More on the "Psychoactive Substances" bill

Prof.Badass

Hammered hippie wrote: »

Holland has the lowest number of young people that use cannabis of all the western world, because it is legal and therefore uninteresting and for older 'hippies'. Heroin use is practically eradicated amongst the Dutch themselves...whereas it is very strongly on the rise in Ireland.
So I don't see your point mr prof Badass

My point is that the war on drugs cannot be won. Legalising weed won't get rid of the street gangs (although it would reduce their power). To get rid of the gangs you'd need to completely eliminate all demand for their products.
This would involve either legalising cocaine and heroin themselves, or some sort of safer/less addictive alternatives....the key point being that there is a demand for classical stimulants and a demand for opiates. This demand will be met, we cannot control that. What we can control is how.

hacx wrote: »

Just another day at the office, it seems.

Anyone know of any parties in favour of loosening the drug laws?

hahaha. In this country :eek:?

You gotta be joking:rolleyes:.

Shulgin

hacx wrote: »

Just another day at the office, it seems.

Anyone know of any parties in favour of loosening the drug laws?

Not in Ireland, Irish politicians are far too interested in keeping the old biddies happy and the votes piling in rather than do the right thing.

The UK Green party has this to say:

Policy
Green Party
Drugs
A realistic approach

A realistic policy on drugs would be:

Cannabis will be available through
a limited number of regulated outlets, as
under the Dutch model.

Decriminalise small-scale possession of
recreational drugs such as ecstasy.

Ban advertising or sponsorship of alco-
hol and tobacco.

Treat heroin addiction as a public health
rather than a criminal issue.

Ensure immediate funding for research
into ways of halting drug addiction
without withdrawal symptoms.

Repeal the Public Entertainment (Drugs
Misuse) Act (AKA Barry Legg Act), which
has prevented harm reduction in clubs
from taking place.

Take the drug trade out of criminal con-
trol and place it within a regulated and
controlled legal environment.

reach of the law. Green Party drugs policy
accepts the reality of drug use and strives
to minimise harm, both to the user and to
society.

Prohibition is the problem is the basic message of the article. Download the PDF below, it is well worth a read. In fact I would urge anyone interested to send it onto their local politicians.

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/policypointers/ppdrugs.pdf


Lib Dems

http://www.libdems.org.uk/press_releases_detail.aspx?title=Government_should_base_drug_policy_on_facts_-_Huhne&pPK=17c222eb-bbd2-487c-977b-2b5aa1e16c03

Government should base drug policy on facts - Huhne

Thu, 29 Oct 2009

“The best way to reduce the harm drugs cause to society is to base policy on facts," said the Liberal Democrat Shadow Home Secretary.
Commenting on today’s comments by the Government’s chief drugs adviser, Professor David Nutt, that ministers ‘devalued’ scientific evidence when considering the classification of cannabis, Chris Huhne said:

“Professor Nutt is right to suggest that there needs to be a full and frank debate about drug abuse without resorting to moral hysteria.

“The best way to reduce the harm drugs cause to society is to base policy on facts, not as a method of political posturing.

“The Government should either listen to its experts or save money by appointing a committee of tabloid newspaper editors instead.”

Augmerson

I don't think we are going to see any of the main political parties change their policy towards drugs anytime soon. This new legislation being brought is very tough and that's what Fianna Fail want to be seen as, tough on drugs. There could be no other way for them, they are hugely unpopular right now and are unlikely to get a majority in the next election; they are going to pull any trick they can and the headshops are an easy ticket.

Of course, I'm just saying what we all already know.

Hammered hippie

There is another thing that stands in the way of any proper reasoning with this government and that is sheer IQ....simple intelligence.

Yesterday this extremely tough law passed the Seanad. This law that will curb civil rights in an unparralelled way, that will make it possible to have people put away without bail on the basis of suspicion by a guard.
That is a police state in progress.
And what did one of the people who is responsible for judging whether this kind of law should pass or not say. The poor soul said that he wanted the law to be toughened up because the shops would still be able to sell pipes and bongo's............
WTF

Bongo's....really? They don't even know what they talk about..they decide about our freedom and they think head shops should stop selling bongo's.

