Why are we Irish so obsessed with the Israel-Palestine conflict?

prinz

Laminations wrote: »

Yes I do actually. Like all side takers in this debate you simplify the conflict and demonise the enemy, lengthening threads and the conflict itself in a similar manner. You think one side is right, I think both sides are wrong, arguing about the magnitude of wrongness only delays peace

+1. Which undermines all the groups who want peace/resolution etc but at the same time begin from a completely one-sided position.

wes

Laminations wrote: »

And a capiitalised HATE will solve this how?

How exactly will anyone comments on a message board solve anything?!? I am very confused here....

sceptre

And again, bolded for your convenience:

sceptre wrote: »

Veering close to a discussion on the actual conflict in a small few posts folks. There are other places for that, please keep the wheels away from the ditch.

/mod

It's not difficult to remember, if people ignore it I'll assume you're not interested in following basic and obvious requests and act accordingly. What this thread is about is the interest/fascination with the conflict, not the conflict itself.

Deep Easterly

prinz wrote: »

+1. Which undermines all the groups who want peace/resolution etc but at the same time begin from a completely one-sided position.

I agree that both sides are not completely right, but to give both sides the same level of wrongness is just a neat way to dumb-down the aggressive acts of one and vindicate even more the other.

Scofflaw

This is a thread about the Irish obsession with the Israel-Palestine conflict, not a thread about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Please stay on topic, however obsessed you are.

moderately,
Scofflaw

mrboswell

Laminations wrote: »

Yes I do actually. Like all side takers in this debate you simplify the conflict and demonise the enemy, lengthening threads and the conflict itself in a similar manner. You think one side is right, I think both sides are wrong, arguing about the magnitude of wrongness only delays peace

I don't think one side is right.
As I commented previously, a lot of it relates to things that happened to Irish people.

I, and I imagine a great deal of Irish people, believe that although a small proportion of an oppressed population may take extreme actions against its oppressor, it does not justify disregarding the human rights of the whole oppressed population.

walshb

It is not just Israel and Palestine that we are obsessed with. Ireland have been sticking their oar in all over the world into other countries affairs. It's been going on for many years now.
Marvelous little country we are.

P. Breathnach

I note the two mod warnings in the past few posts, and suggest that it is difficult to address the question without indicating where one stands on the conflict. I'll try: the Middle-East conflict is the most dangerous of all the conflicts we have witnessed since WW2. It is the wedge that drives the western world and the Islamic world apart, and it is an issue that could trigger a bigger war than we have ever seen before.

So yes, I am very interested in what happens. It threatens my life.

irishh_bob

Sleepy wrote: »

I think a lot of it is to do with the American/British support of Israel. Were the Israeli actions being carried out by any other state it's safe to say there'd have been UN sanctions against the perpetrators for years, if not decades.

i think this is the crux of the matter , tutsis in rwanda or congoleese millitants dont have the unconditional support of the strongest nation on earth , as such , the israeli - pallestinian conflict garners a lot more publicity

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

It is not just Israel and Palestine that we are obsessed with. Ireland have been sticking their oar in all over the world into other countries affairs. It's been going on for many years now.
Marvelous little country we are.

Jaysus forbid we lift our snouts from the trough now and again to assist our fellows in worse straits than ourselves......

Shea O'Meara

Sleepy wrote: »

I think a lot of it is to do with the American/British support of Israel. Were the Israeli actions being carried out by any other state it's safe to say there'd have been UN sanctions against the perpetrators for years, if not decades.

Agreed. Also as with China, I'm always watching with interest to see how far they will push violating civil rights as the west looks on. As long as there is something in it for us, (financialy/trade or geographical worth) we will protest if pressed, but not want to rock the boat less we lose out.

omega666

- we have more ties to this conflict that any of the rest.
- we can relate to the suffering of the palistinans from seeing a similar conflict (to a point) in the North every day years ago/
- Loyalist link to israel/mossad including supplying weapons the loyalists.
- a guinine pity for a lot of inoccent people suffering
- being brought into it by the like's of the israels using forged irish passports
- Isreal being the centre of all religions including christianity

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

It is not just Israel and Palestine that we are obsessed with. Ireland have been sticking their oar in all over the world into other countries affairs. It's been going on for many years now.
Marvelous little country we are.

do you consider Irish peacekeepers in place like Chad as this little country sticking our oar in?

as a well known man said " all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to nothing"

with this in mind i'm glad i live in a country that seeks to intervene to help others rather than turning a blind eye to suffering and hardship.

junder

danbohan wrote: »

so that would explain why loylists fly Israeli flags ,provies on left ornges with the facists

Actully, no it does not explain why some loyalists choose to fly isreali flags

amacachi

Wibbs wrote: »

Sadly the loud nutters get the airtime.

