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Moving Alarm Panel

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    #122
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    2011 wrote: »
    I think meercat put it very well.
    Everyone agrees on almost everything and the OP is sorted. The parts that people disagree on are very minor.

    To take this any further would be pointless unless new information can be brought to the table. If in the interest of debade someone wants to get more information then I suggest that they email the ETCI or the NSAI.

    Thanks for a good debate.

    Have a nice day :)

    Agreed, GOOD DEBATE KOOLKID..

    www.altor.ie



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    #123
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    So just to finalize things.

    altor wrote: »
    Panel B is safer as it not in the hot press, the NSAI plus ETCI regulations say it cant go there. If you feel you have a problem with the regulations maybe you should get on to them about it.
    Haven't we all said we agree on the standards???:confused: Really no need for this in every post.
    There is one thing that I dont understand.
    If safety is your primary concern (again forget about that standards for a second) and the panel in the hot press is less safe. Why would you be happy to work on a panel thats not safe & leave it there.?
    You clearly feel strongly that this is not a safe place for them. Yet for a handy job you feel its OK as you did not install it?
    If safety is your main concern should you not walk away from every panel thats in a hot press??

    altor wrote: »
    The owner of the alarm makes the decision.
    Glad we got that sorted out. I thought it strange that a home owner is not qualified to make such decisions about thier own property
    altor wrote: »
    Yes, an alarm panel can not be upgraded back into a hot press. Again i think you should get on to the NSAI plus the ETCI if you have a problem with the standards.
    See above & earlier posts. We are in agreement re the standards.
    I am baffled by the constant referral to this to be honest. It was never in dispute.

    altor wrote: »
    The point is you keep saying it should not be done but you also say you install them there .
    Again I feel the need to clarify. I have replaced some panels in the hot press . This was the customers decision in writing which was accepted by the NSAI. If you have an issue with this you should take that up with the NSAI. I have not installed new systems there.
    altor wrote: »
    That is your opinion, you are entitled to that but the NSAI plus the ETCI tend to disagree. I am more willing to adhere to there regulations on this mater.
    I think we are all willing to adhere to the regulations. However like everything in life the NSAI would seem to understand that a little flexability may be OK. If you are going to dispute whether the NSAI will do this please have the balls to call me a liar, otherwise accept its possible.
    Perhaps you should take up your concerns with NSAI further. Wouls be interested to see how that goes.


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    #124
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Haven't we all said we agree on the standards??? Really no need for this in every post.

    They are the regulations.
    koolkid wrote: »
    There is one thing that I dont understand.
    If safety is your primary concern (again forget about that standards for a second) and the panel in the hot press is less safe. Why would you be happy to work on a panel thats not safe & leave it there.?
    You clearly feel strongly that this is not a safe place for them. Yet for a handy job you feel its OK as you did not install it?
    If safety is your main concern should you not walk away from every panel thats in a hot press??


    I think its strange how you keep telling me to forget about the standards. They are there for us to adhere too.

    Yes i do walk away rather than upgrade the panel in the hot press due to the regulations. I cant say 100% that it is safe in there, just like you cant say 100% it is safe in there. If someone has an alarm in there hot press not installed by me i would change the battery. I will tell them about having the alarm in the hot press is not advisable.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Again I feel the need to clarify. I have replaced some panels in the hot press . This was the customers decision in writing which was accepted by the NSAI.

    But this is against the regulations, it cant be done this way anymore.

    koolkid wrote: »
    I think we are all willing to adhere to the regulations. However like everything in life the NSAI would seem to understand that a little flexability may be OK. If you are going to dispute whether the NSAI will do this please have the balls to call me a liar, otherwise accept its possible.
    Perhaps you should take up your concerns with NSAI further. Wouls be interested to see how that goes.

    Again you say we are all willing to adhere to the regulations but your not if your customer signs to say they dont want it moved. It is not up to me to sort this out for you, you should either get it in writing off them or stop upgrading the alarms there.

    www.altor.ie



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    #125
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    meercat wrote: »
    right lads, if jimmy magee was commenting he would say it was a great bout,both opponents gave their all and went toe to toe ,not giving an inch and can hold their heads high.each has put their points across brilliantly and at the end of the day a draw would be the fairest result.
    how about it
    2011 wrote: »
    I think meercat put it very well.
    Everyone agrees on almost everything and the OP is sorted. The parts that people disagree on are very minor.