If you think this is staggering then read the followig:

To get this law speedily through the approval of the EU it was decorated with all kinds of claims to validate an emergency treatment. Claims like that stuff was sold to kids (untrue) and these shops were undermining the law (they were sticking to the law..not undermining it..pure BS!)
The references to the proof that their claims were true were....references to newspaper articles and opinion pieces in news papers.
The same nonsense that got the witch hunt and hysteria going, sensationalist media crap, was used as proper evidence by the department of justice to build their case that head shops should be eradicated. No evidence from themselves, no research rapports, nothing but references to newspaper headlines.
There is something so very very wrong with that that I am not even going to explain it. The department of justice is using populist sensationalist newspaper pieces as evidence to pass a law that will give the Garda unparralleled power to arrest whoever they suspect without bail. Most disturbing in this is that those newspapers were pushed to publish this crap by the politicians. So they fabricated their own evidence in a way.

This government is as corrupt as any dictatorship when it comes to getting this law passed. This law will only benefit a very small minority in only one way and that is that they got their way.
People in government should bow their heads in deep deep shame and if possible just resign. When this law passes it will be the end of democracy and the start of mediacracy with Joe D. as sole ruler.

Roomic Cube

think i'll go get myself a pipe while I still can, I'd prefer a real smoking pipe, but they are very expensive

charlemont

iv lost all respect for this state , sex offenders get an easier time in our courts than people who happen to take drugs... ireland as a state is a control freak, the old order are letting rip as they fear us becoming like a mainland european country...place is a mess with the most dysfunctional politics..

The single most effective way that anti-prohibitionists can help to topple prohibitionist parties is by convincing their friends and family that the very idea is completely asinine. You don't have to go out and protest because ideas behind protests are - by and large - completely ignored by both those in power and the rest of the public. It is only through rational argument and discussion that people even have a hope of being swayed. Although I am aware that the conservative Catholic biddies probably won't listen to reason or science, that's fine because their backwards religious insanity will hopefully die out with their generation anyway, and the clock is ticking on that one.

losh

There will be a legal challenge against this by a head shop chain owner .
Its allready lodged but will take a while .

Dermot Ahern is a very dangerous politician who has an agenda that is right wing conservative fundamentalist christian. He passed a blasphemy law that was not needed.
Its hard to believe his title is Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform because the laws he has reformed has nothing to do with equality or justice.

khmk

Nothing changes, same old shiite.

politicians are bullshiiting lick-arse scum who are shameless self promoting, media loving, greedy cuunts who just tell the public what they want to hear.

They rely on ignorant sheep who are too thick to think for themselves and believe everything the gutter sensationalist press tell them to think.

no original thoughts or policies to actually progress our society and deal with subjects like drugs, prostitution etc, just lip service to further their own needs.

can't believe people still believe the tripe they come out with.

As someone else said look at the sentances for paedos, murderers and scumbags with 50 or 60 convictions being let back out on the streets.

7 years for murder ffs.

How people aren't marching and protesting demanding better is beyond me.

shameful.

Why would you want to raise children here when a "christian brother" could rape your child and get less of a sentence than someone caught with some some mephedrone?

khmk

khmk wrote: »

How people aren't marching and protesting demanding better is beyond me.

Complacency. A general strike is really the only thing that could topple the government, but that will not happen. As such, I think rational discussion is the only way.

barrackali

Deleted User wrote: »

Complacency. A general strike is really the only thing that could topple the government, but that will not happen. As such, I think rational discussion is the only way.

I think the time for discussion is over, the Bill is about to be signed into law.

DarkJager

barrackali wrote: »

I think the time for discussion is over, the Bill is about to be signed into law.