And the votes.

P. Breathnach

junder wrote: »

Actully, no it does not explain why some loyalists choose to fly isreali flags

There are many parallels between the Israeli/Palestinian relationship and that between the Planters and the dispossessed in Ulster.

Madd Finn

There could be a number of reasons.

I think one is that it is simply a conflict that has captured the imagination of people in the West. Seventy years ago, it was the Spanish Civil War which exercised people's imaginations. To the extent that thousands of people from around the world with little or no familial or ancestral connection with Spain volunteered to fight in a particularly vicious and hopelessly internecine civil war.

They fought on both sides too, that is if you wish to simplify the struggle to being one of merely two sides. It was of course infinitely more complex. As too is the Middle Eastern Question.

Why has it captured the imagination? Perhaps because it was the international community which gave Israel its independence. The UN voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs rejected the very idea. The Zionists accepted the principle wholeheartedly but of course were never prepared to accept the boundaries. So they started ethnically cleansing Arab villages and indeed whole cities.

Some of the worst massacres (eg Deir Yassin) happened BEFORE the neighbouring Arab countries invaded, which Israel always insists gave them the right to hold on to territories conquered in the subsequent war.

Also, as has been said, there is the sight of a supposed democracy behaving like a Police stated and demonising the existing community as being nothing but a bunch of murderers and cut throats.

karma_

junder wrote: »

Actully, no it does not explain why some loyalists choose to fly isreali flags

The reason that Loyalists fly an Israeli flag is purely reactionary. It started after Republicans began flying Palestinian flags.

Lockstep

I must admit thinking the same thing as the OP

I can see why individual incidents have such resonance but I am slightly confused by the sheer energy that has gone into this particular flottila scenario.

I know fairly little about the whole Israel/Palestine history. From trying to educate myself on the subject, I see incredible brutality on both sides, and yet at varying points, I've been called anti-Semitic and Islamophobic for my frustration with both sides.
Immediately after the flotilla incident, I had friends arguing for both Israel and the activists. Neither side would admit that both sides fecked up here. Something about the conflict seems to foster incredibly black and white viewpoints and where any fence-sitting is seen as dangerous equivocation.
The entire situation is extremely annoying; either Israel or Palestine could enact the most heinous crimes tomorrow morning, and I can guarantee you I could easily find friends who would rationalise the action.

In this scenario, I feel Israel was far more at fault but the flotilla was not blameless in it's provocation.

shofukan

We can quite easily empathise with the oppressed.

BlaasForRafa

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There are many parallels between the Israeli/Palestinian relationship and that between the Planters and the dispossessed in Ulster.

sigh, planters and dispossessed....typical shinner.

P. Breathnach

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

sigh, planters and dispossessed....typical shinner.

I note the mods have reacted to your post, but I cannot allow what I see as a slur go unchallenged: the Sinn Féin sympathisers here would not consider me to be one of their number. But I don't deny that there was a plantation in Ulster, and that involved dispossessing those who previously held the land.

Nodin

Essentially, if you think colonialism is wrong, why should it suddenly be ok in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

Japer

P. Breathnach wrote: »

the Sinn Féin sympathisers here would not consider me to be one of their number.

other people who read your comment(s) however are entitled to their own private opinion

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But I don't deny that there was a plantation in Ulster, and that involved dispossessing those who previously held the land.

Nobody denies their was a plantation in Ulster, and that was not the issue. Do you ever talk in terms of the plantation of America and how the red indians were dispossessed there ? No, thought not.
Most people in Ireland do not know much about the Israel-Palestine conflict and have never been near that part of the world. As someone else said the flotilla was not blameless in it's provocation. Its as well to remember too the countless rocket and bomb attacks on Israel, and why they take their defence so seriously.

Scofflaw

There's an ongoing use of smears here by those on the "pro-Israeli" side. Pack it in, or look to lose posting privileges.

Also, there's a strong off-topic drift.

moderately,
Scofflaw

wes

I would also like to point out, that there are 2 sides who strongly disagree with one another, a lot more than in say other similar conflicts.

Very few people, would for example take the side of Sudanese regime, in the conflict in Darfur, and seeing as there is little disagreement, you tend not to see massive discussions with 2 side argueing with one another heatedly. This would also give the impression, that this conflict is cared about more than others, when it is also a case of disagreement, leading to lengthy debate.

