Moving Alarm Panel

KoolKid

2011,Altor.. Can we get back to the OPs original request? Which was for a quote to move the panel up 2 ft.. I am not disputing it is the standard. It is! Ofcourse the NSAI are going to confirm that.
It can still be signed off at the customers request. I have done this, so either accept it can be done or call me a liar.
After all the customer can decide after a year not to have thier alarm serviced, in which case the system is no longer up to the standard either. The OP was asking about an electricain doing the job as well. The system would not be up to standard then either. To say its dangerous is an overstatement IMO. Remember at the end on the day this forum is about us , who know, helping others here to either do things themselves or how to get things done. A panel in the hot press is no more dangerous than us advising someone to change a battery themselves or go up a ladder to a bell box or maybe to change a bulb in a halogen lamp.
You could argue all of these could be fatal in the extreem. If there was a standard issued that a home owner could not do DIY because it may be dangerous, what do you think would happen?
To summerise this.. The OP needs to move his panel up the wall & wanted a quote for same. I rekoned 2 hours , you rekoned one & we quoted accordingly. The issue of panels in the hotpress was pointed out to the OP. His reply was

there is no where else thats suitable/available Im afraid.

On that basis I advise the options accordingly. I am not going to ram unnecessary work down his (or any other customers) throat.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

I am not disputing it is the standard. It is!

Yes it is the standard but why cut corners for the sake of moving the panel.

koolkid wrote: »

I am not going to ram unnecessary work down his (or any other customers) throat.

Neither am i but if he is going to pay some installer "not me" to move his panel why not get it moved to a proper location away from any danger and brought up to the EN50131 standard ? I am sure the engineer would have no problem rerouting the cables to an agreed location.

KoolKid

It s not a case of cutting corners. I thought you knew me better than that.
The OP was clearly looking for the best price and also stated he had no other place he wanted it moved to.

meercat

lads the current electrical regulations state
555.6.1
electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboard only allow
an immersion heater and its associated wiring but excluding switches
auxiliary equipment associated with water heating systems

a switching device controlling an immersion heater shall not be located inside an airing cupboard555.6.2

i think altor has a point.if you are going to move it you may as well do it to the regs.i also dont think the client should decide if he should ignore the regulations either.these were introduced to prevent fires in the hotpress.

KoolKid

But my point is the customer can. If that were not the case I would be getting a lot more money for upgrading systems. However my policy would be, if it's allowed, to give the customer the options and let them decide.

meercat

thanks koolkid but the customer cant decide.if you cant do the job to current regulations walk away .its not worth the hassle.if a problem arises later he can come back at you through the courts.he could say he didnt realise the consequences.im not getting at you here,im just pointing out the electrical regs for reference.cheers

altor

meercat wrote: »

lads the current electrical regulations state
555.6.1
electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboard only allow
an immersion heater and its associated wiring but excluding switches
auxiliary equipment associated with water heating systems

a switching device controlling an immersion heater shall not be located inside an airing cupboard555.6.2

i think altor has a point.if you are going to move it you may as well do it to the regs.i also dont think the client should decide if he should ignore the regulations either.these were introduced to prevent fires in the hotpress.

Thanks meercat,

The regulations are there for a reason. If moving the panel out of the hot press to the attic is the only other option then installing it there is the thing to do. I know its outside the protected area but a pir installed will cover this issue.

altor

meercat wrote: »

thanks koolkid but the customer cant decide.if you cant do the job to current regulations walk away .its not worth the hassle.if a problem arises later he can come back at you through the courts.he could say he didnt realise the consequences.im not getting at you here,im just pointing out the electrical regs for reference.cheers

Thats what was said to me today by the NSAI.

KoolKid

As I have said I have had jobs like this inspected and passed by the NSAI. It Is allowed. If it wasn't I wouldn't give it as an option.

2011

Koolkid:
I am not saying that you are right or wrong. Altor asked what the regulations are. I said what they are and I gave my opinion as to why the ETCI have that regulation. The regulation is a fact.

If the regulation is a stupid one or not is a very different arguement and we are all entilted to an opinion on that.

In my opinion the regulation is a good one because I have seen an alarm panel that went on fire which was installed in a hot press. The funny thing is the panel was in the home of an alarm installer (before this reg came in). I can PM you his name if you like (well known in the trade).

I agree that Koolkid makes some fair points.

fred funk }{

I recently had a job inspected where the panel was in the hotpress. It was an upgrade and the customer under no circumstances wanted her house rewired in order to relocate her panel.

I rang EQA , who are my certifying body, at the time of the install and they told me that if the customer signs that they are fully aware of the implications of the panel remaining in the hotpress that it can stay there.

When the inspector was out he noted the note on the 'as fitted document' and passed it.

