Moving Alarm Panel

user1842

meercat wrote: »

if you can walk in its not considered a hotpress under regulations

Really?

KoolKid

meercat wrote: »

my point is that if this panel were in the hotpress the clothes would ignite and an even bigger fire would occur
in the photos there is nothing else that went on fire except for the wooden floor and skirting where the panel melted dropping ignited plastics and causing fire damage on floor
the whole house suffered severe smoke damage
if this were in hot press with door closed the smoke detectors may not have activated until too late

A fair point. However any location around the house could be the same & yet not be against the regs.
Under the stairs is a popular spot. Lots of coats , books, newspapers,plastic bags etc...
In fact a utility room is a popular spot for clothes also , fresh out of the dryer & primed for ignition. Come to think of it a wardrobe would be an acceptable location by the regs also.
At the end of the day any electrical device is capable of catching fire regardless of its location.
To date any instances of panels catching fire,I have seen, have been down to faulty devices & not their location.
To be fair when a fire starts we could all give examples of how another location could have been better or worse or how it wouldn't have happened if... or it would have happened if...

Mr. G

my point is that if this panel were in the hotpress the clothes would ignite and an even bigger fire would occur/QUOTE]

This is what I meant. Sorry.
Edit:

However any location around the house could be the same & yet not be against the regs.
Under the stairs is a popular spot. Lots of coats , books, newspapers,plastic bags etc...
In fact a utility room is a popular spot for clothes also , fresh out of the dryer & primed for ignition. Come to think of it a wardrobe would be an acceptable location by the regs also.
At the end of the day any electrical device is capable of catching fire regardless of its location.
To date any instances of panels catching fire,I have seen, have been down to faulty devices & not their location.
To be fair when a fire starts we could all give examples of how another location could have been better or worse or how it wouldn't have happened if... or it would have happened if...

Good point..

user1842

Mr_Grumpy wrote: »

my point is that if this panel were in the hotpress the clothes would ignite and an even bigger fire would occur/QUOTE]

This is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

Most of us probably don't have a smoke detector in our hot press? I know KoolKid it might be stupid but "Safety First" isn't stupid and even if it rarely happens alarm system panels shouldn't go in the hot-press as pointed out above.

So just to be clear. I have a smoke alarm, light and light switch in my hot press which is a walk in hot press. Am I in breach of regulation? Will my house insurance pay out if case of a fire?

KoolKid

As I'm sure was stated before. For new fresh installations the hot press is never going to be an option. But on an upgrade of a pre wired house if it a bit much to expect a customer to fork out extra for a complete new system or major rewire of the alarm.
After all if an electrician goes to a house to replace a socket
I think some installers take advantage here to try get a higher order value.
I don a job recently where a customer told me a company he had out insisted on moving the pane , firstly at extra expense to the customer & secondly wanted to put in into a bedroom in the middle of the wall.
Common sense has to prevail.
After all if an electrician goes to a house to change a switch or a socket & sees a light in a hot press should he demand it be moved?

Mr. G

dmclean1842 wrote: »

Mr_Grumpy wrote: »

So just to be clear. I have a smoke alarm, light and light switch in my hot press which is a walk in hot press. Am I in breach of regulation? Will my house insurance pay out if case of a fire?

Please see the electrical regulations regarding lights and light switchs..-Your insurance will pay out if it's listed under your policy.

altor

meercat wrote: »

Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.


sorry to bring this thread up again but above are the reasons alarm panels should not be fitted in hotpress
the occupants had a lucky escape as the smoke detectors activated
the fault was in the alarm panel itself not the adjacent consumer unit

Thanks meercat.

I would say the damage would of being a lot worse had it being in the hot press. Makes me wonder why anyone would install an alarm there.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Thanks meercat.

I would say the damage would of being a lot worse had it being in the hot press. Makes me wonder why anyone would install an alarm there.

KoolKid wrote: »

A fair point. However any location around the house could be the same & yet not be against the regs.
Under the stairs is a popular spot. Lots of coats , books, newspapers,plastic bags etc...
In fact a utility room is a popular spot for clothes also , fresh out of the dryer & primed for ignition. Come to think of it a wardrobe would be an acceptable location by the regs also.
At the end of the day any electrical device is capable of catching fire regardless of its location.
To date any instances of panels catching fire,I have seen, have been down to faulty devices & not their location.
To be fair when a fire starts we could all give examples of how another location could have been better or worse or how it wouldn't have happened if... or it would have happened if...

As you can see from previous posts we have agreed new installations should not go into the hot press.
However after that the customer does have the right to make an informed choice.
Likewise the customer can choose to say I would not like that panel in the bedroom , it would look terrible up in the middle of the wall. Or I don't want that keypad on that wall I have a mirror I want to put there.

On the other hand if an installer explains the regs and the risks the customer also has the right to decide yes we will move it.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

As you can see from previous posts we have agreed new installations should not go into the hot press.
However after that the customer does have the right to make an informed choice.
Likewise the customer can choose to say I would not like that panel in the bedroom , it would look terrible up in the middle of the wall. Or I don't want that keypad on that wall I have a mirror I want to put there.

On the other hand if an installer explains the regs and the risks the customer also has the right to decide yes we will move it.

Did you ever get the letter off your certification body to say you have the right to install the alarm control panel in there ?

KoolKid

Actually I had inspections 2 weeks ago.
We discussed this at lenght.
The NSAI position is as I said above.It is ok as long as the customer puts in writing that the regs and the risks have been explained to them and they clearly understand the risk.
He did state it should be assessed on a case by case basis, as obviousally some may have more risks than others.Eg damp , other electrics etc.
He also said anyone looking for clarification may call him.
Ill PM you his name if you wish to contact him.

altor

altor wrote: »

Did you ever get the letter off your certification body to say you have the right to install the alarm control panel in there ?

