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Moving Alarm Panel

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    #62
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    NSAI say yes to me but no to Altor???
    EQA say yes to fred funk.
    That means nothing. The NSAI has to obey ETCI regulations. From the ETCI website:

    "ETCI is the Irish Member of the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) and the European Committee for Electro-Technical Standardisation (CENELEC) and, as such, contributes towards the formulation of international standards which are subsequently published by NSAI as Irish Standards."

    In other words the ETCI first writes rules and standards that are then at a later stage used by the NSAI. The NSAI can't go off do their own thing and allow equipment to be installed in a way that is not permitted by the ETCI.

    The alarm panel has a mains voltage supply, if it was only 12 VDC it would be a different story. Mains voltage equipment should only be installed by trained and competent personel. That same training should teach people not to break ETCI rules.

    Am I the only one here that has seen an alarm panel that has gone on fire ?

    The fact that a customer is happy with it is irrelevent. Normaly the customer is ineperienced, unqualified and untrained in this area. Therefore their technical understanding in very limited. If the panel was to go on fire it would not stand up in court.

    I know people that would not care if they had no MCBs or RCDs or fuses in their house. They would sign that they did not want them if it would save them a few quid. That does not mean that it is OK to do this!


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    #63
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    2011 you are right. But it the NSAI ,EQA & the others that are charged with inspecting & ensuring the installers comply. As I siad there are lots of inconsistincies in the standards.
    You have just give me an interesting idea there.
    If the mains PSU is taken out of the panel , located elsewhere in an OBO box & the low voltage AC wired on alarm cable to the panel , that would be acceptable wouldn't it?


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    #64
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    I am just confused on one point Altor. If you are called to a job where the control panel IA located in the hotpress will you carry out any remedial work without moving the panel?

    If it requires a battery change. I am not certifying the alarm in the hot press and did not install it there.

    If the alarm panel in the hot press needs to be replaced or some one is looking to upgrade the alarm then it will need to be removed from the hot press to conform to the EN50131 standard.

    www.altor.ie



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    #65
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    meercat wrote: »
    Hi lads
    interesting debate
    just to clarify the subject
    do the regs allow the alarm panel to be resituated in the hot press?
    Etci definitively say no
    what do nsai say?

    As far as i am concerned it does not but there seems to be conflicting advise here re the proper practice that should be carried out when upgrading an alarm system in a hot press. I dont do this myself, but it seems other companys have being told different by there respective certifiers. Thats there decision to follow what they have being told.

    As far as i am concerned the NSAI told me there is no way it can be upgraded back into the hot press. I will be on to them in the morning again to try clear this up as you and 2011 also say the ETCI say no also (confirming what i was told) and at the end of the day there rules come first.

    www.altor.ie



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    #66
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    2011 wrote: »
    That means nothing. The NSAI has to obey ETCI regulations.

    Correct, its there way or no way. The regulations are there for a reason and must be obeyed.
    2011 wrote: »
    The fact that a customer is happy with it is irrelevent. Normaly the customer is ineperienced, unqualified and untrained in this area. Therefore their technical understanding in very limited. If the panel was to go on fire it would not stand up in court.

    I know people that would not care if they had no MCBs or RCDs or fuses in their house. They would sign that they did not want them if it would save them a few quid. That does not mean that it is OK to do this!

    I agree, how is a elderly person to know all the risks unless they are trained in this area. The installation company are the ones that will end up in court if there was a fire. Its them who should be installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard.

    www.altor.ie



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    #67
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    altor wrote: »
    If it requires a battery change. I am not certifying the alarm in the hot press and did not install it there.
    So you would change the battery & leave the panel where it is?
    Earlier you said
    altor wrote: »
    As i have said if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away.
    You also said
    altor wrote: »
    safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.
    Is the panel you are not certifying not the same fire hazard as any other one?
    Maybe I am reading this wrong. If so please clafify.


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    #68
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Is the panel you are not certifying not the same fire hazard as any other one?
    Maybe I am reading this wrong. If so please clafify.

    Yes, you are reading it wrong. I am not disputing the panel is a fire hazard, i have never claimed that. I would not as i stated upgrade a panel back into a hot press. I either move it or walk away.
    altor wrote: »
    As i have said if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away. Getting a customer to sign to say they understand that it should not be left there is in my eyes not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard.

    I think your confusing upgrading "bringing the alarm up to the EN50131 standard" with replacing a faulty battery.

    www.altor.ie



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    #69
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    But if you replace the battery & leave the panel as is arn't you leaving a potential fire hazard behind?
    Not trying to be smart here Altor, just trying to figure out what should be allowed & what shouldn't .
    Take a different analogy for a moment. Suppose you are an electrician called to fit a socket. In the process you find faulty wiring that is a potential fire hazard. You notify the customer , but they don't want the extra expense of rewiring or repairing. In that instance is it also ok to walk away saying I did not install it.
    Just trying to explore where , and with who responsibility starts & ends.
    If safety, as you say, comes first, should we not be powering down these potentially dangerous applications & insisting the be moved.