Of course it is, because this country is now, to use a very strong term, "retarded". Its going backwards, not forwards as a society. This is just the first infringement of this government on the recreational choices of its citizens. They're also looking to ban things like quad biking and stag hunting. More will follow, believe me. Anything they deem that you can do that might pose a danger to yourself or others will be banned, but it won't ever be alcohol you'll see on that list. And when they've got you all so wrapped in cotton wool that you're suffocating from just even living in this ****ty little country, you'll be crawling for the nearest airport.

Mike 1972

DarkJager wrote: »

And when they've got you all so wrapped in cotton wool that you're suffocating from just even living in this ****ty little country, you'll be crawling for the nearest airport.

Lets hope they dont ban flying

DarkJager

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Lets hope they dont ban flying

For their own safety they'd better not! Better to allow people to leave than having them come to the dail and put your heads on spikes outside it

Mike 1972

On balance I doubt if they will. After all even East Germany had an airline

DarkJager

DarkJager wrote: »

Of course it is, because this country is now, to use a very strong term, "retarded". Its going backwards, not forwards as a society.

I agree. Even though this law will undoubtedly be passed, it is still the people as a whole to elect their representatives. This is why I suggest that everyone should try to essentially "convert" their friends and family. It is entirely possible that if a sane, rational government is elected a few years into the future, they may repeal ridiculous laws such as this one, the blasphemy law and maybe even prohibition altogether.

Wishful thinking.

Athlone_Bhoy

Anybody getting their research chemicals stopped by customs with the new law?

Hammered hippie

@coconutlulz

There is no proper alternative to vote for.
I always thought the Greens were progressive but they have shown they are not by leading their own anti headshop march and campaign of intimidation in Ennis. The greens acted more like fascists than progressive in Ennis if you look at it from a human rights point of view.

The problem is that when people are elected into power in Ireland they see the word 'power' light up...but forget about the mandate of the voter.

Example. A TD for Dublin north was disgruntled that tens of thousands of voters in his district were shopping in Head Shops as if it was a normal shop and he was determined to stop it.
So there you have it. TD's don't realise they should be representing the voter...they think that they are there to tell the voter what they can and can't do. It's a dictatorship in which the little dictators are voted in every few years.
Politicians in Ireland are not representative of what goes on in Society, they are trying to determine what goes on in society.

Unfortunately its not that easy to start your own political party as you need at least one TD to be a member of your party to be (at least that is what I could find about it). How conservative protectionist is that!

charlemont

an armed uprising is needed as democracy is a waste of space with the politicians we have.. :mad:

Steodonn

Hammered hippie wrote: »

@coconutlulz

There is no proper alternative to vote for.
I always thought the Greens were progressive but they have shown they are not by leading their own anti headshop march and campaign of intimidation in Ennis. The greens acted more like fascists than progressive in Ennis if you look at it from a human rights point of view.

The problem is that when people are elected into power in Ireland they see the word 'power' light up...but forget about the mandate of the voter.

Example. A TD for Dublin north was disgruntled that tens of thousands of voters in his district were shopping in Head Shops as if it was a normal shop and he was determined to stop it.
So there you have it. TD's don't realise they should be representing the voter...they think that they are there to tell the voter what they can and can't do. It's a dictatorship in which the little dictators are voted in every few years.
Politicians in Ireland are not representative of what goes on in Society, they are trying to determine what goes on in society.

Unfortunately its not that easy to start your own political party as you need at least one TD to be a member of your party to be (at least that is what I could find about it). How conservative protectionist is that!

I think we just got one
http://fisnua.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/FIS-NUA-PROPOSED-MANIFESTO-20101.pdf

Section 9. Bad wording interesting to see where this goes

generalmiaow

Athlone_Bhoy wrote: »

Anybody getting their research chemicals stopped by customs with the new law?

1. It isn't a law yet.

2. Read the bill. It's the same as in the first post, except that the bit about bongs and pipes has been thrown out by Ahern. Here's a decent summary:

Gardaí will be able to apply to the District Court for an order prohibiting a person from selling or advertising a psychoactive substance, having previously requested the cessation of such activities.

