Rafa is gone.(mod warning @ post 762)

wobblyknees

noodler wrote: »

He could have been better but he defo made an impact. Can think of at least half a dozen games he made an vital impact in 6 short months.


Regardless, he made a much better impact than a bunch of Rafa signings but wasn't given nearly as much time. No doubt the money recouped will be used justification but the fact remains he was a Rafa mistake no matter your stance.

Take two.

Rafa wanted Barry, he got Keane. Keane was given plenty of starts and game time but the simple fact is, Keane did not play very well in his time at the club.

eagle eye

Still defending the ex-Liverpool manager and dishing Ireland's all time leading goalscorer I see.

And Keane never got a chance at Liverpool, he didn't know if he would be starting from one week to the next, and he was just starting to look good with Torres when he got injured. They never started together again iirc.

noodler

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

It doesn't though, you are just not reading. Rafa asked for Barry and got keane. How can that be considered a Rafa mistake? He did not want the player, Keane did not help himself with the attitude and he was sold. He ahs since gone on to do nothing and be shipped out to Celtic.

You are saying Rafa didn't want Keane? Even the mos outlandish story involving Keane being imposed on Rafa mentions he was at least second choice in his transfer wish list.

How can it not be considered a Rafa mistake?

Now if you are saying that Rafa never wanted Keane at all, then I have no idea where you are getting that from, but if true it reflects badly on the manager IMO - several managers quit the PL that season because players were signed over their heads.

What was wrong with Keane's attitude at Liverpool?

PHB

I must say, some of the stuff surrounding Rafa really pisses me off. Alll one extreme or another extreme.

He wasn't a **** manager, he wasn't the best manager. He was a good manager, who was given similar resources to United and significantly more than Arsenal over the course of five seasons. He was constrained, just like Fergie and Wenger were. He made some great signings in the transfer window, but made more mistakes. As such, he wasn't able to win the league. If he had had similar resources to Chelsea, perhaps he woulda won the league. But he didn't. Fergie was better than him with similar resources and managed to win the league because of it.

Wherever he goes next, he'll have a good shot at winning the league depending on his resources. If he goes to Inter, I'd say he'll do very well. If he goes lower, I wouldn't expect him to win the league. Good manager, better manager imo than say MON, Redknapp, Hodgson etc. Worse manager than Fergie, Wenger, Mourinho.

All in all, he won a Champions League with Liverpool, an amazing achievment, made all the more amazing by the squad in which he won it with. IMO, he is a master tactician. I think he has an ability to look at another team and identify a way to rip them apart in a manner than I do think is unmatched in the world. I'd say he is the best in the world at that. However where I think he falls down is in his transfer dealings, where he made lots of mistakes, and in his ability to build a team to play in a certain style, rather than to adapt to another style and beat that. I think thats why he was much better in cup competitions than in leagues.

Thanx 4 The Fish

eagle eye wrote: »

I love this rubbish. Can you find me proof of that, link please?

Go and have a peek yourself, there is plenty of it out there.

Ah you deleted your post, good work there, I assume you found some then?

noodler

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Go and have a peek yourself, there is plenty of it out there.

Ah you deleted your post, good work there, I assume you found some then?

noodler wrote: »

You are saying Rafa didn't want Keane? Even the mos outlandish story involving Keane being imposed on Rafa mentions he was at least second choice in his transfer wish list.

How can it not be considered a Rafa mistake?

Now if you are saying that Rafa never wanted Keane at all, then I have no idea where you are getting that from, but if true it reflects badly on the manager IMO - several managers quit the PL that season because players were signed over their heads.

What was wrong with Keane's attitude at Liverpool?

So again, where have you read Rafa didn't want Keane at all? Are you making that bit up?

eagle eye

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Go and have a peek yourself, there is plenty of it out there.

Ah you deleted your post, good work there, I assume you found some then?

No I deleted it because I realised after I'd posted it that he didn't actually say that.

steelcityblues

noodler wrote: »

You are saying Rafa didn't want Keane? Even the mos outlandish story involving Keane being imposed on Rafa mentions he was at least second choice in his transfer wish list.

How can it not be considered a Rafa mistake?

