net spend is in a sense artifically inflated, by the poor quality of the players he inherited.

The 48 players who were at the club when Rafa took over and subsequently sold cost the club £99,050,000 and realised a paltry £51,839,150.

Of the 34 players that Rafa bought and sold during his tenure he spent £88,410,000 and recieved in £109,830,000 a profit of £21,420,000.

The current squad cost £139,450,000 and even at the most conservative valuation would probably realise a mimimum of £180m.

Really find it hard to see us getting anything similar in terms of quality of a manager.

In fairness, its a good post and is pretty much based on facts you can find in the annual accounts. The thing is, if you want a more accurate picture, his net spend is closer to £15/20m per season for the first 3-4 years with a net spend figure of about £0m over the last year or two. Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho, Mark Hughes or Harry Redknapp he most certainly was not.

MementoMori

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Ahhh, good post mate but you are going to have to get rid before the net spend brigade arrive

The net spend brigade can suck it for all I care.

The notion that the gross spend is a better yardstick than the net spend is something I would expect from a slightly dim seven year old and I will threat such opinions with the lack of respect they deserve.

leninbenjamin

tbh wrote: »

it's not just a question of a fresh face tho. Any decent manager worth his salt would run a mile from the club at the moment. I truly believe that rafa fought the board on behalf of the fans.

Maybe, but then again, a new manager faces the prospect of being the one in the hotseat whenever the investment finally does arrive. Stabilize them for next season with the prospect of pushing on from there? Could do wonders for someone's CV, not to mention the whole ego trip of putting a club with such a rich history back on track. I think there will be more takers for the role than fans seem to think.

steelcityblues

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Robbie Keane finished the season at Celtic for a reason. Stats currently show that Peter Crouch is amongst the best strikers England has ever had too, do you think it is the case?

David Ngog was his back up plan for Torres. :rolleyes:

When a striker who was once a lock for 10-15 goals every season leaves only four months or so after joining, does it not say something about the manager who brought him?

tbh

steelcityblues wrote: »

David Ngog was his back up plan for Torres. :rolleyes:

When a striker who was once a lock for 10-15 goals every season leaves only four months or so after joining, does it not say something about the manager who brought him?

assuming it *was* the manager that brought him, and not, say, the soon to be ex-chief exec

Dub13

steelcityblues wrote: »

Robbie Keane is a class player and can't believe people would think otherwise, when the stats season-in, season-out don't lie!

Thats why he is struggling to find a club.The fact is he should never have been brought to Liverpool.

What stats are you talking about..?would it be the amount of seasons he got 20 or more goles..?that would be zero,the 20 goal a season mark is were most people cut of the best from the also rans.

steelcityblues

Maybe the exec had more of a say, but Keane needed at least a full season before being judged!

Thanx 4 The Fish

steelcityblues wrote: »

David Ngog was his back up plan for Torres. :rolleyes:

When a striker who was once a lock for 10-15 goals every season leaves only four months or so after joining, does it not say something about the manager who brought him?

If it was the manager who bought him I would say yes.

Robbie Keane
Tottenham Hotspur 15 (5) 6 1 0
League Celtic 15 (1) 0 1 0

David Ngog
Liverpool 11 (13) 5 1 0

You are fond of stats mate, there ya go, in 24 games, more than half as a sub, Ngog got 1 less goal than Keane who played 36 league matches. I am as happy to have Ngog who is on the up as opposed to Keane who is on the wane.

Now where is that roll eyes smiley when you need it....

steelcityblues

Dub13 wrote: »

Thats why he is struggling to find a club.The fact is he should never have been brought to Liverpool.

What stats are you talking about..?would it be the amount of seasons he got 20 or more goles..?that would be zero,the 20 goal a season mark is were most people cut of the best from the also rans.

Yet a lot of Pool fans will say that they didn't have the cash for sometime to buy someone like your describing. Contradictions maybe?