Laminations

Japer wrote: »

other people who read your comment(s) however are entitled to their own private opinion

Nobody denies their was a plantation in Ulster, and that was not the issue. Do you ever talk in terms of the plantation of America and how the red indians were dispossessed there ? No, thought not.
Most people in Ireland do not know much about the Israel-Palestine conflict and have never been near that part of the world. As someone else said the flotilla was not blameless in it's provocation. Its as well to remember too the countless rocket and bomb attacks on Israel, and why they take their defence so seriously.

The flotilla was blameless, it was a peaceful boat that could have been allowed in or for the many difficulties that would have caused Israel, it could have been turned away or disabled in gazan or Israeli waters. The palestinians are not blameless however, both sides have blood on their hands, firing rockets offensively (even if ineffective) cannot be considered defence.

Second I don't know whether scofflaw considers me pro Israeli but I know others do, simply because I advocate for peace and see BOTH sides actions as a barrier to this. The thread about the unconditional cease fire is a great one.

On topic, I think someone touched on it, this conflict draws such interest in part for it's potential to end very badly for the world. The Congo, darfur etc are localised- no nukes there, no chance of escalation to world war 3

LordSutch

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with all of the above, I can also confirm that most of Ireland (not all) has an internal & external image of being very Pro-Palistinian, whilst also being very 'Anti-Israeli'. I get the impression that its some kind of 'perceived' identification thing between Irish Nationalists & Arabs? (thats my perception), and the fact that they (The Palistinians) live next door to a very powerful neighbour, whom they really, detest & wish to annihilate.

karma_

Camelot wrote: »

and the fact that they (The Palistinians) live next door to a very powerful neighbour, whom they really, detest & wish to annihilate.

Interesting you should put it this way, I would think for every Palestinian who feels that way there is an Israeli who feels the same way about wanting to 'annihilate' them.

Nodin

Camelot wrote: »

and the fact that they (The Palistinians) live next door to a very powerful neighbour, whom they really, detest & wish to annihilate.

Not that you'd stereotype one side.

LordSutch

My real comment revolves about the Irish obsession & identification with . . .

Nodin

And of course the idea of an ideological position against colonialism couldn't enter into it....

LordSutch

The "ideological position against colonialism" is dependent on one's perspective regarding this islands relationship with the island next door, and you know whares I stand on that. IMO (Colonies are not just 24 miles away), I would also argue that our ancestry is so interlinked within this little group of islands that the post 'Colonial' empathy with . . . does not compute from my perspective.

We were administered from London, now its Dublin!

Nodin

Camelot wrote: »

The "ideological position against colonialism" is dependent on one's perspective regarding this islands relationship

Republicans, socialists, left wingers and probably the majority of people in Western Europe regardless of political affiliation are oppossed to colonialism. Your views on whether or not the Irish experience was such are neither here nor there.

LordSutch

Well thats that then . . .

I support Israel in her struggle with Hamas.

Kev_ps3

To answer the OP's question, I think its got to do with the fact we can sympathize with the Palestinian people who have been invaded and treated like dirt. Those on the pro-Israeli side are generally the protestant anglo-Irish who have no problem invading other country's and raping them of the culture and natural resources.

Nodin

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

..... are generally the protestant anglo-Irish who have no problem invading other country's and raping them of the culture and natural resources.

Nonsense.

Scofflaw

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

To answer the OP's question, I think its got to do with the fact we can sympathize with the Palestinian people who have been invaded and treated like dirt. Those on the pro-Israeli side are generally the protestant anglo-Irish who have no problem invading other country's and raping them of the culture and natural resources.

And that kind of smear isn't acceptable either, for exactly the same reasons that trying to pretend everyone who is pro-Palestinian is a supporter of terrorism isn't acceptable.

moderately,
Scofflaw

irishh_bob

karma_ wrote: »

The reason that Loyalists fly an Israeli flag is purely reactionary. It started after Republicans began flying Palestinian flags.

yep , thats pretty much it , although both sides are often equally shallow and reactionary in relation to the mid east conflict

irishh_bob

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I must admit thinking the same thing as the OP

I can see why individual incidents have such resonance but I am slightly confused by the sheer energy that has gone into this particular flottila scenario.

I know fairly little about the whole Israel/Palestine history. From trying to educate myself on the subject, I see incredible brutality on both sides, and yet at varying points, I've been called anti-Semitic and Islamophobic for my frustration with both sides.
Immediately after the flotilla incident, I had friends arguing for both Israel and the activists. Neither side would admit that both sides fecked up here. Something about the conflict seems to foster incredibly black and white viewpoints and where any fence-sitting is seen as dangerous equivocation.
The entire situation is extremely annoying; either Israel or Palestine could enact the most heinous crimes tomorrow morning, and I can guarantee you I could easily find friends who would rationalise the action.

