Dentist harassing me for payment!

samsemtex

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

So OP this is the story from your posts.

1. Your dentist office rings you to tell you the PRSI scheme is closing down and if you want a free checkup (free to you, the dentist gets paid by the PRSI) you need to come in in the next 3 months. - Correct
2. You make an appointment within the 3 months. - Correct
3. Your mother changes this appointment for you to a date outside the 3 months window. Your mother communicates to you that it will still be free. Did she actually ask? - I'm not 100% sure if it was outside the 3 month window but yes, she did ask. She is meticulous about these things. The dentists secretary has even admitted that she didnt tell us about it.
4. The dentist sees you and carries out treatment that takes up the dentists and staffs time. The fact that the dentist doesn't find something wrong with your teeth or do some unnecessary treatment annoys you cause the dentist didn't do anything for the money. (which you didn't pay) - Whats your point? I had to take a half day from work and drive to the dentist to go to my appointment which i had been told was free when it was rescheduled. Also, where do I say I am annoyed that I didnt get any work done
5. The dentist does not get paid by the PRSI on your behalf. - Not my fault.
6. The dentist send you an invoice for the money owed.
7. You get cross that the dentist wants to be paid for his/her work and would dare to chase you for money. - I get cross because the dentist has explicitly told me on numerous occasions that it was a free appointment
8. You feel the dentist wasted your time even though by your own admission your time is worth SFA compared to the dentists. - That is a smartass comment and to be honest i'd expect an apology for that. Being in a **** job due to a recession isn't fun after spending 5 years in college

Amazing how defensive those on the dental issues board get.

Sofa King Great

davo10 wrote: »

Ah, so things are not quite as you made them out to be. You have wilfully misled the readers of this thread and slandered your dentist making him/her out to be greedy and you a victim.
You were offerred free treatment and had 3 months to avail of it, by your own admission you rescheduled your appointment for a date after the cut off point for PRSI treatment under the old scheme, every PRSI patient in the country knows about changes to the dental scheme. This is your fault and you are responcible for the situation, so apologise to the readers of this forum for being full of s**t and pay up.

That is completely misrepresenting what he said.
1. The dentist rang him offering him a free appointment (by virtue of the dentist's ability to claim from the PRSI)
2. The OP reshceduled he appointment at which time it was confirmed by the dentist's assistant that it would still be a free appointment.
3. The OP attended the appointment on the basis of the information provided by the surgery stating that it was free.

As far as i am concerned the dentist probably made a **** load of money over the years offering people "free" appointments when they didn't necesarily need them. Someone in the surgery f*ked up and gave out the wrong information. That is not the OPs fault. The dentist needs to suck it up, write it off and move on.

OP, i'd write to the dentist telling them that you attended the appointment following confirmation from a member of his staff that the appointment would not cost you anything. I'd also tell him that because of that you won't be paying for it.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

samsemtex wrote: »

Amazing how defensive those on the dental issues board get.

Take it to a different forum then, transferred to consumer issues, this really is not a dental issue.

The general assumption by you is that the dentist makes so much that there is not need to pay. Dentists are small business people under pressure in this recession to hold on to their staff and keep suppliers in business. Also the checkup is not free, your pay PRSI for it. You would swear the dentist held a gun to your head and marched you into the chair.

samsemtex

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

Take it to a different forum then, transferred to consumer issues, this really is not a dental issue.

The general assumption by you is that the dentist makes so much that there is not need to pay. Dentists are small business people under pressure in this recession to hold on to their staff and keep suppliers in business. Also the checkup is not free, your pay PRSI for it. You would swear the dentist held a gun to your head and marched you into the chair.

Ah, incorrect again. I only ever mentinoed how much the dentist makes in comparison to my wages when YOU started going on about how I had left the dentist out of pocket and I was shortchanging him and that he should cut his staffs pay to make up for this gross injustice. When in reality his being out €70 is proportionately much less to him than it is to me. I would never have mentioned it otherwise so that is not the issue AT ALL.

Also, I never asked for it to go into dental issues. I didnt particularly want it to go there as there is pretty much no chance of getting an objective answer and that is pretty clear from the answers that have come from the two dentists on the board.

dudara

Right, this issue is in Consumer Issues now, so I want a clean discussion.

Please keep all dentist-economics-business type comments out of it.

The topic at hand is whether or not the OP should pay for a service which they were (apparently) informed would be free.

dudara

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Fair enough....

My opinion as a Dentist is that the OP should pay but with some protest that he or she was ill informed by the staff in the dentists office. The PRSI is (was) and insurance scheme which reimbursed dentists. The OP was not covered by the insurance policy but had availed of private treatment services.

Autoglass do free windscreen crack repair, but its not free at all they claim on your insurance. No insurance, not free.

P. Breathnach

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

My opinion as a Dentist is that the OP should pay but with some protest that he or she was ill informed by the staff in the dentists office. The PRSI is (was) and insurance scheme which reimbursed dentists. The OP was not covered by the insurance policy but had availed of private treatment services.