A person who fails to comply with a court order will be guilty of an offence and the court can make a closure order in respect of the premises concerned.

It doesn't affect individuals importing substances which would fall under the act. That activity is not regulated.

AKA pat sheen

generalmiaow wrote: »

It doesn't affect individuals importing substances which would fall under the act. That activity is not regulated.

What?

A person who imports or exports a psychoactive substance knowing or being reckless as to whether that substance is being acquired or supplied for human consumption shall be guilty of an offence.

A person who imports a psychoactive substance knowing that substance is being acquired for human consumption shall be guilty of an offence.

Myrddin

AKA pat sheen wrote: »

What?

A person who imports a psychoactive substance knowing that substance is being acquired for human consumption shall be guilty of an offence.

Yeah, but who in their right mind is gonna say - "Yeah, I imported that to get as much of it up me nose as possible", rather than, "I imported that as I find it helps me relax when added to my bathwater".

Steodonn

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah, but who in their right mind is gonna say - "Yeah, I imported that to get as much of it up me nose as possible", rather than, "I imported that as I find it helps me relax when added to my bathwater".

Prove it ?

AKA pat sheen

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah, but who in their right mind is gonna say - "Yeah, I imported that to get as much of it up me nose as possible", rather than, "I imported that as I find it helps me relax when added to my bathwater".

Someone who doesn't know they are committing an offence might say it as an act of defiance and end up incriminating themselves. Also, someone further up the thread asked about customs interfering with packages. I don't know if they are doing that yet but they will.

DarkJager

AKA pat sheen wrote: »

Someone who doesn't know they are committing an offence might say it as an act of defiance and end up incriminating themselves. Also, someone further up the thread asked about customs interfering with packages. I don't know if they are doing that yet but they will.

Not yet, my orders are getting through just fine!

supermonkey

genericguy wrote: »

i want to hear this cnut tell us that alcohol and tobacco are completely harmless and that is why they are legal, or to tell us that they are massively dangerous and he doesn't give a fcuk about the people when there's precious revenue at stake.

What a :rolleyes:strawman:rolleyes:

Shulgin

DarkJager wrote: »

Not yet, my orders are getting through just fine!

This bill is clearly targeting dealers and headshops, They will have a very difficult time prosecuting individuals importing 1 or 2g of unscheduled research chemicals. I doubt they will even bother trying unless it is large amounts.

DarkJager

Shulgin wrote: »

This bill is clearly targeting dealers and headshops, They will have a very difficult time prosecuting individuals importing 1 or 2g of unscheduled research chemicals. I doubt they will even bother trying unless it is large amounts.

Good luck to them finding it in the first place, unless they are planning to x-ray every single bit of post coming into the country

generalmiaow

AKA pat sheen wrote: »

What?

A person who imports a psychoactive substance knowing that substance is being acquired for human consumption shall be guilty of an offence.

I admit I missed that. On the other hand, the process for determining that substance is "a psychoactive substance knowing that substance is being acquired for human consumption" is so convoluted that I would be pretty surprised if customs got involved in research chemicals.

For example, someone imports a gram of 1,3-unobtainium from Pandora, Alpha Centauri. As far as customs see, this is an unlabeled powder or clay like substance in a clear ziploc bag. In order for them to determine that it was psychoactive, they would have to consume it themselves. The same applies if that person imported a nutmeg or a coffee bean, both of which are psychoactive. It's completely impossible to prove that any random object in an envelope is a "psychoactive substance intended for human consumption" unless the label says "drugs" or something. So the activity is for all intents and purposes unregulated,.

Edit: Hold on there. I can't find the line AKA Pat sheen quoted in the act in the first post or anywhere else. Are you referring to "import or export" under the definition of "sale"? The intention of the law is fairly clear there tbh.
Edit 2: Anyone with a law degree able to say if Tesco can be prosecuted for selling nutmeg, ginger, etc?