Now if you are saying that Rafa never wanted Keane at all, then I have no idea where you are getting that from, but if true it reflects badly on the manager IMO - several managers quit the PL that season because players were signed over their heads.

What was wrong with Keane's attitude at Liverpool?

Well said. the revisionism of some here saying Keane wasn't Premier League class, or even international class is a laugh, when they consider raw, unproven players like Ngog to be 'safer' choices for the club.

wobblyknees

eagle eye wrote: »

Still defending the ex-Liverpool manager and dishing Ireland's all time leading goalscorer I see.

And Keane never got a chance at Liverpool, he didn't know if he would be starting from one week to the next, and he was just starting to look good with Torres when he got injured. They never started together again iirc.

He scored 7 in 29 matches. You're probaly right though, he should have been allowed another 29 games to reach double figures.

Thanx 4 The Fish

wobblyknees wrote: »

He scored 7 in 29 matches. You're probaly right though, he should have been allowed another 29 games to reach double figures.

Thats a tad harsh. He was scoring an average of 4 and a bit goals every ten games, another 7 or 8 games should have seen him there.

wobblyknees

noodler wrote: »

So again, where have you read Rafa didn't want Keane at all? Are you making that bit up?

I was told by a number of people that he wanted Barry over Keane. This was picked up and ran by the press at the time as well.

Do you think 7 in 29 was good enough? Do you think he played well enough? Even now, with hindsight, that he has been moved on by Spurs also.

wobblyknees

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Thats a tad harsh. He was scoring an average of 4 and a bit goals every ten games, another 7 or 8 games should have seen him there.

I take your point, I was only joking, but I don't think he was playing well enough to break any records, let alone score more than about 10 - 15 in the league.

tony1kenobi

jank wrote: »

Looks like I will be collecting earlier than expected.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65508600&postcount=25276

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65441821&postcount=24907

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65441829&postcount=24908

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65440626&postcount=24901

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65440597&postcount=24900

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65440349&postcount=24898

Not a poor man at all headshot

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65441898&postcount=24910


So are we men or are we mice?

Well thought out,researched ultimate burn.

Mr Alan

you can go you own way, GO YOUR OWN WAY!

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

you can go you own way, GO YOUR OWN WAY!

:rolleyes:

Peyton Manning

What's happening with these bets anyway, has an outcome been reached?

wobblyknees

steelcityblues wrote: »

Well said. the revisionism of some here saying Keane wasn't Premier League class, or even international class is a laugh, when they consider raw, unproven players like Ngog to be 'safer' choices for the club.

Nobody is saying he wasn't a good player in years gone by, or that he's been one of Irelands best players for a long time. He also had his absolute best season (for Spurs) the year prior to joining Liverpool, but his scoring average was about 15 a season.

The thing that springs to mind is, I do remember him scoring his fair share of goals vs some of the lower placed teams.

davyjose

PHB wrote: »

I must say, some of the stuff surrounding Rafa really pisses me off. Alll one extreme or another extreme.

He wasn't a **** manager, he wasn't the best manager. He was a good manager, who was given similar resources to United and significantly more than Arsenal over the course of five seasons. He was constrained, just like Fergie and Wenger were. He made some great signings in the transfer window, but made more mistakes. As such, he wasn't able to win the league. If he had had similar resources to Chelsea, perhaps he woulda won the league. But he didn't. Fergie was better than him with similar resources and managed to win the league because of it.

Wherever he goes next, he'll have a good shot at winning the league depending on his resources. If he goes to Inter, I'd say he'll do very well. If he goes lower, I wouldn't expect him to win the league. Good manager, better manager imo than say MON, Redknapp, Hodgson etc. Worse manager than Fergie, Wenger, Mourinho.

All in all, he won a Champions League with Liverpool, an amazing achievment, made all the more amazing by the squad in which he won it with. IMO, he is a master tactician. I think he has an ability to look at another team and identify a way to rip them apart in a manner than I do think is unmatched in the world. I'd say he is the best in the world at that. However where I think he falls down is in his transfer dealings, where he made lots of mistakes, and in his ability to build a team to play in a certain style, rather than to adapt to another style and beat that. I think thats why he was much better in cup competitions than in leagues.

