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Moving Alarm Panel

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  • 03-06-2010 2:32pm
    #1
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭


    Hey guys,

    Im getting a new cylinder and need to move the panel in the hot press.
    What sort of price should I be expecting to pay for this? The wires are not long enough to simply move the box itself, so there will be electrical/alarm work required. (otherwise Id do it myself)

    Cheers!


«134567

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    #2
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    It really depends on the time involved. Where are you planning to move it to?


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    #3
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    koolkid wrote: »
    It really depends on the time involved. Where are you planning to move it to?

    Sorry I should have given more info, it just needs to move about 2 feet up the wall.
    Its at about 4foot now and I need it at 6 to allow for the larger cylinder.

    Cheers!


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    #4
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Easy enough. Possibly 2 hours if cables need joining . I'd say around €150 .


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    #5
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Hmm more than I expected to be honest, you reckon I'd need an alarm company or any sparks?
    Arent alarms "regulated" now?


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    #6
    indie armada
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭indie armada


    is it not against the regs to have it in the hot press? or is it ok to leave it there because it was installed prior to the regs comming into force.


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    #7
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer. If the system has not been serviced in over a year its not going to be up to the standard anyway.
    @Greebo All alarm company's must be licenced by the PSA . You are legally obliged to employ a PSA licenced company. How much were you expecting for a couple of hours work?


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    #8
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    koolkid wrote: »
    Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer. If the system has not been serviced in over a year its not going to be up to the standard anyway.
    @Greebo All alarm company's must be licenced by the PSA . You are legally obliged to employ a PSA licenced company. How much were you expecting for a couple of hours work?

    The alarm is about 3 years old. I didnt think it would take more than an hour to be honest, there are only 4 cables that need to be lengthened, everything else comes from above anyway so has plenty of slack.

    I will give the original installers a ring and see what they say!

    Out of interest, is the attic a suitable new location?


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    #9
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    GreeBo wrote: »
    The alarm is about 3 years old. I didnt think it would take more than an hour to be honest, there are only 4 cables that need to be lengthened, everything else comes from above anyway so has plenty of slack.

    I will give the original installers a ring and see what they say!

    Out of interest, is the attic a suitable new location?
    i would allow 2 hours for this. Remember everything has to be disconnected & marked, joins done as required, panel remounted , rewired & tested. If I were pricing I would agree 2 hours & discount if less.


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    #10
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    GreeBo wrote: »
    it just needs to move about 2 feet up the wall.
    Its at about 4foot now and I need it at 6 to allow for the larger cylinder.

    Cheers!

    If it is only being moved 2 foot it would take less than an hour to do, but you should be looking at moving it out of the hot press.

    www.altor.ie



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    #11
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    indie armada wrote: »
    is it not against the regs to have it in the hot press? or is it ok to leave it there because it was installed prior to the regs comming into force.

    It is against the regulations to have it in the hot press but if installed before this it is ok.

    www.altor.ie



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    #12
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer.

    To my knowledge if it is to be upgraded it has to be moved out of the hot press as it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press ?

    www.altor.ie



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    #13
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    altor wrote: »
    To my knowledge if it is to be upgraded it has to be moved out of the hot press as it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press ?


    Had one on my last inspections. It was signed off as requested by the customer, as they did not want additions wiring/works etc.
    It was accepted & passed with no non-conformance.


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    #14
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    To my knowledge if it is to be upgraded it has to be moved out of the hot press as it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press ?

    Correct. If the alarm panel is moved out of the hotpress then it should be supplied from a spur outlet that is local to it and not the one that is in the hotpress.


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    #15
    indie armada
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭indie armada


    also if fitted in the attic it is technically outside of the protected zone so a dual tech fitted in the attic is an option but a better option would be to move it out onto ne of the bedroom walls or onto the landing. alternitivly if there is a closet below the hotpress the extend the cables down and fit the panel there


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    #16
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    Have done this type of job a few times, quickest was an hour but usually takes two. Again no need to move out of hot-press.
    Greebo, it's totally up to you who does the work but your average sparks would be out of his depth here


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    #17
    Tim M-U
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Tim M-U


    Jnealon wrote: »
    Have done this type of job a few times, quickest was an hour but usually takes two. Again no need to move out of hot-press.
    Greebo, it's totally up to you who does the work but your average sparks would be out of his depth here
    Hi jnealon,

    If you have previously installed an alarm yourself (diy jobby) would it be possible for an licensed installer to do a job?, e.g. outdoor sabb even though it is not originally certified since it was a diy.
    Can it be signed off or something? what are the steps to this?


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    #18
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Had one on my last inspections. It was signed off as requested by the customer, as they did not want additions wiring/works etc.
    It was accepted & passed with no non-conformance.

    I dont know how it passed as the standards clearly say the alarm must comply with EN50131 to be certified. Upgrading the alarm and leaving it in the hot press is against the ETCI regulations which installers have to comply to.

    www.altor.ie



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    #19
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Who am I to say the NSAI might be wrong? :rolleyes:


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    #20
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    Tim M-U wrote: »
    Hi jnealon,

    If you have previously installed an alarm yourself (diy jobby) would it be possible for an licensed installer to do a job?, e.g. outdoor sabb even though it is not originally certified since it was a diy.
    Can it be signed off or something? what are the steps to this?
    Yes a licensed company could take over your system and bring it up to standard


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    #21
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Just rang the orignal installers and he quoted €80 call out charge including the first hour or work, so looks like €150 was pretty close to the mark.

    No mention of having to move the panel from the HP either.

    Thx.


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    #22
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Who am I to say the NSAI might be wrong? :rolleyes:

    Your the installation company :rolleyes:

    www.altor.ie



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    #23
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Just rang the orignal installers and he quoted €80 call out charge including the first hour or work, so looks like €150 was pretty close to the mark.