When possible I move the panel to a better location, normally the attic which is the handiest.

2011

Fred I accept your point 100%. I am only stating the ETCI regultion.

altor

The standards read clear to me for the alarm to be certified the panel must be moved out of the hot press. I have as an installer come across this alot over the years and when explained to the customer the risks involved with having the alarm in the hot press they are more than happy for me to move it. If the alarm panel is not being moved it should not be certified as a EN50131 certified alarm, regardless of the inspector signing it off. I am sure the customers insurance company would have a problem with this if the customer is claiming to have a EN50131 alarm installed. There is also implications with regard the ETCI regulations as has being pointed out.

KoolKid

The single point I am making is that it can be done and I have done it. WRT Insurance a claims are being refused for systems not being serviced. Far more people would be affected by this.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

The single point I am making is that it can be done and I have done it.

Point taken but whats the point having standards if the alarm is not installed to them

If an alarm is to be certified to the EN50131 standard i would at lease expect the alarm to be but in reality its not

Makes no sense to me to be honest

KoolKid

Like I said there are lots in the standards that make no sense to me, but thats for another discussion.
Again my point is why would the OP goto the trouble of moving the panel to somewhere he doesn't want it for it to be up to standard for 1 year. Going by the reaction to the quote it doesnt seem he is going to be paying to get it serviced every year. Ofcourse install to the standard thats what they are there for. But sometimes common sense must prevail. Say for examply you service a system for an elderly person who can no longer get about they way they used to. They need the entry/exit time extended to ,say 120 seconds. The standards say that is not allowed. For argument sake moving the keypad is a big job .The customer does not want wiring work carried out to move a keypad etc. Would you just increase the entry exit time? or insist the work must be done?
Now without mentioning names , our inspector is the most black & white person I know, but he is even willing to accept changes like the hot press.

fred funk }{

I've discussed things like the entry/exit time and the armed display with the inspector. He told me that common sense prevails in some circumstances eg. an elderly person or a disabled person would need more time to get in/out of the house.
He also agreed that in some circumstances the armed display can be used as some end users find it difficult to do even the most basic tasks on the keypad and get confused not knowing if the alarm is set or not.

Same as above regarding quick sets, they're OK in some circumstances.

altor

They are there for a reason, especially the ETCI regulations.

He was more so shocked at the price of moving the panel up 2 foot. Even if he does not get the alarm serviced the next year should not be the point, the alarm should be installed to the standard your claiming it to be.

Moving a keypad and moving a panel out of a hot press for fire safety concerns are totally different situations. If the elderly person was in that situation they could always get a keyfob added on to there alarm, plus if the alarm is being upgraded in a elderly persons hot press i hope your installing plenty of smoke detectors just in case.

The inspector i deal with in the NSAI told me there is no way it can be done, i argued the same point you gave but he still said the no. I am not saying you are a liar, that is what he told me.

KoolKid

We are really going round in circles here.. Which is why I didn't want this to become a discussion about the standards & thier faults.

I think boards works best when we address what the original posters ask .
My replys in different threads would be based on those requests first.
With that in mind I quoted accordingly & based purly on what he said here. I would allow 2 hours your rekoned an hour. Hard to say for sure without physically looking at the job. Likewise it would be impossible to estimate that the panel could be moved elsewhere for the same cost .
The OP also stated there was nowhere else he wanted it. With that in mind I pointed out his options allowing for the panel to be still certified if required. Not withstanding the fact that there may be other work required to bring the system up to standard . That could mean 2 hour, 3 hours or more.

altor

There is no need to tell me how boards work

The op asked a question and you gave him a reply. No one is questioning that.
I am entitled to my opinion also.

With regards my reply i simply gave him facts of the regulations that govern alarms. Two other electricians gave there view also with regard the regulation of the ETCI.

koolkid wrote: »

The OP also stated there was nowhere else he wanted it. .

In fact the op stated

GreeBo wrote: »

Other than the attic (where there is already a junction box) there is no where else thats suitable/available Im afraid.

The attic is the best option for him plus when he is moving the panel 2 foot i said he may as well have it moved out of the hot press.

Another thing to note is

koolkid wrote: »

But my point is the customer can. If that were not the case I would be getting a lot more money for upgrading systems. However my policy would be, if it's allowed, to give the customer the options and let them decide.

You where told

meercat wrote: »

thanks koolkid but the customer cant decide.if you cant do the job to current regulations walk away .its not worth the hassle.if a problem arises later he can come back at you through the courts.he could say he didnt realise the consequences.im not getting at you here,im just pointing out the electrical regs for reference.cheers

Yes it would cost more to move the panel buts it alot easier to change the panel over where it is, thats cutting corners to me. As i have said if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away. Getting a customer to sign to say they understand that it should not be left there is in my eyes not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard. If that is what you do, thats your business. I am not here to tell you how it should be done.