Great Post PHB. the problem for Liverpool now though, is that they have to find a manager as good or better than him. he mightn't be as good as Jose or fergie, but he's probably going to be better than whoever he's replaced with. Plus, they've just thrown away £6million.

steelcityblues

wobblyknees wrote: »

Nobody is saying he wasn't a good player in years gone by, or that he's been one of Irelands best players for a long time. He also had his absolute best season (for Spurs) the year prior to joining Liverpool, but his scoring average was about 15 a season.

The thing that springs to mind is, I do remember him scoring his fair share of goals vs some of the lower placed teams.

Yet, those were the teams that cost Pool the league two seasons ago! Maybe, he would have made the difference. Who knows?

eagle eye

wobblyknees wrote: »

He scored 7 in 29 matches. You're probaly right though, he should have been allowed another 29 games to reach double figures.

How many starts?

How many goals when playing with Torres. Why was he played up top on his own when he is clearly not suited to that position? Like everybody and there mothers knows he cannot play as a lone centre forward.

lordgoat

Archimedes wrote: »

What's happening with these bets anyway, has an outcome been reached?

I asked earlier Archie, no word as yet, that i can tell. Was hoping the big dog (Jank) would have been in to fill us in. Welchers beware!

It'll prob just fade away....

wobblyknees

steelcityblues wrote: »

Yet, those were the teams that cost Pool the league two seasons ago! Maybe, he would have made the difference. Who knows?

He was given 29 opportunities to make a difference. He only scored 7 goals. 5 in the league.

_blank_

lordgoat wrote: »

It'll prob just fade away....

lol

wobblyknees

eagle eye wrote: »

How many starts?

How many goals when playing with Torres. Why was he played up top on his own when he is clearly not suited to that position? Like everybody and there mothers knows he cannot play as a lone centre forward.

Everybody and their mothers don't have uefa pro licences and european cups and league titles on their cv.

wobblyknees

Great pics:

~Rebel~

Right, just caught up, 2 things.

First, Plasmaguy, lol, classic!

Secondly, Keane!?!?!? Again!?!?! Are you kidding me!?!?!? It's only been like a day or 2 since the last time! Christ, it was a year and a half ago! He came, he moaned, he got put through on goal and then turned out wide as he had no pace to beat the tracking defender, he threw his arms up in the air and he left. He is merely a footnote in the annals of LFC and really doesn't deserve to be brought up every week! I miss Bellamy, Crouch, Pongolle and even Cisse far more then fukin Robbie "Wha?" Keane!

jank

lordgoat wrote: »

I asked earlier Archie, no word as yet, that i can tell. Was hoping the big dog (Jank) would have been in to fill us in. Welchers beware!

It'll prob just fade away....

Well woke up this morning to the news that Rafa has officially gone. (I live in Sydney)
Was expecting a few PM's to sort out payments, discuss the possability of a charitable donation etc, you know get the ball rolling.

Haven't gotten any so far, so looks like I will have to put on my debt collecting hat for the day.

mayordenis access privilages
ShamoBuc 100 euro
kingshankly 100 euro *(in fairness to you, you have come straight out and said you would pay and also bail out denis so hats off to you)

I will PM the three of ye.

Mike65 gets away with it as I don't think a bet was made

Also the post that set it all off.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65435257&postcount=24846

It's hillarious actually. Anytime I have given my frank opinion about Rafa on the liverpool super thread a mob like torrent of abuse decends on you telling you are wrong, pathetic, etc. Well this time I was right and some posters were foolish enough to let their emotions get ahead of their better judgement.

eagle eye

wobblyknees wrote: »

Everybody and their mothers don't have uefa pro licences and european cups and league titles on their cv.

Sure thats what I'm getting at, a manager that is rated so highly should know that Robbie Keane can't play as a lone centre forward when the average Joe on the street knows it.

wobblyknees

eagle eye wrote: »

Sure thats what I'm getting at, a manager that is rated so highly should know that Robbie Keane can't play as a lone centre forward when the average Joe on the street knows it.

The average joe is clueless and thinks Robbie Keane is world class and scored loads of goals for Liverpool.