    To take this any further would be pointless unless new information can be brought to the table. If in the interest of debade someone wants to get more information then I suggest that they email the ETCI or the NSAI.

    Thanks for a good debate.

    Have a nice day :)

    I agree lads , its just going around in circles now.
    I dont see the point in constantly bringing up the same point in a debate when everyone is in agreement on it.

    Altor , when I asked you to forget about the standards it was to try get a straight answer without the constant diverting to the same thing over & over. Obviousally you are not willing to consider the fact that the panel you leave in the hot press is the same safey risk as a replaced one.
    With safety as the main concern & not usingthe standards allow this as an excuse, there is no logical reason to refuse one job & take another. Please don't refer back to the standards on this , it just shows your unwillingness to answer the question .

    I would like to explore this further , as has been suggested with some input from the certification bodies, unlikely as that is to happen I will give it a try on Monday. WRT what the standards & regulations are , we are all in agreement there. Any reasonable discussion after this should take that as so.


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    #126
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    I agree lads , its just going around in circles now.
    I dont see the point in constantly bringing up the same point in a debate when everyone is in agreement on it.

    koolkid wrote: »
    Altor , when I asked you to forget about the standards it was to try get a straight answer without the constant diverting to the same thing over & over. Obviousally you are not willing to consider the fact that the panel you leave in the hot press is the same safey risk as a replaced one.
    With safety as the main concern & not usingthe standards allow this as an excuse, there is no logical reason to refuse one job & take another. Please don't refer back to the standards on this , it just shows your unwillingness to answer the question .

    I think you are going around in circles here. As you can see below i have answered this question.
    altor wrote: »
    I cant say 100% that it is safe in there, just like you cant say 100% it is safe in there. If someone has an alarm in there hot press not installed by me i would change the battery. I will tell them about having the alarm in the hot press is not advisable.

    koolkid wrote: »
    I would like to explore this further , as has been suggested with some input from the certification bodies, unlikely as that is to happen I will give it a try on Monday. WRT what the standards & regulations are , we are all in agreement there. Any reasonable discussion after this should take that as so.

    Yes do and keep us posted how you get on.

    www.altor.ie



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    #127
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    That's not answering the question that's avoiding it.
    You are not doing yourself any favourable by not explaining this.
    I don't like going on about something but it was you who came on here saying how safety was your priority always. You criticized others who install panels in a hot press saying it wasn't safe. You said if you come across a panel in a hot press you walk away. Yet you are happy to work on a panel and leave it in the same unsafe situation that you criticized others here for.


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    #128
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    That's not answering the question that's avoiding it.
    You are not doing yourself any favourable by not explaining this.
    I don't like going on about something but it was you who came on here saying how safety was your priority always. You criticized others who install panels in a hot press saying it wasn't safe. You said if you come across a panel in a hot press you walk away. Yet you are happy to work on a panel and leave it in the same unsafe situation that you criticized others here for.

    You really are dragging this out now. You now say i criticized others who install alarm panels in a hot press, your breaking the regulations upgrading the alarm back into the hot press . That is fact !!! There are no regulations regarding working on an old alarm panel in a hot press. I have said i would change a battery in a alarm panel in the hot press, i have not installed the alarm there nor have i ever installed them there. I will tell them about having the alarm in the hot press is not advisable. If they decide to upgrade the alarm it will have to be moved out of the hot press. not upgraded back in to the hot press. It is the owners panel, if they dont want to move it out of the hot press what can i do. I cant say 100% that it is safe in there, just like you cant say 100% it is safe in there. If you feel i am breaking any regulations by replacing a battery of a panel in a hot press please point them out to everyone. I am just pointing out the regulations that they should be upgraded to, if you dont adhere to them thats your business. If that does not suit you you should take it up with your inspector on Monday.

    www.altor.ie



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    #129
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I have installed upgrades back into the hotpress with the NSAI's permission & with written consent fromt the customer. My inspector has told me thats acceptable. If you want to dispute that with the NSAI be my guest.
    You still haven't answered why you will walk away from one panel claiming its not safe but yet work on another panel that is in the same condition.
    Don't hide behind the standards, you have said yourself safety comes first.