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    #70
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    But if you replace the battery & leave the panel as is arn't you leaving a potential fire hazard behind?
    Not trying to be smart here Altor, just trying to figure out what should be allowed & what shouldn't .
    Take a different analogy for a moment. Suppose you are an electrician called to fit a socket. In the process you find faulty wiring that is a potential fire hazard. You notify the customer , but they don't want the extra expense of rewiring or repairing. In that instance is it also ok to walk away saying I did not install it.
    Just trying to explore where , and with who responsibility starts & ends.
    If safety, as you say, comes first, should we not be powering down these potentially dangerous applications & insisting the be moved.

    I understand what your saying but if i do come across a panel in a hot press i always tell the owner of the risks of having it there. If they leave it there, thats there will to do so and there responsibility.

    Realistically, it is up to them what happens with regard the panel.

    To answer your question, i would say if it was upgraded back into the hot press since the regulations came into force, the installer would be at fault.

    If it was installed there when they where allowed to be installed there its the owners responsibility.

    www.altor.ie



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    #71
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    But it the NSAI ,EQA & the others that are charged with inspecting & ensuring the installers comply
    They simply made a mistake in my opinion. That is why Altor was told something different.
    Take a different analogy for a moment. Suppose you are an electrician called to fit a socket. In the process you find faulty wiring that is a potential fire hazard. You notify the customer , but they don't want the extra expense of rewiring or repairing. In that instance is it also ok to walk away saying I did not install it.
    To take your analogy: The electrician could not certify the above work as it is not up to the required standard no matter what the customer had signed. For the same reason an alarm in a hotpress should not be certified to a standard that it does not meet. If it is it make the standard meaningless


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    #72
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    2011 wrote: »
    They simply made a mistake in my opinion. That is why Altor was told something different.
    To take your analogy: The electrician could not certify the above work as it is not up to standard no matter what the customer signed.
    .
    A mistake possibly, we have all heard to story of the heating controller.
    I have questioned this on more than one occasion and always been told it can be done.

    Whats your opinion on ths 2011?
    koolkid wrote: »
    If the mains PSU is taken out of the panel , located elsewhere in an OBO box & the low voltage AC wired on alarm cable to the panel , that would be acceptable wouldn't it?


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    #73
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Give me a few minutes to get laptop to respond too hard to reply on iPhone !!


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    #74
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    2011 wrote: »
    For the same reason an alarm in a hotpress should not be certified to a standard that it does not meet. If it is it make the standard meaningless

    Totally agree, it is either up to standard or it is not.

    www.altor.ie



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    #75
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    If the mains PSU is taken out of the panel , located elsewhere in an OBO box & the low voltage AC wired on alarm cable to the panel , that would be acceptable wouldn't it?

    Interesting idea!

    I guess that you mean all mains power would be removed, leaving the PCB and little else?

    Therefore what is left in the hotpress is operating a no more than 12 VDC with a current so low that it could not possibly cause the temperature to raise to a dangerous level.

    Strictly spaeking it would not comform with this:

    "555.6.1
    electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboard only allow an immersion heater and its associated wiring but excluding switches auxiliary equipment associated with water heating systems".

    In reality I am sure that the ETCI would not have an issue as it would be about as dangerous as leaving a calculator in there! You would be complying with the "spirit" of the regulation in my opinion.

    The other thing is that it would invalidate the alarm panel warrenty!!

    In reality it might just be less work to move the panel! Remember the spur would have to be moved too.


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    #76
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Basically you would be moving the AC PSU out of the panel & out of the hotpress. This could easilly be pulled upto the attic in most cases . The voltage feeding the panel would be around 18vac . This would be a much easier job than moving the panel especially if you have cables coming up & down into it.
    A question for my next inspection maybe.?:rolleyes:


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    #77
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    The voltage feeding the panel would be around 18vac

    18 VAC?

    Why not make life really simple and supply it at 12VAC from something like this little puppy???

    2A_PSU_w200.jpg


    You can even have the benefit of extended battery life.


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    #78
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    By the way, great debate guys!!!


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    #79
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The Panel PSU is 18vac its rectified onboard to 12vdc.


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    #80
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    The Panel PSU is 18vac its rectified onboard to 12vdc.

    Yes, but to make life simple you could bypass all of that. That way you could leave the alarms PSU in the panel (but disconnected), remove the existing battery and use the above HKC unit to power everything and the panel warrenty would still be intact.


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    #81
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    It would be the neater option allright. It is adding cost to the job, so again its whether the customer want to spend money on it.


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    #82
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    It is adding cost to the job
    Yes, extra material costs. But time is money too and this would save time!


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    #83
    Tim M-U
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Tim M-U


    ..okay! The panel should really be moved out of closet as others said but no need to! just move it up a few feet or whatever end of story! To avoid false alarms though you should do as mensioned!!:o


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    #84
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Tim M-U wrote: »
    To avoid false alarms though you should do as mensioned!!:o

    Think it was the risk of fire that was being discussed TBH :)


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    #85
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    NSAI say yes to me but no to Altor???
    EQA say yes to fred funk.

    You are both wrong. According to the NSAI and the EQA you are both in breach of the ETCI electrical rules, which means you can not certify the alarm in the hot press. You are also in breach of your S.R.40 as your not complying with the EN50131 standards and the ETCI regulations.

    www.altor.ie



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    #86
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    altor wrote: »
    You are both wrong. According to the NSAI and the EQA you are both in breach of the ETCI electrical rules, which means you can not certify the alarm in the hot press. You are also in breach of your S.R.40 as your not complying with the EN50131 standards and the ETCI regulations.

    And around and around we go.........

    We all agree that it's not in the standards, obviously the inspectors from both organisations let it slide for a reason. That reason has been explained here. You made your point three pages ago, made it well at that.

    What are you trying to prove in your post that we don't already know. Obviously when you rang them today they were going to tell you that, what else are they going to say?

    It just proves one thing that what they say over the phone is one thing and what they day face to face on the day of inspection is another.


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    #87
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    And around and around we go.........

    We all agree that it's not in the standards, obviously the inspectors from both organisations let it slide for a reason. That reason has been explained here. You made your point three pages ago, made it well at that.

    What are you trying to prove in your post that we don't already know. Obviously when you rang them today they were going to tell you that, what else are they going to say?

    It just proves one thing that what they say over the phone is one thing and what they day face to face on the day of inspection is another.

    You are in breach of the standards thats my point. You stated that its ok for you to install the alarm in the hot press. I got a member of the EQA to ring them today and he was told there is no way he is allowed install the alarm in the hot press as he would be in breach of the standards also.

    Why do you install the alarm in the hot press if you know its in breach of the standards ?

    www.altor.ie



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    #88
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    You stated that its ok for you to install the alarm in the hot press

    No I didn't.

    When the work was being carried out I told the customer that the panel needs to be moved out of the hot press, she was adamant that the panel wasn't to be moved. So I rang to EQA for their opinion who after all IMO should know the standards inside and out as they can change from time to time as you know yourself.

    This is why I posted..............
    I rang EQA , who are my certifying body, at the time of the install and they told me that if the customer signs that they are fully aware of the implications of the panel remaining in the hotpress that it can stay there.
    Why do you install the alarm in the hot press if you know its in breach of the standards ?

    As above.


    BTW, is it against the regulations to give a price before a site survey is done? just curious.


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    #89
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    No I didn't.

    When the work was being carried out I told the customer that the panel needs to be moved out of the hot press, she was adamant that the panel wasn't to be moved. So I rang to EQA for their opinion who after all IMO should know the standards inside and out as they can change from time to time as you know yourself.

    They are wrong and you as the installer who wrote
    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    We all agree that it's not in the standards

    should know better, this is not a standard that just came into effect.

    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    BTW, is it against the regulations to give a price before a site survey is done? just curious.

    Correct, a site survey needs to be carried out plus a risk assessment but you can give a rough estimate of the alarm with out going out. Any changes can be noted on the system design/as fitted document after the survey.

    www.altor.ie



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    #90
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I think this has run its course to be honest. We all agree its part of the standard. The only argument is whether the relevant certification body has the right to waive this or not. I would be inclined to think not. However on the other hand I have seen the standards altered after pressure from certain areas. Obviousally no one in the NSAI or EQA are going to put thier head on the block & say this is allowed over the phone.
    However in practice I'll bet money if I ask the question to my inspector on his next visit I'll get the same response. The issue of safety has me more perplexed to be honest.
    I don't get how it is ok to change a battery etc & walk away leaving the panel in the hotpress. While its not ok to change the panel & do the same. Regardless of the system being certified or not surly safety is paramount. If this is true, we should be able to decomission any system we come across in a hotpress & the system remain powered down untill it has been made safe. Any registered gas installer has the power to do this if they come across an unsafe installation. Whats the difference.?


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    #91
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Well said Koolkid. You are right, everyone seems to agree now.
    I don't get how it is ok to change a battery etc & walk away leaving the panel in the hotpress. While its not ok to change the panel & do the same.

    I think that what you are looking at here is the difference between maintaining an existing intruder alarm system and upgrading one. If you are replacing the panel you are clearly upgrading and therefore it should be done by the book. OTOH replacing the battery is not an upgrade in any shape or form. That is my opinion anyway!


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