Oat23

G'wan Jank!

eagle eye

wobblyknees wrote: »

The average joe is clueless and thinks Robbie Keane is world class and scored loads of goals for Liverpool.

Lol, sure Rafa paid £20 million for him. Are you saying that he was wrong to pay that much for Keane and that he is not world class?

I know exactly what Robbie Keane done at Liverpool. I know too that he scored 3 goals in 2 PL games at the end of December '09 and found himself dropped for the next two PL games.

wobblyknees

eagle eye wrote: »

Lol, sure Rafa paid £20 million for him. Are you saying that he was wrong to pay that much for Keane and that he is not world class?

I know exactly what Robbie Keane done at Liverpool. I know too that he scored 3 goals in 2 PL games at the end of December '09 and found himself dropped for the next two PL games.

Do you? It took him until November to score his first 2 league goals vs WBA. He scored a decent goal vs Arsenal and another 2 vs Bolton on boxing day. And that was it. 5 league goals.

5starpool

eagle eye wrote: »

Lol, sure Rafa paid £20 million for him. Are you saying that he was wrong to pay that much for Keane and that he is not world class?

I know exactly what Robbie Keane done at Liverpool. I know too that he scored 3 goals in 2 PL games at the end of December '09 and found himself dropped for the next two PL games.

Will you give over. Please.

daithijjj

I dont have any problem with the signing of keane, keanes record for liverpool, or the selling of keane. For a player who didnt fit in, him being in the squad correlated to us being top of the league (i know i know). Bang on about his record all you like, crouch never even threatened the net for the first 3 months and played every match.

What i do have a problem with is the idea that a player like keane 'would only' or 'was only' going to be signed by the manager if barry was in the team or signed. Thats a fkin ridiculously anal view on why to sign any player. Now i dont know if that was a fact or not but its one of the small issues i had with rafa, essentially, brutal over-analysing and crippling strategic mindset with no room for adaptation. This is just my opinion and i will not be swayed

lordgoat

I hear Rafa asked for 6M as he put on a few bets with Jank. He also lost access to Lol TCN and AH.

The Muppet

eagle eye wrote: »

Lol, sure Rafa paid £20 million for him. Are you saying that he was wrong to pay that much for Keane and that he is not world class?

I know exactly what Robbie Keane done at Liverpool. I know too that he scored 3 goals in 2 PL games at the end of December '09 and found himself dropped for the next two PL games.

Arguing the point that Keane failure at Liverpool was solely due to poor performance is rubbish. I don't think he ever played a full 90 minutes for them and as you say even when he did play well he was dropped. He was never given the chance to settle into the team or build his confidence.

Rafa plainly played politics with Keane in his power struggle in the club and it worked to an extent, He subsequently tried to do the same with other players and it backfired on him causing the unrest in the dressing room that is said to have been a factor in his dismissal.

kingshankly

I haven't seen many reports in support of benitez from the players Reina excluded,(maybe I missed them) which would suggest that indeed all was not well with rafa and his players

Villain

mayordenis wrote: »

by looking at what they have both won. Pretty simple.

Umm a man that doesn't honour a bet! I would have thought higher of you tbh

shotamoose

Reina has been the only one to comment (that I've seen), and he was very positive towards Rafa. So I'm not seeing much support for the "lost the dressing room" school so far either. But time will tell.

ShiverinEskimo

shotamoose wrote: »

Reina has been the only one to comment (that I've seen), and he was very positive towards Rafa. So I'm not seeing much support for the "lost the dressing room" school so far either. But time will tell.

I'd put Reina as one of the biggest voices of the dressing room too. He was by far Liverpool's most passionate player this season - not to mention best player.

Mental Mickey

I don't know if it's been said over the last few pages(I'm too ****in' lazy to search), but I for one am not happy that Kenny Dalglish is involved in the search for the new manager!?

We need to get away from all of this boot room ***** if we are to progress as a club and keep up with the likes of Chelski & Man U.

Chardee MacDennis

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I don't know if it's been said over the last few pages(I'm too ****in' lazy to search), but I for one am not happy that Kenny Dalglish is involved in the search for the new manager!?