EDIT: Keane got over the 20 goal mark (all competitions) the season before joining Liverpool - 2007/08

Cypher_sounds

Lads i think ye should move on and forget about Benitez its for the good of the club and look forward to a new manager coming in.

wobblyknees

plasmaguy wrote: »

If any other manager of the top teams in Europe, ie Real Madried, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Barcelona, Man Utd, Chelsea, failed to win the domestic league in 6 attempts, how long would they last?

For Real Madrid the average stay of a manager who doesn't win the league is 1 year. Usually the same with the other top teams. It would be unheard of for the manager to stay 6 seasons with any of these sides.

Jose Mourinho was able to deliver a treble in Italy in his third season with a team of cast-offs, cheap signings, veterns and a bit of wheeling and dealing.

Benitez has delivered the sum total of a Champions League and FA Cup while having vastly more resources to spend than Mourinho.

In my view Benitez was lucky to win the CL with Liverpool in 2005.

Some Liverpool fans think Benitez is in the same league as Mourino. He clearly isn't.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

noodler

Dub13 wrote: »

Thats why he is struggling to find a club.The fact is he should never have been brought to Liverpool.

What stats are you talking about..?would it be the amount of seasons he got 20 or more goles..?that would be zero,the 20 goal a season mark is were most people cut of the best from the also rans.

Lets pick apart the player because Rafa made a mistake.

He had two 20+ goal a season periods in 06/07 and 07/08.

He has also scored around 150 PL goals.

steelcityblues

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

If it was the manager who bought him I would say yes.

Robbie Keane
Tottenham Hotspur 15 (5) 6 1 0
League Celtic 15 (1) 0 1 0

David Ngog
Liverpool 11 (13) 5 1 0

You are fond of stats mate, there ya go, in 24 games, more than half as a sub, Ngog got 1 less goal than Keane who played 36 league matches. I am as happy to have Ngog who is on the up as opposed to Keane who is on the wane.

Now where is that roll eyes smiley when you need it....

Don't be sly by not mentioning 5 seasons in a row when Keane got into double figures for Spurs and pretend that a guy uncapped at senior level was the smarter choice by Rafa!

ITT-Pat

monkey9

Dub13 wrote: »

Thats why he is struggling to find a club.The fact is he should never have been brought to Liverpool.

What stats are you talking about..?would it be the amount of seasons he got 20 or more goles..?that would be zero,the 20 goal a season mark is were most people cut of the best from the also rans.

It makes me laugh. Spurs could have got 19m out of Liverpool for Robbie Keane, but instead, Harry brought him back to Spurs having just received around five or six million.

Rafa to this day gets stick about it, yet Harry loans Keane out to a team in an inferior and poor league and nothing at all is said!!! It's almost as if British managers get away with a lot more

But than couldn't be true, surely!!

wobblyknees

noodler wrote: »

Lets pick apart the player because Rafa made a mistake.

He had two 20+ goal a season periods in 06/07 and 07/08.

He has also scored around 150 PL goals.

Rafa wanted Barry, he got Keane. Keane was given plenty of starts and game time but the simple fact is, Keane did not play very well in his time at the club. His performance against his former club (spurs) at the time is remembered as a bit of a joke by those who were there on the day. Anyway, it wasn't working so Keane returned to Spurs. He did not play very well for Spurs. Spurs shipped him out to Celtic. Cue goalfest in a poor league.

Dub13

Yes Keane got 20 a season once maybe twice if you count all competitions.In the PL he averages between 10 & 15 so he is hardily top class.

Take the green specks of lads,he is a slightly above average journey man.

Mr.Nice Guy

In fairness to Keane he is not really an out-and-out striker. He is better suited to linking up with a front man like he did at Spurs with Berbatov.

I think he was quite unlucky when Torres got injured because he had to try and fill in for him and he's not best suited to that. From memory when they played together it seemed to have potential. Didn't they carve Everton open at one point?

steelcityblues

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes Keane got 20 a season once maybe twice if you count all competitions.In the PL he averages between 10 & 15 so he is hardily top class.

Take the green specks of lads,he is a slightly above average journey man.

Yet he has found the net against Germany, Italy, France, Spain at international level.