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    #130
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    I have installed upgrades back into the hotpress with the NSAI's permission & with written consent fromt the customer. My inspector has told me thats acceptable. If you want to diapute that with the NSAI be my guest.

    Yes i have disputed it with the NSAI, i even said if the customer signs off that they dont want the panel moved what would be the case then. He told me its not up to standards and has to be moved. You will be on to them on Monday to get us the letter that proves you can do as you say so we will see then. By the way, best of luck with that ;)
    koolkid wrote: »
    You still haven't answered why you will walk away from one panel claiming its not safe but yet work on another panel that is in the same condition.
    Don't hide behind the standards, you have said yourself safety comes first.

    I have told you i will walk away because i would be breaking the regulations to upgrade the panel in the hot press. You say dont hide behind the standards but that hard as thats what i have to work too, be that new or upgraded alarms. Replacing a battery is totally different, ITS NOT UPGRADING. Safety does come first. I am not claiming to make the panel safer by replacing the battery.

    www.altor.ie



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    #131
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    It seems to me the standards come first for you & safety comes second. The standards allow you to work on a system & leave it although it is not safe. So you, who claims safety comes first, defend that by saying its ok because the standard allows it. Yet you have admitted a panel upgraded in a hot press is equally the same safety risk as the one where you change the battery & walk away....:confused:
    Pleasae answer logically.


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    #132
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    It seems to me the standards come first for you & safety comes second.

    Thats your opinion. I think you would be better off reading the standards rather than try teach them to me.
    koolkid wrote: »
    The standards allow you to work on a system & leave it although it is not safe.

    The standards are there for all installers to follow. If the alarm is installed to the EN50131 standard the hot press would not be an issue as its not allowed be installed there.
    koolkid wrote: »
    So you, who claims safety comes first, defend that by saying its ok because the standard allows it.

    Safety does come first. There is no standard that covers alarms in the hot press.
    koolkid wrote: »
    Yet you have admitted a panel upgraded in a hot press is equally the same safety risk as the one where you change the battery & walk away....:confused:

    Yes it is, i did not install the alarm in the hot press.

    www.altor.ie



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    #133
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Ok , not going to get a straight answer here, are we?
    First off let me say this is an important point worth following as it obviousally shows an anomaly in the standards. To keep avoiding points in any debate does not really help or back up your argument.
    I'll try to break this down into simple points with yes no answers. If you disagree with one of my answers please correct me & state why?
    The hot press is not a safe place for the panel? YES
    Any panel whether upgraded or existing, is not safe in a hotpress? YES
    Safety comes first over everything else? YES
    If the Standards were changed that prohibited any work to be carried out on systems in a hot press you would comply? YES

    OK Then...
    Taking these answers as correct, (If any are wrong please let me know), the only logical reasoning I can come to is, for you standards come first , not safety . You say a panel is not safe in the hotpress yet you are happy to work on one & leave it there. You are prepared to dispute your own statement that safety comes first by reasoning I didn't install it or the regualtions allow it. If safety does come first & you believe that ,you would be saying to hell with it. That is not safe ,I am not working on it.

    altor wrote: »
    Thats your opinion. I think you would be better off reading the standards rather than try teach them to me.

    Not trying to teach them to you. I am trying to show you thier faults.


    altor wrote: »
    Safety does come first. There is no standard that covers alarms in the hot press.
    So there is no standard therefore the safety issue is no longer a concern for you?
    altor wrote: »
    i did not install the alarm in the hot press.
    So because you did not install it are you not equally concerned as to the safety of the system?
    Safety first???


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    #134
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    koolkid wrote: »
    Ok , not going to get a straight answer here, are we?
    First off let me say this is an important point worth following as it obviousally shows an anomaly in the standards.

    How does it, please explain ?
    koolkid wrote: »
    To keep avoiding points in any debate does not really help or back up your argument.
    I'll try to break this down into simple points with yes no answers. If you disagree with one of my answers please correct me & state why?
    The hot press is not a safe place for the panel? YES
    Any panel whether upgraded or existing, is not safe in a hotpress? YES
    Safety comes first over everything else? YES
    If the Standards were changed that prohibited any work to be carried out on systems in a hot press you would comply? YES

    All correct ;)
    koolkid wrote: »
    OK Then...
    Taking these answers as correct, (If any are wrong please let me know), the only logical reasoning I can come to is, for you standards come first , not safety . You say a panel is not safe in the hotpress yet you are happy to work on one & leave it there. You are prepared to dispute your own statement that safety comes first by reasoning I didn't install it or the regualtions allow it. If safety does come first & you believe that ,you would be saying to hell with it. That is not safe ,I am not working on it.