We need to get away from all of this boot room ***** if we are to progress as a club and keep up with the likes of Chelski & Man U.

what difference does it make if it is "boot room ****"? also kenny is the only footballer left in the hierarchy at the club at the moment - it would be madness not to get him to help...

noodler

wobblyknees wrote: »

I was told by a number of people that he wanted Barry over Keane. This was picked up and ran by the press at the time as well.

Do you think 7 in 29 was good enough? Do you think he played well enough? Even now, with hindsight, that he has been moved on by Spurs also.

No no, be very careful now - you are missing the argument completely.

If he wanted Keane, even as a second choice target, then Rafa takes the blame - the idea being that he asked for him.

You are bringing up the Barry over Keane argument which has been tacitly accepted but Thnax4thefish seemed to imply Rafa never wanted Keane at all.

See the difference?

Crucial assist in the win against Everton
Crucial Assist in the win against Boro.
Crucial goals in the win against Bolton
Crucial goals in the win against West Brom
Crucial goal in the game against Arsenal away.
Crucial goal in the CL game away to Athletico.
Less crucial goal at home to PSV.
Less criucial assist for N'Gog away to PSV.

Nobody is saying he was at peak form but you don't invest that amount of money in a player and then let him go after 6 months (especially when your number 1 striker is turning out to be injury prone).

And if you do let him go that soon you have to accept that you made an incorrect judgement call to begin with overall.

~Rebel~

BastardPrince wrote: »

what difference does it make if it is "boot room ****"? also kenny is the only footballer left in the hierarchy at the club at the moment - it would be madness not to get him to help...

Exactly. They're not asking him to manage the team, just to lend his footballing experience to find Rafa's replacement. Kenny may not be up to managing anymore, but he's still a very knowledgeable football man and I feel a LOT better knowing that he's being included in the hunt for a new manager, rather then paying some consultant. I mean, really, who better then Kenny for something like this tbh? Knows his football and will want whats best for the club, not whats best for G&H (a yes man who's just delighted to be in the job rather then worthy of the job).

Dub13

noodler wrote: »

So again, where have you read Rafa didn't want Keane at all? Are you making that bit up?

Its not that he did not want him at all Keane was very low down his list.

Post 27 is the one you are looking for.
http://irishkop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224437

noodler

Dub13 wrote: »

Its not that he did not want him at all Kean was very low down his list.

Post 27 is the one you are looking for.
http://irishkop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224437

The story has gone (over the years or months) from he didn't want Keane to Keane was second choice and now Keane was apparently way down in the transfer pecking order?

Do you really believe that? I mean cosidering how much he cost? How many more players could really have been ahead of him? He was hardly an easy signing to make either - the whole thing was pretty protracted - surely there were easier targets?

Regardless, Rafa wanted Keane and got him -that is the main point for me. Anyone trying to even hint at some situation where Rafa couldn't make Keane work without the presence of (the now universally agreed overrated) Barryis potty.

The Muppet

Dub13 wrote: »

Its not that he did not want him at all Kean was very low down his list.

Post 27 is the one you are looking for.
http://irishkop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224437

How long was this list?

Dub13

It was Parry's fault as he blew most of the transfer budget on a player that Rafa would not have minded coming in for a much much lower price.

The Muppet

Dub13 wrote: »

It was Parry's fault as he blew most of the transfer budget on a player that Rafa would not have minded coming in for a much much lower price.

I believe that. I also believe it's explains why Rafa didn't give Keane a fair chance at Liverpool. Rafa used Keane to get back at Parry.

ShamoBuc

jank wrote: »

Well woke up this morning to the news that Rafa has officially gone. (I live in Sydney)
Was expecting a few PM's to sort out payments, discuss the possability of a charitable donation etc, you know get the ball rolling.

Haven't gotten any so far, so looks like I will have to put on my debt collecting hat for the day.

mayordenis access privilages
ShamoBuc 100 euro
kingshankly 100 euro *(in fairness to you, you have come straight out and said you would pay and also bail out denis so hats off to you)

I will PM the three of ye.

Mike65 gets away with it as I don't think a bet was made

Also the post that set it all off.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65435257&postcount=24846

.

replied to his PM, 96fm radiothon donation if acceptable to Jank

conincided with a little tax refund so not too pissed off;)