Would not mind having a 'journeyman' like that at my club.

noodler

wobblyknees wrote: »

Rafa wanted Barry, he got Keane. Keane was given plenty of starts and game time but the simple fact is, Keane did not play very well in his time at the club. His performance against his former club (spurs) at the time is remembered as a bit of a joke by those who were there on the day. Anyway, it wasn't working so Keane returned to Spurs. He did not play very well for Spurs. Spurs shipped him out to Celtic. Cue goalfest in a poor league.

He could have been better but he defo made an impact. Can think of at least half a dozen games he made an vital impact in 6 short months.


Regardless, he made a much better impact than a bunch of Rafa signings but wasn't given nearly as much time. No doubt the money recouped will be used justification but the fact remains he was a Rafa mistake no matter your stance.

Thanx 4 The Fish

steelcityblues wrote: »

Don't be sly by not mentioning 5 seasons in a row when Keane got into double figures for Spurs and pretend that a guy uncapped at senior level was the smarter choice by Rafa!

Hardly being sly, it is the most recent season and the easiest stats to get to.

Double figures, that's great going for an international striker, why with stats like that he should be at Man U with Berbatov...

And I do think that a guy who was uncapped at senior level is still a better choice by Rafa, he is a young lad, can only get better and will only get better with games. We will just have to wait and see I suppose, how about a small wager in this thread of welching that Ngog outscores Keane in the premiership next season?

Dub13

steelcityblues wrote: »

Yet he has found the net against Germany, Italy, France, Spain at international level.

If you play 100 odd games you will get the odd long ball that falls right for you to have a belt.

noodler

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Hardly being sly, it is the most recent season and the easiest stats to get to.

Double figures, that's great going for an international striker, why with stats like that he should be at Man U with Berbatov...

And I do think that a guy who was uncapped at senior level is still a better choice by Rafa, he is a young lad, can only get better and will only get better with games. We will just have to wait and see I suppose, how about a small wager in this thread of welching that Ngog outscores Keane in the premiership next season?

I will take that bet on the condition Keane is actually still in the Premiership next season. I am not even the lad's biggest fan but I reckon it is a sure thing if he gets the gametime.

steelcityblues

Dub13 wrote: »

If you play 100 odd games you will get the odd long ball that falls right for you to have a belt.

How did former Kop hero John Aldridge fare against the big nations again?

Thanx 4 The Fish

noodler wrote: »

but the fact remains he was a Rafa mistake no matter your stance.

It doesn't though, you are just not reading. Rafa asked for Barry and got keane. How can that be considered a Rafa mistake? He did not want the player, Keane did not help himself with the attitude and he was sold. He ahs since gone on to do nothing and be shipped out to Celtic.

steelcityblues wrote: »

How did former Kop hero John Aldridge fare against the big nations again?

Not sure how pertinent that is TBH, you were the one that brought up International goals, nobody else, also, as far as I remember ( and I am knocking on a bit) Aldridge was not signed by Rafa! Oh hang on, don't tell me he has been included in rafas net spend too...

noodler

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

In fairness to Keane he is not really an out-and-out striker. He is better suited to linking up with a front man like he did at Spurs with Berbatov.

I think he was quite unlucky when Torres got injured because he had to try and fill in for him and he's not best suited to that. From memory when they played together it seemed to have potential. Didn't they carve Everton open at one point?

Uh huh, Keane's rescuing of a ball that was about to go out of play set up Torres for the opener.

wobblyknees

Bit of a dignified response from the captain goalkeeper.

"It's a sad moment for Liverpool, for Rafa Benitez and for the players who have been with him
"He was a very important person for the club for six years. Liverpool grew with him and Rafa also grew thanks to Liverpool.
"I hope that this crisis passes. That a person so important for the club as Rafa Benitez has left is news that you never would have expected and that you never would have believed.
"The only thing left for me is to thank him for his confidence during all this time. I wish him the best of luck."

mike65

Keane Shmeen, Celtic is his level (or Wolves/Blackburn in the EPL).