There are the regulations for the electrician which we have to adhere to also. In fact boards is all about sharing information but safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

The op asked a question and you gave him a reply. No one is questioning that.
I am entitled to my opinion also.

No one is questioning that either.

altor wrote: »

With regards my reply i simply gave him facts of the regulations that govern alarms. Two other electricians gave there view also with regard the regulation of the ETCI.

And 2 installers gave thier view with regard to NSAI & EQA's position on this

altor wrote: »

The attic is the best option for him plus when he is moving the panel 2 foot i said he may as well have it moved out of the hot press.

Again I was basing my replys on what the OP wanted. The attic would be more expenive also as some form of detection would need to be fitted.

altor wrote: »

Yes it would cost more to move the panel buts it alot easier to change the panel over where it is, thats cutting corners to me. As i have said if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away. Getting a customer to sign to say they understand that it should not be left there is in my eyes not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard.

I agree , but you seem to be under the impression I am attacking your views or your work practices. I am doing neither. I am simply pointing out that the Both EQA & NSAI would say the system can be certified to the standard with the customers consent. Now I am not trying to say whether thats right or wrong, I am simply stating that its allowed.

altor wrote: »

There are the regulations for the electrician which we have to adhere to also. In fact boards is all about sharing information but safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.

Again here it seems you feel I am being critical of your work practice, I am not. I agree 100% safety comes first. But you can not force extra work on a customer with every call you do. If you call out to change a battery would you refuse to do it if theyy dont agree to the extra work of moving the panel out of the hotpress? There is a safety risk in advising people on almost any form of DIY. What if you advise someone to get something in an attic, they could fall through the ceiling. I'm sure if we take it to the extreme we could find a hell of a lot of dangerous posts in the DIY section.
To reiterate, I am answering in relation to the OPs question. If he posts back looking for panel moved & brought up to standard I will quote & advise accordingly. Likewise if someone posts for changing a battery I am not going to harp on & on about the panel being in the hot press.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

And 2 installers gave thier view with regard to NSAI & EQA's position on this

I am NSAI certified so cant comment on the EQA.

koolkid wrote: »

Again I was basing my replys on what the OP wanted. The attic would be more expenive also as some form of detection would need to be fitted.

Ok so when the op asked

GreeBo wrote: »

Out of interest, is the attic a suitable new location?

You replied ? ? ?

koolkid wrote: »

I agree , but you seem to be under the impression I am attacking your views or your work practices. I am doing neither. I am simply pointing out that the Both EQA & NSAI would say the system can be certified to the standard with the customers consent. Now I am not trying to say whether thats right or wrong, I am simply stating that its allowed.

I would not say you are either. To be honest answer this for me. If you certify an alarm to be EN50131 standard and as you say yourself

koolkid wrote: »

I am not disputing it is the standard. It is!

How can the alarm be certified to EN50131 if you know it is not allowed be in the hot press ?

koolkid wrote: »

Again here it seems you feel I am being critical of your work practice, I am not. I agree 100% safety comes first. But you can not force extra work on a customer with every call you do. If you call out to change a battery would you refuse to do it if theyy dont agree to the extra work of moving the panel out of the hotpress? There is a safety risk in advising people on almost any form of DIY. What if you advise someone to get something in an attic, they could fall through the ceiling. I'm sure if we take it to the extreme we could find a hell of a lot of dangerous posts in the DIY section.
To reiterate, I am answering in relation to the OPs question. If he posts back looking for panel moved & brought up to standard I will quote & advise accordingly. Likewise if someone posts for changing a battery I am not going to harp on & on about the panel being in the hot press.

[/QUOTE]

Again, i cant say you could be critical of my work practice as every alarm i install is installed to the EN50131 standard. I am not criticizing your work either thats why i said

altor wrote: »

If that is what you do, thats your business. I am not here to tell you how it should be done.

With regard old panel that are already installed, i stated

altor wrote: »

It is against the regulations to have it in the hot press but if installed before this it is ok.

So if someone has a faulty battery in there alarm and its in the hot press it can be changed with out moving the panel.

KoolKid

Really going nowhere with this are we?
Are you arguing with me because this can be done and the system still be certified?
I am just pointing out the position of the NSAI and Fred funk clarified the position of EQA.
If you feel this is wrong then you are arguing with the wrong person.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Really going nowhere with this are we?
Are you arguing with me because this can be done and the system still be certified?
I am just pointing out the position of the NSAI and Fred funk clarified the position of EQA.
If you feel this is wrong then you are arguing with the wrong person.