    That is where you are wrong. Safety always come first. If i change a battery in an alarm panel in a hot press i am not claiming the alarm is any safer. I am in fact making it safer than it is with the dead battery in there. The standards i work to dont allow me to install or upgrade a panel in a hot press. You have made it clear your standards do :confused:
    koolkid wrote: »
    Not trying to teach them to you. I am trying to show you thier faults.

    Are you trying to justify that the standards dont suit you installing alarms in the hot press ? By my logic this is what your doing. To be honest you say you know your not installing the alarm to standards so why do it ? Please dont use the inspector said i can as an excuse.
    koolkid wrote: »
    So there is no standard therefore the safety issue is no longer a concern for you?

    Wrong, safety is always first.
    koolkid wrote: »
    So because you did not install it are you not equally concerned as to the safety of the system?
    Safety first???

    Safety is always first. As i said, i did not install the alarm there. There may be no standards that govern this but if an owner is not prepared to get the panel moved what can you do. If replacing the battery makes it safer than leaving the dead battery installed then thats what i will do.

    www.altor.ie



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    #135
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Sorry but you are not making sense.
    You keep saying Safety comes first but you are using the standards as your excuse for working on a panel & leaving it in a hotpress. Something you constantly say is not safe.
    If a new battery is making a system safer isn't an upgrade doing the same thing.
    I can safely say you have proved my point.
    If you feel a panel is not safe what more can you do?
    Power it down & walk away. After all safety comes first, as you said yourself if it were to save 1 life from fire its worth it.
    altor wrote: »
    The standards i work to dont allow me to install or upgrade a panel in a hot press. You have made it clear your standards do .
    Please explain what my standards are.
    altor wrote: »
    Are you trying to justify that the standards dont suit you installing alarms in the hot press ? By my logic this is what your doing. To be honest you say you know your not installing the alarm to standards so why do it ?
    I have installed specific systems into the hot press with the consent of the NSAI & the customer. In one instance a job was inspected which passed inspection with out an non conformance related to the location. How many times do I have to repeat this.
    Kindly do not insinuate it is my normal practice.


    altor wrote: »
    Wrong, safety is always first.
    Then please explain how you justify working on & leaving a panel in a hot press? If your answer is the standards again then standards come first not safety, as you have already agreed the panel is not safe there.

    altor wrote: »
    Safety is always first. As i said, i did not install the alarm there. There may be no standards that govern this but if an owner is not prepared to get the panel moved what can you do. If replacing the battery makes it safer than leaving the dead battery installed then thats what i will do.
    Same excuse .I didn't install it. Imagine if everyone took that attitude.
    The gas installer comes around & finds a leak... I didn't install the pipes, not my fault.
    The electrician finds dangerous wiring, I didn't first fix, not my problem...
    I could go on & on

    To put it quite simply you can not criticize people for something while you are willing to take customers money & leave a panel in the same state as regards safety. And whats worse is you either can't see its the same or you are simply unwilling to admit its the same & hide behind the standards or say I didn't install it & theres nothing I can do.

    If your safety standards & morals are that high why not walk away & refuse the job , full stop? Or does profit as well as standards come before safety?


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    #136
    Tim M-U
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Tim M-U


    honestly, i think we have seen the point and we don't need this discussion again! just give it up koolkid/altor...

    thanks guys:rolleyes:


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    #137
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Tim M-U wrote: »
    honestly, i think we have seen the point and we don't need this discussion again! just give it up koolkid/altor...

    thanks guys:rolleyes:

    I am happy to Tim. I think I have made my point.
    To end this on a good note I woulkd like to say well done to Altor & other for some good & interesting debate. It was a good clean fight. No hard feelings.:cool:


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    #138
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    I too would like to thank you for an interesting debate, there is no hard feelings. I would like if you could post your letter from the NSAI in response to the upgrading issue as you have not had a chance to get the response from them.

