Israeli Navy

Comordha

I was reading up about these thugs last night and I see a lot of European weapons manufacturers have been supplying them. Germany supplied them with 2 submarines in 2005, I wonder how these subs were delivered, and a more important question, how can a country like Israel with a much smaller GDP to our own afford such top class weaponary when we can't even upgrade our fleet? I suppose they don't have the HSE draining their coffers dry!

Morpheus

Israel is a massive exporter of military goods and technology.

Many countries send equipment here to be upgraded or modified.

Im sure there are plenty of offsets, knowledge transfers and partnerships between them and other nations which means they probably get equipment at cheaper prices.

We buy some of our equipment from them such as the Orbiter UAV's used by the army.

UltimateMale

Morphéus wrote: »

Israel is a massive exporter of military goods and technology.

More like it's bankrolled by America. Simples.

Many countries send equipment here to be upgraded or modified.

Are you Israeli ?

Im sure there are plenty of offsets, knowledge transfers and partnerships between them and other nations which means they probably get equipment at cheaper prices.

We buy some of our equipment from them such as the Orbiter UAV's used by the army.

A state that forges our passports*, attacks and kidnaps our citizens, I wouldn't buy oranges from them never mind military equipment.

* ( BTW, congratulations to the Gardai who it's believed have found the terrorist in the Israeli embassy staff respondcible and have presented a report to the Foreign Affairs dept.),

troubleshooter

Comordha wrote: »

I was reading up about these thugs last night and I see a lot of European weapons manufacturers have been supplying them. Germany supplied them with 2 submarines in 2005, I wonder how these subs were delivered, and a more important question, how can a country like Israel with a much smaller GDP to our own afford such top class weaponary when we can't even upgrade our fleet? I suppose they don't have the HSE draining their coffers dry!

As part of its war time reparations Germany supplies Israel with free or discounted military equipment as well as trains, buses, etc. I read since the end of WW2 it works out at 150,000 dollars for every Israeli citizen.


In 2009, Israeli Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced that he will demand a further 450 million to 1 billion Euros in reparations from Germany on behalf of some 30,000 Israeli forced labor survivors.[10] Israel has also sought large discounts on the purchase of two German-built Meko warships.[11]

Despite the protests, the agreement was signed in September of that year, and West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. The reparations would become a decisive part of Israel's income, comprising as high as 87.5% of the state income in 1956.[3].

Germany Has Paid Out More Than $61.8 Billion in Third Reich Reparations
Since 1951 Germany has paid more than 102 billion marks, about $61.8 billion at 1998 exchange rates, in federal government reparation payments to Israel and Third Reich victims. In addition, Germans have paid out billions in private and other public funds, including about 75 million marks ($49 million) by German firms in compensation to wartime forced laborers, the Welt am Sonntag newspaper reported recently. These figures are based on calculations by the German Finance Ministry, the influential paper said.



................Which begs the question, why are young Germans today who were not born at the time of WW2 forced to fund a nation, which did not exist during WW2.

Morpheus

I meant there, or "here" in the context that I was speaking about israel and it was the subject country referred to by the "here"...

Im Irish thanks.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

As part of its war time reparations Germany supplies Israel with free or discounted military equipment as well as trains, buses, etc. I read since the end of WW2 it works out at 150,000 dollars for every Israeli citizen.


In 2009, Israeli Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced that he will demand a further 450 million to 1 billion Euros in reparations from Germany on behalf of some 30,000 Israeli forced labor survivors.[10] Israel has also sought large discounts on the purchase of two German-built Meko warships.[11]

Despite the protests, the agreement was signed in September of that year, and West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. The reparations would become a decisive part of Israel's income, comprising as high as 87.5% of the state income in 1956.[3].

Germany Has Paid Out More Than $61.8 Billion in Third Reich Reparations
Since 1951 Germany has paid more than 102 billion marks, about $61.8 billion at 1998 exchange rates, in federal government reparation payments to Israel and Third Reich victims. In addition, Germans have paid out billions in private and other public funds, including about 75 million marks ($49 million) by German firms in compensation to wartime forced laborers, the Welt am Sonntag newspaper reported recently. These figures are based on calculations by the German Finance Ministry, the influential paper said.



................Which begs the question, why are young Germans today who were not born at the time of WW2 forced to fund a nation, which did not exist during WW2.

You've provided some information there but you've links that led to nowhere to irrelevant pages. What is the actual source for this information?

troubleshooter

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You've provided some information there but you've links that led to nowhere to irrelevant pages. What is the actual source for this information?

Google is your friend, Im too busy to list the links, type in Israel Germany reperations.

http://www.ictj.org/en/research/projects/reparations/country-cases/1808.html

Israel wants Germany to pay Holocaust Reparations, in the form of warships

Israel has asked Germany to finance and construct new warships for its navy, apparently Palestinian fishermen are a real threat to their already impressive naval forces. Israel wants blood money from Germany, and it wants it in the form of weapons, it couldn’t be more surreal if Israel asked Germany for gas chambers.
Naturally German ship builders and the politicians they vote for are as enthusiastic as Israel is about the financing as it would mean some much needed stimulus during the slow economy we’re in.
This wouldn’t be the first time either as Germany has also previously Given Israel submarines costing tax payers 566 million euros and in 2012 Germany will spend another 333 million euros to give Israel more submarines.

Manic Moran

Comordha wrote: »

I was reading up about these thugs last night

Welcome to military. We tend to try to keep the colourful generalised adjectives in Politics or AH.

NTM (One of your friendly moderators)

Steyr

Comordha wrote: »

Germany supplied them with 2 submarines in 2005, I wonder how these subs were delivered

Sorry but i imagine they sailed underwater:pac::D

Delancey

The answer as to how Israel can afford these vessels is a combination of military and economic matters. Remember the Cold War days of shortages of everything from tampons to typewriters in the USSR ? When a country expends a large proportion of its wealth on its military there is what is called an '' opportunity cost '' , in otherwords resources invested in the military cannot be invested elsewhere. This leads to the surreal situation of the USSR being unable to make a reliable car but able to have a fleet of Typhoon submarines !
I have never been to Israel ( don't plan to either ) but I know people who have - the standard of living there is low by Irish standards , for example relatively few people there have cars - military spending consumes a vast proportion of Israels wealth and there is an opportunity cost to this.

Interestingly for years it was thought the U.S.A. was the one country that could support a vast military-industrial complex and maintain what was then the worlds highest standard of living. The passage of time has proved this not to be the case - the US Budget deficit is massive and it is accepted by most economists will undermine first the US dollar and ultimately the US itself. Ronald Reagan may have outspent the Soviets but he did it by borrowing and that is starting to bite back.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

Google is your friend, Im too busy to list the links, type in Israel Germany reperations.

If you are going to make claims like that then including links to validate them is common courtesy. Statements like "I'm too busy" are a quick way to show you're either losing the argument or know that you're on shaky ground.

Also including links from a virulently anti-Israeli blog like botlbrush (for example the call the IDF "the Israeli terrorist group") doesn't do much for your argument either.

You could just as easily have used Reuters...but then that wouldn't be quite as biased would it. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSGEE5AN12E20091125

Built at ThyssenKrupp's (TKAG.DE) Blohm+Voss shipyards in Hamburg, the Meko costs around $300 million but Israel wants the German government to underwrite the sale. An official involved in the talks said Israel sought a discount of 20 to 30 percent. That would help the Meko outprice the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), which is made by American firms General Dynamics Corp (GD.N) and Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and which the Pentagon has been lobbying the Israelis to buy.

An Israeli official said despite the fact that U.S. defence grants would significantly defray the estimated $460 to $600 million cost of the LCS, the Meko topped the wish list.

troubleshooter

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If you are going to make claims like that then including links to validate them is common courtesy. Statements like "I'm too busy" are a quick way to show you're either losing the argument or know that you're on shaky ground.

Also including links from a virulently anti-Israeli blog like botlbrush (for example the call the IDF "the Israeli terrorist group") doesn't do much for your argument either.

You could just as easily have used Reuters...but then that wouldn't be quite as biased would it. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSGEE5AN12E20091125

Shakey ground ? Are you taking the pish, the 1952 reparations act means Germany has paid huge reperations and supplied military and other hardware for free or at a fraction of the cost.

If you are an Israeli and ashamed of the handouts tell your govt to stop taking them, dont come on here and tell me Im making it up :rolleyes:

Problem is Israeli sourses tell lies. You dont seriously think a tin pot nation like Israel could afford the kind of military hardware they have without getting it for free or getting the German or US tax payer to pay for it?


..................There you go, unless the German govt is lying ? Ive posted an objective source.


http://www.thelocal.de/money/20091023-22775.html

Israel wants Berlin to finance two new warships

Sources within the German government told the paper that Israel wants the Berlin to finance the MEKO corvettes, a sum that would reportedly reach hundreds of millions of euros.

The paper reported that the government has not yet reacted to Israel’s request. But “influential politicians from northern Germany,” where the shipbuilding industry is suffering from the global economic downturn, are apparently supportive in the interest of keeping German shipyards in business.

The shipbuilding contract would go to Hamburg company Blohm + Voss, the paper said.

But the internal weapons system would come from the United States, with the end result being a missile defence system on water.

Israeli naval forces have already received help from the German government. Between 1999 and 2000, three submarines completed by Kiel shipyard Howaldtswerken Deutsche Werft were delivered.

Meanwhile the government is reportedly paying for two-thirds of two more submarines with fuel-cell power plants priced at €500 million. They are currently under construction in Kiel with plans to deliver them to Israel in 2012.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

blah blah blah

The succint answer to that is....so what if they are getting these ships at a discount? Any prudent nation would try and get something at the best value possible.

troubleshooter

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The succint answer to that is....so what if they are getting these ships at a discount? Any prudent nation would try and get something at the best value possible.

Thats not my quote, its immoral that Germans are forced 65 yrs after the end of the war to finance Israels military and pay eternal reperations to a nation that did not exit during WW2.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

Thats not my quote, its immoral that Germans are forced 65 yrs after the end of the war to finance Israels military and pay eternal reperations to a nation that did not exit during WW2.

If the germans didn't feel guilty over their ancestors systematically killing millions of jews and plotting to exterminate an entire race then they could simply say no. Its not immoral at all that the Israelis should seek a discount, its common sense.

troubleshooter

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If the germans didn't feel guilty over their ancestors systematically killing millions of jews and plotting to exterminate an entire race then they could simply say no. Its not immoral at all that the Israelis should seek a discount, its common sense.

Holocaust survivors are given pensions off the German govt, thats a different point, but why should a 25 yr old Germans taxes be forced to pay for the Israeli military?

Its nothing to do with guilt rather the fact Israel has been given a right to eternal reperations from the German people.....thats not right, people are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors, no other nation gets such special favouritism.

Israel is like a small guy in a bar with a very big mouth and with a very big friend to back him up, does not make for being popular.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

Its nothing to do with guilt rather the fact Israel has been given a right to eternal reperations from the German people.....thats not right, people are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors, no other nation gets such special favouritism.

Israel is like a small guy in a bar with a very big mouth and with a very big friend to back him up, does not make for being popular.

Just because you don't like it dosen't make it wrong. If you hate Israel that much then go off to the politics forum but don't be making up strawman arguments to justify yourself.

troubleshooter

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Just because you don't like it dosen't make it wrong. If you hate Israel that much then go off to the politics forum but don't be making up strawman arguments to justify yourself.

Excuse me but this is a thread on the Israeli navy, if you dont like it pointed out how they are funded, whos on the wrong thread? Strawman? so you would rather people not know who funds your military,lol. Someone raised a point about how Israel could afford such hardware, so I informed them.

I dont hate Israel,but I do hate bullies and believe in a fair chance for everyone. Israel does itself no favours.

globemaster1986

Bullies? They are surrounded by hostile states. Gaza is run by Hamas, a terrorist organisation (even listed as such by the EU). These terrorists launch rockets into Israel at schools and hospitals. So Israel blockade Gaza and they are bullies. They are doing what they have to to defend their population. And no I'm not Israeli, I'm Irish, I can just see past the BS being spread by all the anti semite gobsh*tes out there! If rockets were raining down on Ireland from a neighbouring territory run by terrorists I wonder what your attitude would be? Bear in mind Hamas are Islamic extremists and all that involves (education, womens rigths etc) not to mention the fact that they steal most of the aid sent into Gaza for their own purposes, then launch rockets at Israel and hide among a civilian population! A blockade of Gaza is a necessary measure for Israel to prevent weapons reaching Hamas because Iran or Syria would be more than happy to provide them

troubleshooter

globemaster1986 wrote: »

Bullies? They are surrounded by hostile states. Gaza is run by Hamas, a terrorist organisation (even listed as such by the EU). These terrorists launch rockets into Israel at schools and hospitals. So Israel blockade Gaza and they are bullies. They are doing what they have to to defend their population. And no I'm not Israeli, I'm Irish, I can just see past the BS being spread by all the anti semite gobsh*tes out there! If rockets were raining down on Ireland from a neighbouring territory run by terrorists I wonder what your attitude would be? Bear in mind Hamas are Islamic extremists and all that involves (education, womens rigths etc) not to mention the fact that they steal most of the aid sent into Gaza for their own purposes, then launch rockets at Israel and hide among a civilian population! A blockade of Gaza is a necessary measure for Israel to prevent weapons reaching Hamas because Iran or Syria would be more than happy to provide them

Ha, ha, Israel was a state founded by terrorists, bit rich calling Hamas terrorists, Im not saying they are not,Im just pointing your outragous double standards. Like them or hate them Hamas were elected, which is why Israel collectively punishes the population.

How am I an an anti semite:rolleyes:, there were bombings in Ireland, but no one introduced a blockade which even banned the import of kids toys, thats just vendictive. You telling me stuff cant go through scanners, to check its not illegal, of course it could, as all freight carried by air does.

Macheavelli...said keep your friends close, your enemies closer, if Israel wants peace and to stop being hated then give the Palestinians infrastrcture, jobs, hope and propersperity and a gentle nudge to being more secular, prosperous people dont want to blow themselves up, problem is Israel believes in vengence.

Mods I realise this has gone into politics, so this is my last post on the matter. Its a heated subject.

globemaster1986

troubleshooter wrote: »

Ha, ha, Israel was a state founded by terrorists, bit rich calling Hamas terrorists, Im not saying they are not,Im just pointing your outragous double standards. Like them or hate them Hamas were elected, which is why Israel collectively punishes the population.

How am I an an anti semite:rolleyes:, there were bombings in Ireland, but no one introduced a blockade which even banned the import of kids toys, thats just vendictive. You telling me stuff cant go through scanners, to check its not illegal, of course it could, as all freight carried by air does.

Macheavelli...said keep your friends close, your enemies closer, if Israel wants peace and to stop being hated then give the Palestinians infrastrcture, jobs, hope and propersperity and a gentle nudge to being more secular, prosperous people dont want to blow themselves up, problem is Israel believes in vengence.

Mods I realise this has gone into politics, so this is my last post on the matter. Its a heated subject.

Which terrorists founded Israel? :rolleyes: It was formed after WWII to give the Jews a homeland. Are you calling the UN terrorists now?:rolleyes: I'm not saying I agree with all aspects of the blockade (ie the toys etc) but it is necessary to prevent Hamas importing weapons.

Prosperous? Gaza would not be allowed to prosper with Hamas in charge! They are essentially a spin off of the taliban in that respect! And it has nothing to do with prosperity that they blow themselves up, its fundamentalism and hatred of Jews. Most of Israels neighbours actually want to wipe it from the face of the earth, they live with that threat on a daily basis

Manic Moran

This thread is rapidsly capsising. Discussion on the sources of funding are fine, but tread carefully.

NTM