    No mention of having to move the panel from the HP either.

    Thx.

    To move the panel 2 foot would take less than an hour. If he was moving the alarm out of the hot press it would take him 2 hours.

    It is a fire hazard having it in the hot press, dry area. The standards for EN50131 plus the ETCI regulations say it should not be in there.

    www.altor.ie



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    #24
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    altor wrote: »
    It is a fire hazard having it in the hot press, dry area. The standards for EN50131 plus the ETCI regulations say it should not be in there.
    Out of interest why is the hot press any more of a firehazard than a bedroom?


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    #25
    indie armada
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭indie armada


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Out of interest why is the hot press any more of a firehazard than a bedroom?


    a lot more kindling in the form of clothes/towels ect. usually stock up against the panel might cause it to overheat especially if the immersion is on........i would imagine this is the reason anyway.


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    #26
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Out of interest why is the hot press any more of a firehazard than a bedroom?

    It is classed as a dry area at risk of fire. 2011 might be able to add something in with regard the electrical safety concerns from the ETCI.

    My advice is if your getting it moved 2 foot for €80 - €150 get the installer to move it out of the hot press.

    www.altor.ie



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    #27
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    altor wrote: »
    It is classed as a dry area at risk of fire. 2011 might be able to add something in with regard the electrical safety concerns from the ETCI.

    My advice is if your getting it moved 2 foot for €80 - €150 get the installer to move it out of the hot press.

    Thx.

    Other than the attic (where there is already a junction box) there is no where else thats suitable/available Im afraid.


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    #28
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    TBH this is a big fuss over nothing. In reality the hot press is fine. Mine is in a hot press & there is no way I'm putting in the landing or on a bedroom wall for no good reason. Use the lowest possible fuse rating for the mains & the power supply if you are really concerned. In all my years in the business I have not come across a single incident of an alarm panel starting a fire in a hot press. I have , however seen junctions on an immersion burnt out. Maybe we should move them out of the hot press.:rolleyes:
    I don't want to get away from the OPs questions & into the rights & wrongs of the standards. We've done all that before. If I have a system passed by NSAI or any other certification body then thats good enough for me. It also tells me its a very low priority for them also/


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    #29
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Electrical apparatus is designed to operate under certain conditions. Installing something such as an alarm panel in a hot press has several disadvantages such as:



    1) *****High ambient temperature - Possible fire hazard

    2) *****The possibility of clothing surrounding the panel further increasing the possibility of the panel overheating. -Possible fire hazard

    3) *****Generally alarm panels would have a very low IP rating (if any). The hot press can become quite humid due to wet clothing drying.

    4) *****From a servicing point of view most hot presses would make it quite difficult to be able to work on the panel properly. I am sure that there are exceptions to this. However it is interesting to note that the ETCI now insist that distribution boards are to be installed in a more accessible manner.



    Personally I have seen an alarm panel that went on fire in a hot press, so I would not install one there myself and I would suggest to people that have them there to remove them. The ETCI did not come up with that rule just to be difficult, it was as result of lessons learnt.


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    #30
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    As I said I do not want to go off topic & turn this thread into an argument re the standards.
    I 'll quickly address your points & then end off.
    Ill happily discuss further in a seperate thread if anyone want to,
    2011 wrote: »
    1) *****High ambient temperature - Possible fire hazard

    Sheds, cabins & garages & conservatories would have much higher temp in warm weather, not to mention utility rooms with a dryer and more on the go.
    2011 wrote: »
    2) *****The possibility of clothing surrounding the panel further increasing the possibility of the panel overheating. -Possible fire hazard
    I have also seen this in other areas like with coats under stairs etc.
    2011 wrote: »
    3) *****Generally alarm panels would have a very low IP rating (if any). The hot press can become quite humid due to wet clothing drying.
    As above
    2011 wrote: »
    4) *****From a servicing point of view most hot presses would make it quite difficult to be able to work on the panel properly. I am sure that there are exceptions to this. However it is interesting to note that the ETCI now insist that distribution boards are to be installed in a more accessible manner.
    With a few arkward exceptions I find hot press very accessible & at easy height.
    2011 wrote: »
    The ETCI did not come up with that rule just to be difficult, it was as result of lessons learnt.

    There are plenty of standards that make little or no sense. One example would be why a telecom fault is not allowed generate an alarm, There are loads of silly issues like that. If you want you can look at most application & find some obscure possibility that may , in extreem cases be dangerous.
    But like I said thats for another thread.
    Maybe after a bad day I'll start one with a long list.:D


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    #31
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    2011 wrote: »
    Electrical apparatus is designed to operate under certain conditions. Installing something such as an alarm panel in a hot press has several disadvantages such as:



    1) *****High ambient temperature - Possible fire hazard

    2) *****The possibility of clothing surrounding the panel further increasing the possibility of the panel overheating. -Possible fire hazard

    3) *****Generally alarm panels would have a very low IP rating (if any). The hot press can become quite humid due to wet clothing drying.

    4) *****From a servicing point of view most hot presses would make it quite difficult to be able to work on the panel properly. I am sure that there are exceptions to this. However it is interesting to note that the ETCI now insist that distribution boards are to be installed in a more accessible manner.



    Personally I have seen an alarm panel that went on fire in a hot press, so I would not install one there myself and I would suggest to people that have them there to remove them. The ETCI did not come up with that rule just to be difficult, it was as result of lessons learnt.

    Thanks 2011..

    I was on to the NSAI today and they confirmed that if the alarm is to be upgraded then it needs to be moved out of the hot press as per the EN50131 standard for alarms plus ETCI regulations.

    www.altor.ie



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