In this scenario, I feel Israel was far more at fault but the flotilla was not blameless in it's provocation.

would you say the civil rights marchers were not blameless on bloody sunday 1972 , were the paratroopers provoked , i mean , at least the paratroopers were ( techincally ) on thier own soil when they moved in , i think your on very shaky ground in your arguements quite frankly

irishh_bob

Camelot wrote: »

Well thats that then . . .

I support Israel in her struggle with Hamas.

but do you support her jailing of an entire people , if i wanted to bring baked goods to someone in mountjoy prison , the prison guards there would inspect or perhaps take the goods off me , israel does the very same thing with baked goods destined for the pallestinians

aDeener

Nodin wrote: »

Nonsense.

but the general jist of what he is saying is true in that those of a unionist persuasion here are more likely to be pro-israel - the reasons and connections i dont need to go into as you are well informed. the way it was worded was nonsense, i agree. one does not have to be of protestant anglo irish stock to support a particular side

BlaasForRafa

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I note the mods have reacted to your post, but I cannot allow what I see as a slur go unchallenged: the Sinn Féin sympathisers here would not consider me to be one of their number. But I don't deny that there was a plantation in Ulster, and that involved dispossessing those who previously held the land.

Using a slur like "planter" is out of order imo and you deserved to be called on it, I should have reported your post instead of replying.

junder

irishh_bob wrote: »

yep , thats pretty much it , although both sides are often equally shallow and reactionary in relation to the mid east conflict

Wrong again

karma_

junder wrote: »

Wrong again

So then tell us, why do they fly the flag?

Eliot Rosewater

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Using a slur like "planter"...

I don't see how the word "planter" is a slur. P. Breathnach was using it, correctly, to describe those people whole were involved in the plantation of Ulster as settlers. As far as I can see the comparison is fair: one of principle objections to Israel is its continued policy of settling, or "planting", land it doesn't own.

Clawdeeus

Does anyone know if the Arab-Israeli conflict resonates in the same way with any other western nations? I know that during the 60's in the US there was big interest; with "plucky little Israel" surrounded by enemies. But I definitly get the feeling that it flies under the radar now in alot of countries, probablly has something to do with its length.

junder

karma_ wrote: »

So then tell us, why do they fly the flag?

Read back on some of the posts the subject has already been touched on

karma_

junder wrote: »

Read back on some of the posts the subject has already been touched on

It is reactionary, nothing more. In fact, I'll quote the NI Jewish communities response to the whole incident. In Bold explains why they came to be flown.

Over the past few weeks and months much has been written about the Israeli and Palestinian flags now flying all over Belfast.

This is a recent phenomenon, and one which greatly concerns myself - as a member of the Jewish community in Belfast - and others.

Far from indicating any sympathy with Israel, the Israeli flag has simply been erected by loyalists in response to republicans erecting the Palestinian flag. This newly-discovered sympathy is in direct contrast to loyalist paramilitary attitudes towards Jewish people in the past.

I would like to put on the record that many people in the Jewish community in Belfast would much rather that loyalists did not appropriate symbolism in this way. As a member of the Alliance Party, I do not share the narrow political outlook of loyalism, and in particular, of the unionist terrorists who drape the Israeli flag from lampposts.

In other words, the vast majority of members of the Jewish community have absolutely no problems with their nationalist or republican neighbours, and do not want to be associated with those who have hijacked the Israeli flag.

While it may have provided some amusement at the start, the Jewish community here is aware of the links between certain loyalist terrorist groups and far right organisations, such as the BNP and National Front, over the years. These groups are anti-Semitic, and for the UDA or whoever to suddenly appear to be in sympathy with Israel is sickening hypocrisy.

I believe that some members of the Palestinian community here are concerned that the association of their flag with republicanism could in fact present a danger to them, should loyalist paramilitaries decide to add to their list of targets. Likewise, members of the Jewish community have no desire to be republican targets.

If there is any lesson from Israel for loyalist paramilitaries who are flying our flag, it is that the vast majority of Jewish people all over the world want to see an end to all forms of terrorism. And that includes an end to the current loyalist campaign of intimidation and attacks on my fellow Alliance Party members.

ENDS.

taken from:http://www.allianceparty.org/news/001149/israeli_flags_not_welcomed_by_jewish_community.html

fontanalis

Can someone tell me how much/little of Israels policy is biblical (god give us the land) or is it based on paranoia/fear of another holocaust?