Autoglass do free windscreen crack repair, but its not free at all they claim on your insurance. No insurance, not free.

If the facts are accurately presented by OP, I would disagree, and quite strongly. The dentist proposed the visit on the basis that it would be free to OP, and when the appointment was re-scheduled the dentist's office gave an assurance that the visit would still be free.

Let's be realistic here: most people trust their doctors and pharmacists and dentists to know what is covered by social insurance, and that works satisfactorily in almost every case. It looks as if in this case the dentist or her staff made a mistake, and want OP to carry the can. Not good; not fair; probably not legally enforceable.

[The facts that OP has a modest income, and that many dentists enjoy good incomes, are quite irrelevant. As is the suggestion that dentists are struggling to keep their small businesses alive.]

keithclancy

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

Fair enough....

My opinion as a Dentist is that the OP should pay but with some protest that he or she was ill informed by the staff in the dentists office. The PRSI is (was) and insurance scheme which reimbursed dentists. The OP was not covered by the insurance policy but had availed of private treatment services.

Autoglass do free windscreen crack repair, but its not free at all they claim on your insurance. No insurance, not free.

Autoglass say its 'Usually free' and advise that you should check with your Insurance company to see what is covered.

In this case the Dentist contacted the OP, advised that he should have a checkup and the op went on the sweetener that it was free.

Later the Dentist finds out its not free and sends the OP a bill, Dentists fault as he provided the information to the OP, the OP did not request anything from the Dentist the service was offered by the Dentist.

The Dentist should check before hand if the work is covered before he/she performs that work as there there never was any agreement with the OP to pay for it.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

If the OP does not pay he or she should not be surprised if its passed on to a debt collection agency.

cojomo2

To be honest, I think this thread should be closed.

Its clear from the facts and from the feedback of everyone here (apart from the dentists, which I feel are biased) that the OP should not have to pay the dentist, end of.

This is, of course , assuming all the facts laid out by the OP are true and accurate.

keithclancy

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

If the OP does not pay he or she should not be surprised if its passed on to a debt collection agency.

So what ?
The OP can just let it go to court and state

"There was no agreement for payment of this service, I was told it was covered on the PRSI Scheme and underwent the procedure based on the information provided by the Dental Professional"

Also, TBH I've never heard of a Dentist passing on a 70 euro debt to a collection agency, they'd be too small to spend the time + hassle on it.

davo10

The crux of the issue is that the OP was offerred treatment under PRSI scheme, this treatment was time limited and he did not take it up prior to time running out so he is a PRIVATE PATIENT. He is giving us third hand info as his mother was also involved with rescheduling the appointment. At the end of it all he had 3 months to avail of it and didnt.

I think also there is a feeling that it was in the dentists's best interest to "offer" this treatment, make absolutely no mistake here, there are thousands of PRSI workers who would have been delighted if their dentist rang to advise them of their entitlement to "free" treatment up to March 31st, and I can assure you many people reading this tripe would not have waited months to avail of it. Since January 1st hundreds of my patients have regretted the fact that they missed the oppertunity to get something they had paid for through their PRSI contributions and now have to pay private fees. You were offerred something which was great value and it doesn't come much better than being free which through your own tardiness you mucked up.

keithclancy

davo10 wrote: »

The crux of the issue is that the OP was offerred treatment under PRSI scheme, this treatment was time limited and he did not take it up prior to time running out so he is a PRIVATE PATIENT. He is giving us third hand info as his mother was also involved with rescheduling the appointment. At the end of it all he had 3 months to avail of it and didnt.

I think also there is a feeling that it was in the dentists's best interest to "offer" this treatment, make absolutely no mistake here, there are thousands of PRSI workers who would have been delighted if their dentist rang to advise them of their entitlement to "free" treatment up to March 31st, and I can assure you many people reading this tripe would not have waited months to avail of it. Since January 1st hundreds of my patients have regretted the fact that they missed the oppertunity to get something they had paid for through their PRSI contributions and now have to pay private fees. You were offerred something which was great value and it doesn't come much better than being free which through your own tardiness you mucked up.

No, the crux of the issue is that none of that was explained to the OP, while you may know that is the case, the op did not. He genuinely did not know he would have to pay and if he knew he did have to pay he wouldn't have availed of the service.

You cannot offer someone a service, advertise it as something that the customer doesn't have to pay for, perform the work and then send a bill afterwards.

At the very least for the Dentist to cover himself he would have to clearly explain the terms and conditions of the agreement if not in writing.

The dentist made the mistake and now its their problem.

dan719

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

I will not let this turn into a dentist bashing thread.

I didn't know you were a consumer issues mod.:rolleyes:

btkm8unsl0w5r4

dan719 wrote: »

I didn't know you were a consumer issues mod.:rolleyes:

Read the thread again there Dan, it will come to you. :rolleyes:

keithclancy wrote: »

Dentist passing on a 70 euro debt to a collection agency, they'd be too small to spend the time + hassle on it.