I am not arguing with you, i just asked you to clarify a few things from your posts but you wont so that is that.

The inspector i deal with in the NSAI told me there is no way it can be done, i argued the same point you gave but he still said no.

KoolKid

Sorry Altor. I am posting from a mobile at the moment so I can't easily quote, copy paste etc. I'll look back later or tomorrow and clarify anything you want. If you want to list anything you want answered Ill address them now.
It would seem inconsistencies within the NSAI is the problem. I can't answer any further on that except to repeat my experience.

KoolKid

Altor,Just looking back over the points you made. If I miss anything please let me know.
WRT the OP asking about the attic.. I missed that.
My advice would be yes it would be a good move & an easy one. However there would be an additional cost of adding protection into the attic. Ideally a duel tec PiR at around €60- €70

altor wrote: »

The attic is the best option for him plus when he is moving the panel 2 foot i said he may as well have it moved out of the hot press.

As above the attic would be a good move providing the OP was willing to incur the extra costs involved. I got the impression from his posts that cost was an issue.

altor wrote: »

if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away.

Yet further down you say

altor wrote: »

It is against the regulations to have it in the hot press but if installed before this it is ok.

altor wrote: »

Getting a customer to sign to say they understand that it should not be left there is in my eyes not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard.

In my experience the NSAI disagree.

altor wrote: »

There are the regulations for the electrician which we have to adhere to also. In fact boards is all about sharing information but safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.

But is an alarm thats already installed not the same risk??

altor wrote: »

I am NSAI certified so cant comment on the EQA.

Me meither. But I will take fred funks word on this.

altor wrote: »

How can the alarm be certified to EN50131 if you know it is not allowed be in the hot press ?

The NSAI inspector stated this to me. If the NSAI say its ok then I believe them . They are the certification body after all.

altor wrote: »

So if someone has a faulty battery in there alarm and its in the hot press it can be changed with out moving the panel.

Why is this not a danger & a fire hazard while the OPs panel is??

Please understand I am not saying the NSAI or EQA are right or wrong here. I am simply stating whats allowed. There are many Inconsistencies in the standards & the implementation of them. I have highlighted just a few.
Altor,I hope I have covered all the points you brought up, If so lets put this to rest. If not please ask & I will answer as best I can.

Colm

altor

koolkid wrote: »

As above the attic would be a good move providing the OP was willing to incur the extra costs involved. I got the impression from his posts that cost was an issue.

At lease we agree on something. With out giving all the facts to the op (which is what i did) how would he know whats best for him and his home..

koolkid wrote: »

Yet further down you say

altor wrote: »

It is against the regulations to have it in the hot press but if installed before this it is ok.

Yes it was ok to have them installed in the hot press before the regulations came in that they are not allowed in there. Whats wrong with that ?

koolkid wrote: »

In my experience the NSAI disagree.

Two wrongs dont make a right Colm. As meercat said

meercat wrote: »

these were introduced to prevent fires in the hotpress.

koolkid wrote: »

But is an alarm thats already installed not the same risk??

I see your coming around to the way i am thinking Yes i believe they are, thats why i said to the op

altor wrote: »

My advice is if your getting it moved 2 foot for €80 - €150 get the installer to move it out of the hot press.

koolkid wrote: »

The NSAI inspector stated this to me. If the NSAI say its ok then I believe them . They are the certification body after all.

Again Colm two wrongs dont make a right. We both have conflicting advise from the NSAI but i will get on to them on Tuesday to try clear this up. If it is in the standards then it should not be upgraded back into the hot press.

koolkid wrote: »

Why is this not a danger & a fire hazard while the OPs panel is??

It is a fire hazard having the panel installed in the hot press. Changing the battery is not an issue to me as i am a qualified alarm engineer with plenty of experience, same as your good self i am sure.

koolkid wrote: »

Please understand I am not saying the NSAI or EQA are right or wrong here. I am simply stating whats allowed. There are many Inconsistencies in the standards & the implementation of them. I have highlighted just a few.
Altor,I hope I have covered all the points you brought up, If so lets put this to rest. If not please ask & I will answer as best I can.

Colm

I am saying they are wrong if they allow you to upgrade the alarm that way. It is quite clear reading the standard that we are not allowed install a alarm in a hot press plus it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press. These rules are there for a reason, not because some one had nothing else to do but for the safety of everyone.

KoolKid

I am just confused on one point Altor. If you are called to a job where the control panel IA located in the hotpress will you carry out any remedial work without moving the panel?

meercat

Hi lads
interesting debate
just to clarify the subject
do the regs allow the alarm panel to be resituated in the hot press?
Etci definitively say no
what do nsai say?

KoolKid

NSAI say yes to me but no to Altor???
EQA say yes to fred funk.