KoolKid wrote: »

The NSAI position is as I said above.It is ok as long as the customer puts in writing that the regs and the risks have been explained to them and they clearly understand the risk.

If you dont have it in writing off your certification body that an alarm control panel can be upgraded or installed in the hot press the conversation means nothing.

KoolKid

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz[sigh]
As I said we are not going over the same argument over & over.
This inspector has already inspected a job for me in this manner.
I have offered to show you the inspection report.
His signature is on that as proof its acceptable.
He has stated the NSAI's position & I accept that.
If you don't wish to then why don't you ring the contact I PMed you & ask for it in writing that it can or can't be done?
Otherwise don't keep repeating whats already been said .

altor

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
Whos arguing

I have sent him off an e-mail, got a read report but still no reply :rolleyes:

KoolKid

Maybe he finishes work at 5..

altor

Maybe he does...

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I have sent him off an e-mail, got a read report but still no reply :rolleyes:

Did you ever get a reply to this Altor?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Did you ever get a reply to this Altor?

Yes I did but he was not very helpful or forthcoming with information.
From what I have being told you can install the alarm control panel in the hot press but can not certify the alarm to the EN50131 standard.

If the alarm is to be upgraded to the EN50131 standard it need to be taken out of the hot press.

KoolKid

Did he put that in an email?
Could you forward that to me.
I really am baffled by the ammount of contradiction between them.
Time for me to have a chat with EQA and SSAIB, I think..

altor

No, it was relayed to me in a phone conversation.
You should know better, they wont put anything in writing

I am baffled also Colm as to me if you upgrade an alarm system it has to be brought up to todays standards which is what I always do, now I am being told that it is just a case of putting in a new control panel, letting the customer know the dangers, not certifying the alarm and walk away :eek:

They are now saying that all systems done this way is out side the scope of the certification body. I can understand that as it is not being certified but is the system really an upgrade or just a repair when done this way.

KoolKid

Ill be framing the reports I have along with ECTI emails.
Just a joke at this stage.
Ahh well ISEC is coming.Ill be having a chat with the other certification bodies.

altor

I would not be framing them unless they are from an official e-mail address

KoolKid

It really is a sorry state of affairs that no organisation can give a definitive answer to some very basic situations.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

It really is a sorry state of affairs that no organisation can give a definitive answer to some very basic situations.

Especially when we are all meant to be working to the same standards.

altor

New rule regarding upgrading a control panel in the hot press.

If the original installation is done prior to May 2002 then the control panel can be installed there and certified to the EN50131 standard.
It is still recommended that the control panel is moved from the hot press.

KoolKid

Whats the source of this Altor?
Secondly.How do you prove whether installation was prior or post May 2002?

altor

It is from INAB and the ETCI. They are to have sent a letter to all the certification bodies. I dont know how it is to be proved koolkid, it could be something to do when the house was built.

KoolKid

I think I'll get a copy & send onto GL asking for clarification in writing.:D
It still begs the question how one panel in a hot press can be certified to EN50131 and another one can't .
After all the safety issues would be the same.:rolleyes:

altor

I agree, it does not make sense. You should ask him again and see what he comes back with. I seen the e-mail conforming the situation but I will still not be upgrading any panel back to that location.

KoolKid

I give up trying to get straight answers from NSAI.
I'll be going with SSAIB next year.

PS. remind me to tell you sometime about my last inspections & 2 Powermax Jobs.:eek::rolleyes:

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

I give up trying to get straight answers from NSAI.
I'll be going with SSAIB next year.

PS. remind me to tell you sometime about my last inspections & 2 Powermax Jobs.:eek::rolleyes:

Thats why I changed also..

I bet I know already, send me a P.M.

paddy147

altor wrote: »

New rule regarding upgrading a control panel in the hot press.

If the original installation is done prior to May 2002 then the control panel can be installed there and certified to the EN50131 standard.
It is still recommended that the control panel is moved from the hot press.

Sweet.Dont you just love vindication.:D

KoolKid

paddy147 wrote: »

Me was right all along so.God I love vindication.:D

Really??
It appears,in some cases, panels can now be placed in a hot press and still conform to EN50131 .
In which of the following were you right?

paddy147 wrote: »

Well all I know is that 3 different alarm companies told me that I couldnt have the alarm panell in the hot press,that it wasnt allowed to be in there (where it was when I bought the house originally).So my house was rewired and the new alarm panel is now in a safer/better location now,than the hot press..

paddy147 wrote: »

Just dont put an alarm panel/battery in the hot press.Simple as that.

No rocket science needed.

paddy147 wrote: »

"You dont put an alarm panel in a hot press"............you call that waffle??

Even though what I said and my words are actually correct and true.;)

Might be waffle to you,but its the truth and it also practical common sense.


regards.

paddy147 wrote: »

House alarm panels are not allowed in a hot press either.

It is quite possible that the inconsistencies and contradictions that were highlighted here may be part of the reason for these changes.
We know for a fact this & other threads did get the attention of the NSAI and more.

altor

Technically he is right as it is a new rule

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Technically he is right as it is a new rule

Which quite possibly has been implemented because of points highlighted here in the first place. Rules are changed because things are wrong. I think this new rule is still wrong, as there are still inconsistencies, but thats another days argument.;)

altor

I agree, it is more than likely being changed due to our e-mails to and from the certification bodies. Although I too dont agree with the outcome at lease we got something to go by.

paddy147

KoolKid wrote: »

Really??

You know what........If Jesus Christ himself stood in fornt of you and said that black was black,you would say no,disagree and say black was white.

KoolKid

In God we trust.
But NSAI overrule him. :rolleyes: