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Moving Alarm Panel

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    #92
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    At the end of the day you are not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard and should not be certifying the alarm if you upgrade it back into the hot press. No mater what your inspector says. You are the installation company, you know the regulations, you have stated that but still install it in there. As i said thats your business.

    www.altor.ie



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    #93
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I know its probably not even practical, but if safety comes first why is one panel deemed safe and the other not?


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    #94
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    I know its probably not even practical, but if safety comes first why is one panel deemed safe and the other not?

    No one said the alarm panel is safe, but a replacement battery and upgrading the alarm are two totally different situations.

    www.altor.ie



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    #95
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    altor wrote: »
    At the end of the day you are not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard and should not be certifying the alarm if you upgrade it back into the hot press. No mater what your inspector says. You are the installation company, you know the regulations, you have stated that but still install it in there. As i said thats your business.
    This has turned into a very good debate re standards and regulations. I am not looking for an excuse too install in the hot press, I am simply questioning some of the logic. Please stop implying this is how I do business.
    Can you tell me if you change a battery and leave the panel in the hot press do you consider that panel safe. ?


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    #96
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    This has turned into a very good debate re standards and regulations. I am not looking for an excuse too install in the hot press, I am simply questioning some of the logic. Please stop implying this is how I do business.
    Can you tell me if you change a battery and leave the panel in the hot press do you consider that panel safe. ?

    With regard a battery change
    altor wrote: »
    if i do come across a panel in a hot press i always tell the owner of the risks of having it there. If they leave it there, thats there will to do so and there responsibility.

    Realistically, it is up to them what happens with regard the panel.

    If a customer requests an upgrade it is a totally different situation as i did not install it there, i am not going to install it there as the regulations say i cant as it is unsafe even if that was what the owner requested.

    www.altor.ie



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    #97
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Can you answer the question please ? After you change the battery do you consider the panel safe?


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    #98
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Koolkid:
    I will answer. The panel would not be 100% safe IMHO, so the answer is no. But the person that changes the battery is not upgrading the alarm system.

    An upgrade should mean that the new panel is installed to meet all the requirements of EN50131


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    #99
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Thanks 2011.I would be expecting an answer from Altor also. But the point I am trying to clarify is this. The reason for the regulation is safety. As Altor rightly pointed out safety should come first. Regardless of certifying the job or not the job should be safe. Why would you walk away from one job over it not being safe and yet not walk away from another? If there is a fire hazard is the excuse I didn't install it OK. Like the Gas Installers should we not have a responsbility to make it safe.


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    #100
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Can you answer the question please ? After you change the battery do you consider the panel safe?


    I too could not say 100% that the alarm panel already installed in the hot press is safe.

    www.altor.ie



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    #101
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    great discussion lads and you kept it all friendly and got all your points across very well.this is what boards is all about.well done all


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    #102
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I really am confused. Is your main priority safety or not?
    altor wrote: »
    As i have said if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away.
    But you will work on & leave a panel in the hot press
    altor wrote: »
    Changing the battery is not an issue to me as i am a qualified alarm engineer with plenty of experience,
    altor wrote: »
    If it requires a battery change. I am not certifying the alarm in the hot press and did not install it there.
    .

    So if you are not certifying a system then is safety no longer an issue.?
    But
    altor wrote: »
    .... These rules are there for a reason, not because some one had nothing else to do but for the safety of everyone.

    altor wrote: »
    Getting a customer to sign to say they understand that it should not be left there is in my eyes not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard....
    ....If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.
    altor wrote: »
    if i do come across a panel in a hot press i always tell the owner of the risks of having it there. If they leave it there, thats there will to do so and there responsibility....
    Realistically, it is up to them what happens with regard the panel.

    If it was installed there when they where allowed to be installed there its the owners responsibility.
    BUT!!
    altor wrote: »
    how is a elderly person to know all the risks unless they are trained in this area.


    altor wrote: »
    No one said the alarm panel is safe, but a replacement battery and upgrading the alarm are two totally different situations.
    How come if.
    altor wrote: »
    I too could not say 100% that the alarm panel already installed in the hot press is safe.
    If the panel where you changed the battery any safer than any other one installed in a hot press??


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    #103
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Just as an update.
    The alarm was moved today without any issues.
    A couple of points I would make

    1) The modern Hotpress is no longer a "hot press". Cylinders are 99% insulated so the space is no warmer than anywhere else really.
    2) There is no humidity in there as you cannot dry clothes there. Its really just a storage space.
    3) The attic would be far more susceptible to temperature & humidity changes IMO.
    4) The attic would also be covered by the landing PIR
    5) Id rather a fire start and be detected in the hotpress than in the attic.
    6) Ive seen lots of panels in cloakrooms, where its far more likely there will be clothes (And damp clothes at that)
    7) Lots of hotpresses have lights and pumps also installed.

    Thx all!


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    #104
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Thanks for the update Greebo. All good points .


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    #105
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    Thanks greebo
    the regulations were introduced not because of the heat in the press but to prevent clothes from piling on top of switches and other electrical items which may overheat due to faults and ignite the items


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    #106
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Did Astec once claim to be exempt from this because the current consumption was so low and the mains fuse was rated so low?
    Not saying it should be. Just remember something about it.


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    #107
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Just as an update.
    The alarm was moved today without any issues.
    A couple of points I would make
    Fair play
    1) The modern Hotpress is no longer a "hot press". Cylinders are 99% insulated so the space is no warmer than anywhere else really.
    Fair point, but not all are modern. Some people dont want the tank insulated so that they can use it to dry clothes. I agree with you in principle that many would be suitable from an ambient temperature point of view. But either the panel should not be certified (as it clearly is in breach of the rules) or the regulations should be changed for suitable hotpresses
    2) There is no humidity in there as you cannot dry clothes there. Its really just a storage space.
    In some cases, yes. Same answer as for number 1
    3) The attic would be far more susceptible to temperature & humidity changes IMO.
    Although the attic can have a higher ambient temperature it should not be humid. Also the panel can be installed in such a way that air can circulate around it. There is no danger of it being buried in clothes either.
    4) The attic would also be covered by the landing PIR
    True, but technicaly it is an "unprotected zone". I guess it depends on the house.
    5) Id rather a fire start and be detected in the hotpress than in the attic.
    Heat rises. The best place to have a fire (if there is a best place!) is at the top of a building!! Besides it would be easy to have a smoke detector in the attic. Most hotpresses are on landings i.e. a fire escape route.
    6) Ive seen lots of panels in cloakrooms, where its far more likely there will be clothes (And damp clothes at that)
    So they are just more unsuitable locations for an alarm panel.

    7) Lots of hotpresses have lights and pumps also installed.
    The light is not permitted. The pumps are designed for this type of enviroment and are permitted.


    In short, the regulations need to be flexiable for suitable hotpresses.


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    #108
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Did Astec once claim to be exempt from this because the current consumption was so low and the mains fuse was rated so low?
    Not saying it should be. Just remember something about it.
    I dont know. The danger might be from the battery. I'm sure you have heard about come of the Sony laptops going on fire. Low current consumption, but still major heating issues.


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    #109
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    I really am confused. Is your main priority safety or not?

    My main point is about installing the alarm to the standards it should be installed to. If it is installed in the hot press like you say you do it cant be installed to the EN50131 standard your claiming the alarm to be installed to.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Had one on my last inspection
    koolkid wrote: »
    The single point I am making is that it can be done and I have done it.

    Can you get a letter off the NSAI to back up your claim thats its ok to install the alarm in the hot press ?
    koolkid wrote: »
    Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer.
    koolkid wrote: »
    But my point is the customer can. If that were not the case I would be getting a lot more money for upgrading systems. However my policy would be, if it's allowed, to give the customer the options and let them decide.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Like I said there are lots in the standards that make no sense to me

    This will clear it up for you..
    2011 wrote: »
    That means nothing. The NSAI has to obey ETCI regulations. From the ETCI website:
    koolkid wrote: »
    But you will work on & leave a panel in the hot press

    So if you are not certifying a system then is safety no longer an issue.?

    If the panel where you changed the battery any safer than any other one installed in a hot press??

    Safety is an issue, but not like yourself i walk away than install the alarm in the hot press. I have not installed it there, if the panel needs to be replaced "upgraded" then it will have to be moved. I am not on here claiming the alarm can be installed in the hot press nor am i claiming an alarm panel in a hot press is safe.
    altor wrote: »
    I too could not say 100% that the alarm panel already installed in the hot press is safe.

    Could you say its 100% safe ?

    www.altor.ie



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    #110
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Just as an update.
    The alarm was moved today without any issues.

    Good to hear you got it sorted GreeBo

    www.altor.ie



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    #111
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    altor wrote: »
    My main point is about installing the alarm to the standards
    But earlier you said
    altor wrote: »
    There are the regulations for the electrician which we have to adhere to also. In fact boards is all about sharing information but safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.
    By my logic if safety comes first you should not feel comfortable walking away & leaving any panel in a hot press. If this is not the case please explain how a panel in a hotpress where you have changed the battery is any safer than an upgraded one.
    altor wrote: »
    Can you get a letter off the NSAI to back up your claim thats its ok to install the alarm in the hot press ?
    Will a compliance report from a system that is installed in a hot press do?
    We have been over this. If they don't admit it over the phone they certainly won't put it in writing. Either believe this has been done or call me a liar.
    altor wrote: »
    Safety is an issue, but not like yourself i walk away than install the alarm in the hot press. I have not installed it there, if the panel needs to be replaced "upgraded" then it will have to be moved. I am not on here claiming the alarm can be installed in the hot press nor am i claiming an alarm panel in a hot press is safe.
    But you have claimed
    altor wrote: »
    if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away.
    Which you then contradicted & said
    altor wrote: »
    Changing the battery is not an issue to me as i am a qualified alarm engineer with plenty of experience,
    If it requires a battery change. I am not certifying the alarm in the hot press and did not install it there.
    altor wrote: »

    Could you say its 100% safe ?
    No I can't

    You also contadicted yourself saying
    altor wrote: »
    how is a elderly person to know all the risks unless they are trained in this area.
    And then saying
    altor wrote: »
    If they leave it there, thats there will to do so and there responsibility....
    Realistically, it is up to them what happens with regard the panel.

    If it was installed there when they where allowed to be installed there its the owners responsibility

    Can you please clarify your stance on these issues.


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    #112
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    right lads, if jimmy magee was commenting he would say it was a great bout,both opponents gave their all and went toe to toe ,not giving an inch and can hold their heads high.each has put their points across brilliantly and at the end of the day a draw would be the fairest result.
    how about it


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    #113
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    There is some misleading information presented in this thread.
    To say that an alarm panel in a hot press is a fire hazard is wrong and to inform a customer that it is a fire hazard is nothing short of scare mongering. Alarm panels are designed to operate in temperatures between -10C and 50C and varying degrees of humidity.
    A loft can be even hotter and more humid.
    The only disadvantage to a panel being in a hot press is that the battery may not last as long. This is more to do with the panel as it cannot vary the battery charging voltage with fluctuations in temperature as is needed by the battery. The terminals of the battery may also corrode but this can equally happen in the utility room, loft or hot press. SLA batteries can operate in temperatures of -15C to~ 40C


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    #114
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    jnealon the etci beg to differ
    the regulations were introduced not because of the heat in the press but to prevent clothes from piling on top of switches and other electrical items which may overheat due to faults and ignite the items


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    #115
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    I have no problem with the regs, the regs are there and you have to abide by them.
    Nowhere does it mention in the regs that an alarm panel is a fire hazard.


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    #116
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    altor wrote: »
    My main point is about installing the alarm to the standards
    koolkid wrote: »
    But earlier you said
    altor wrote: »
    There are the regulations for the electrician which we have to adhere to also. In fact boards is all about sharing information but safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.
    koolkid wrote: »
    By my logic if safety comes first you should not feel comfortable walking away & leaving any panel in a hot press. If this is not the case please explain how a panel in a hotpress where you have changed the battery is any safer than an upgraded one.

    Can you point out where i have said it is safer if i change it :confused:
    If you read the part of the post i have put it in bold for you, you will see i was talking about an owner changing there own panel in the hot press.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Will a compliance report from a system that is installed in a hot press do?
    We have been over this. If they don't admit it over the phone they certainly won't put it in writing. Either believe this has been done or call me a liar.

    No it wont.
    koolkid wrote: »
    As I have said I have had jobs like this inspected and passed by the NSAI. It Is allowed. If it wasn't I wouldn't give it as an option.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Now without mentioning names , our inspector is the most black & white person I know, but he is even willing to accept changes like the hot press.

    If he is willing to accept the change ask him to put in writing and post his reply. I am not saying your a liar but its always best to have something in writing to back you up. If he is not willing to do this for you, you will know why :o
    altor wrote: »
    Safety is an issue, but not like yourself i walk away than install the alarm in the hot press. I have not installed it there, if the panel needs to be replaced "upgraded" then it will have to be moved. I am not on here claiming the alarm can be installed in the hot press nor am i claiming an alarm panel in a hot press is safe.
    koolkid wrote: »
    But you have claimed
    altor wrote: »
    if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away.

    I was talking about me upgrading an alarm for a customer. I high lighted it for you just in case you
    koolkid wrote: »
    missed that.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Which you then contradicted & said
    altor wrote: »
    Changing the battery is not an issue to me as i am a qualified alarm engineer with plenty of experience,
    If it requires a battery change. I am not certifying the alarm in the hot press and did not install it there.

    Yes i am more qualified than an owner to change a battery in there panel. Please explain how am i contradicting myself ?
    altor wrote: »
    Could you say its 100% safe ?
    koolkid wrote: »
    No I can't

    You cant, can you please explain this then ?
    koolkid wrote: »
    To say its dangerous is an overstatement IMO

    koolkid wrote: »
    You also contadicted yourself saying
    altor wrote: »
    how is a elderly person to know all the risks unless they are trained in this area.

    In reality i was giving you an answer to a problem you had with an elderly person, see below
    koolkid wrote: »
    for examply you service a system for an elderly person who can no longer get about they way they used to. They need the entry/exit time extended to ,say 120 seconds. The standards say that is not allowed. For argument sake moving the keypad is a big job .The customer does not want wiring work carried out to move a keypad etc. Would you just increase the entry exit time? or insist the work must be done?
    Now without mentioning names , our inspector is the most black & white person I know, but he is even willing to accept changes like the hot press.

    And my reply was

    altor wrote: »
    Moving a keypad and moving a panel out of a hot press for fire safety concerns are totally different situations. If the elderly person was in that situation they could always get a keyfob added on to there alarm, plus if the alarm is being upgraded in a elderly persons hot press i hope your installing plenty of smoke detectors just in case.

    koolkid wrote: »
    And then saying
    altor wrote: »
    If they leave it there, thats there will to do so and there responsibility....
    Realistically, it is up to them what happens with regard the panel.

    If it was installed there when they where allowed to be installed there its the owners responsibility

    A alarm panel that was installed in a hot press before the regulations came in is the owners responsibility. If they need to upgrade the panel and dont want it moved what can anyone do except walk away if it cant be upgraded to the standards it meant to be upgraded to, well except if your inspector is willing to give us all a letter to install them there :rolleyes:

    koolkid wrote: »
    Can you please clarify your stance on these issues.

    I hope this clarifies my stance on all these issues, if not please feel free to question them ;)

    www.altor.ie



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    #117
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    altor wrote: »
    Can you point out where i have said it is safer if i change it
    This is what I am trying to establish .On panel A you replace a battery and leave it in the hotpress, on panel B you move the panel out of the hot press. Is panel B safer ?
    Can you please tell us is safety your primary concern? Yes or no?
    You said it was. You Said a panel in a hot press is not 100% safe. If safety is your primary concern how do you justify doing work on a panel & walking away leaving the panel in the hotpress? You have said the average home owner would not be qualified to make the decision to leave it there. So if you change a battery or do some other remedial work who makes the decision to leave the panel as is?
    Also , with safety being the primary concern ( regardless of the standards) , is there any difference in an upgraded panel being in the hotpress as opposed to an existing panel being left in a hot press.?
    altor wrote: »
    If he is willing to accept the change ask him to put in writing and post his reply. I am not saying your a liar but its always best to have something in writing to back you up. If he is not willing to do this for you, you will know why
    Have we not been over this again & again?
    We all agree its in the standard. We all agree the NSAI are not going to put it in writing. Sure they won't even confirm it over the phone.
    We all agree it shouldn't be done... But it is.
    What point are you trying to make be repeating this over & over?

    To clarify if a panel is 100% safe , no its not , Is it 100% safe out side the hot press ? no its not. Is it 100% safe under the stairs? no its not?
    What I said was in my opinion to say its dangerous is an overstatement.
    Dangerous & not safe is not the same thing .To explain ,are you 100% safe travelling on a plane? no .Is it safe to fly on a plane? Yes.

    altor wrote: »
    A alarm panel that was installed in a hot press before the regulations came in is the owners responsibility. If they need to upgrade the panel and dont want it moved what can anyone do except walk away
    So is the customer now qualified enough to make that decision?
    You said they were not.


  • Options
    #118
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    right lads, if jimmy magee was commenting he would say it was a great bout,both opponents gave their all and went toe to toe ,not giving an inch and can hold their heads high.each has put their points across brilliantly and at the end of the day a draw would be the fairest result.
    how about it
    I think meercat put it very well.
    Everyone agrees on almost everything and the OP is sorted. The parts that people disagree on are very minor.

    To take this any further would be pointless unless new information can be brought to the table. If in the interest of debade someone wants to get more information then I suggest that they email the ETCI or the NSAI.

    Thanks for a good debate.

    Have a nice day :)


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    #119
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Agreed. However I will defend my business practice from undue criticism.
    WRT NSAI & EQA etc. I think its safe to say we are not going to get any written confirmation of this practice. Anyway I think we can all agree it does happen.


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    #120
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    koolkid wrote: »
    Agreed. However I will defend my business practice from undue criticism.
    WRT NSAI & EQA etc. I think its safe to say we are not going to get any written confirmation of this practice. Anyway I think we can all agree it does happen.

    Yes, I am sure it does.


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    #121
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    This is what I am trying to establish .On panel A you replace a battery and leave it in the hotpress, on panel B you move the panel out of the hot press. Is panel B safer ?

    Panel B is safer as it not in the hot press, the NSAI plus ETCI regulations say it cant go there. If you feel you have a problem with the regulations maybe you should get on to them about it.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Can you please tell us is safety your primary concern? Yes or no?
    You said it was.

    No need to answer that
    koolkid wrote: »
    You Said a panel in a hot press is not 100% safe. If safety is your primary concern how do you justify doing work on a panel & walking away leaving the panel in the hotpress? You have said the average home owner would not be qualified to make the decision to leave it there. So if you change a battery or do some other remedial work who makes the decision to leave the panel as is?

    The owner of the alarm makes the decision.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Also , with safety being the primary concern ( regardless of the standards) , is there any difference in an upgraded panel being in the hotpress as opposed to an existing panel being left in a hot press.?

    Yes, an alarm panel can not be upgraded back into a hot press. Again i think you should get on to the NSAI plus the ETCI if you have a problem with the standards.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Have we not been over this again & again?
    We all agree its in the standard. We all agree the NSAI are not going to put it in writing. Sure they won't even confirm it over the phone.
    We all agree it shouldn't be done... But it is.
    What point are you trying to make be repeating this over & over?

    The point is you keep saying it should not be done but you also say you install them there :confused:
    koolkid wrote: »
    To clarify if a panel is 100% safe , no its not , Is it 100% safe out side the hot press ? no its not. Is it 100% safe under the stairs? no its not?
    What I said was in my opinion to say its dangerous is an overstatement.
    Dangerous & not safe is not the same thing .To explain ,are you 100% safe travelling on a plane? no .Is it safe to fly on a plane? Yes.

    That is your opinion, you are entitled to that but the NSAI plus the ETCI tend to disagree. I am more willing to adhere to there regulations on this mater.
    koolkid wrote: »
    So is the customer now qualified enough to make that decision?
    You said they were not.

    If the owner is qualified in this area then they are, if they are not qualified then they are not and can only take the advice they are given.

    www.altor.ie



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