    Kind regards,

    Altor ;)

    www.altor.ie



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    #139
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    yeah lads,well done.great debate.very interesting to follow.thanks


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    #140
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    feb 2011 055.JPG

    feb 2011 046.JPG


    sorry to bring this thread up again but above are the reasons alarm panels should not be fitted in hotpress
    the occupants had a lucky escape as the smoke detectors activated
    the fault was in the alarm panel itself not the adjacent consumer unit


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    #141
    Mr. G
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 4,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Mr. G


    meercat wrote: »
    feb 2011 055.JPG

    feb 2011 046.JPG


    sorry to bring this thread up again but above are the reasons alarm panels should not be fitted in hotpress
    the occupants had a lucky escape as the smoke detectors activated
    the fault was in the alarm panel itself not the adjacent consumer unit
    Exactly, never install alarm panels in the hotpress. Do you know exactly how it/what happened with the panel?

    Not something I want to wake upto at 3am or so..:D


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    #142
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    meercat wrote: »
    feb 2011 055.JPG

    feb 2011 046.JPG


    sorry to bring this thread up again but above are the reasons alarm panels should not be fitted in hotpress
    the occupants had a lucky escape as the smoke detectors activated
    the fault was in the alarm panel itself not the adjacent consumer unit

    Thanks meercat.
    I have had one incidence similar to that.Also in a utility room.
    What panel was that may I ask?
    Mr_Grumpy wrote: »
    Exactly, never install alarm panels in the hotpress. ..:D

    But this was not in a Hop Press????:confused:
    Should There now be a directive not to install in utility rooms?


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    #143
    user1842
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭user1842


    meercat wrote: »
    lads the current electrical regulations state
    555.6.1
    electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboard only allow
    an immersion heater and its associated wiring but excluding switches
    auxiliary equipment associated with water heating systems

    a switching device controlling an immersion heater shall not be located inside an airing cupboard555.6.2
    .

    Does the above mean that you cannot install a light in your hot press????????


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    #144
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Taking it literally you cant enen use a battery light or a torch


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    #145
    user1842
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭user1842


    That's a total joke considering the fact the immersion is the most dangerous thing in there.


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    #146
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    dmclean1842 wrote: »
    That's a total joke considering the fact the immersion is the most dangerous think in there.
    Exactly.
    However panels are allowed ,if the customer signs a letter stating they have been made aware of the regs & the safety issues have been clearly explained to them.


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    #147
    Mr. G
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 4,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Mr. G


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Should There now be a directive not to install in utility rooms?
    No, there shouldn't be! Just goes to show what can happen in a hotpress. If that happened near water.. god forbid anything could happen and with no smoke detectors...:eek::(


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    #148
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    In the incidence I had It was a fault with the battery & nothing to do with the environment. I would imagine the same with the above case.
    I don't accept that it would have had to been worse if it were in the hot press. The unit in the utility room was right beside the consumer unit ..
    As regards no smoke detectors??
    Now that's just plain stupid..


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    #149
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    Thanks meercat.
    I have had one incidence similar to that.Also in a utility room.
    What panel was that may I ask?


    i dont think it would be fair to name the panel
    im sure installers could probably have a good guess

    my point is that if this panel were in the hotpress the clothes would ignite and an even bigger fire would occur
    in the photos there is nothing else that went on fire except for the wooden floor and skirting where the panel melted dropping ignited plastics and causing fire damage on floor
    the whole house suffered severe smoke damage
    if this were in hot press with door closed the smoke detectors may not have activated until too late


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    #150
    user1842
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭user1842


    meercat wrote: »
    Thanks meercat.
    I have had one incidence similar to that.Also in a utility room.
    What panel was that may I ask?


    i dont think it would be fair to name the panel
    im sure installers could probably have a good guess

    my point is that if this panel were in the hotpress the clothes would ignite and an even bigger fire would occur
    in the photos there is nothing else that went on fire except for the wooden floor and skirting where the panel melted dropping ignited plastics and causing fire damage on floor
    the whole house suffered severe smoke damage
    if this were in hot press with door closed the smoke detectors may not have activated until too late

    So you cannot put a smoke alarm in your hot press either. God I have a light and a smoke alarm in my hot press, heaven forfend


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    #151
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    dmclean1842 wrote: »
    So you cannot put a smoke alarm in your hot press either. God I have a light and a smoke alarm in my hot press, heaven forfend

    if you can walk in its not considered a hotpress under regulations


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