Collection agencies work on a percentage. I send all my bad depts more than 12 months old (after 2 letters and one call) off to the collectors. They chase the dept and take 60-75 cents on the euro of everything they manage to recoup, I get the remaining 35 cents (its better than nothing) it cost me nothing. I print out the list from the computer and off it goes. I chase all debts more than 50 euro, it all adds up.

What I would say is that the OP must contact the dentist and talk, not come on the internet and give out looking for backup from strangers that now nothing about dental practice or the ins and outs of the PRSI scheme.

davo10

Keith its clear from first post that he was given the facts, it was PRSI treatment and the rules were changing, he seems to have understood this clearly but did'nt take up the treatment before the date of change, March 31st. While I appreciate there has been some confusion and possible misunderstanding, I cannot help but feel that 3 months is a lot of time to avail of something like this, also I would have my doubts that he was not told of this prior to treatment or on the day of appointment, I suspect he had the treatment and told the receptionist he would be back to pay but is now chancing his arm.

Magenta

samsemtex wrote: »

My mother asked when she reschedule and she was told 100% that it would be free.

Maybe your mother got it wrong, maybe there was a misunderstanding?
If so, let it be a lesson to you to make your own appointments in future- if you are old enough to work, you are old enough to organise an appointment for yourself.

cojomo2

dan719 wrote: »

I didn't know you were a consumer issues mod.:rolleyes:

was posted when the thread was in Dental Issues.

dan719

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

Read the thread again there Dan, it will come to you. :rolleyes:

I'm sure it will. Probably quicker than that knob will get his money too. In fact I hope it's you who is out of pocket.

Sofa King Great

Some serious aggression from the Dentists posting on this thread...

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Magenta wrote: »

Maybe your mother got it wrong, maybe there was a misunderstanding?
If so, let it be a lesson to you to make your own appointments in future- if you are old enough to work, you are old enough to organise an appointment for yourself.

I find it hard to believe that the staff would have told your mum that it was still free, all practices, dentists and staff were acutely aware of the cut off date, they had been talking to patients for months about it ( and calling them up to avail of treatment before the scheme ended). Also the PRSI scheme is not totally gone, you can still get a check up for free once a year.

dan719 wrote: »

I'm sure it will. Probably quicker than that knob will get his money too. In fact I hope it's you who is out of pocket.

Thanks Dan719, no its not me but thank for thinking of me. Unfortunately when I add up my bad depts at the end of the year it makes up part of my fee to patients the following year. So its is in fact you (the paying patient) who are out of pocket.

samsemtex

davo10 wrote: »

The crux of the issue is that the OP was offerred treatment under PRSI scheme, this treatment was time limited and he did not take it up prior to time running out so he is a PRIVATE PATIENT. He is giving us third hand info as his mother was also involved with rescheduling the appointment. At the end of it all he had 3 months to avail of it and didnt.

I think also there is a feeling that it was in the dentists's best interest to "offer" this treatment, make absolutely no mistake here, there are thousands of PRSI workers who would have been delighted if their dentist rang to advise them of their entitlement to "free" treatment up to March 31st, and I can assure you many people reading this tripe would not have waited months to avail of it. Since January 1st hundreds of my patients have regretted the fact that they missed the oppertunity to get something they had paid for through their PRSI contributions and now have to pay private fees. You were offerred something which was great value and it doesn't come much better than being free which through your own tardiness you mucked up.

What are you talking about? The dentist said it would be free when it was rearranged. I think it is pretty clear to everyone here that the dentist mucked it up by telling me the second appointment was free. If he said "yeah you can reschedule but your appointment will no longer be free" then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Obviously in your mind though, a dentist could never make this mistake and the error must be that of his pleb like patient whose inferior mental capacity has not allowed him to fully absorb the complexities of this situation. :rolleyes:

Stercus Accidit

The dentist doesn't deserve nor is entitled to a penny from the OP.

Availing of a service is a contract, if an agreement is made on a contract, that is the contract, that is then negated and must be agreed upon again if there is any change in the terms.

The OP agreed to free treatment, and was subsequently told he had to pay, this is a no-brainer to say the contract is voided.

samsemtex

davo10 wrote: »

Keith its clear from first post that he was given the facts, it was PRSI treatment and the rules were changing, he seems to have understood this clearly but did'nt take up the treatment before the date of change, March 31st. While I appreciate there has been some confusion and possible misunderstanding, I cannot help but feel that 3 months is a lot of time to avail of something like this, also I would have my doubts that he was not told of this prior to treatment or on the day of appointment, I suspect he had the treatment and told the receptionist he would be back to pay but is now chancing his arm.

Oh do piss off davo. You dont know me in the slightest and for what its worth I have never not paid a bill in my life so keep your little personal attacks to yourself. If i was just chancing my arm why would I ask on this forum about it? I would know that i was chancing my arm and would not be seeking the opinion of anyone else.

keithclancy

davo10 wrote: »

Keith its clear from first post that he was given the facts, it was PRSI treatment and the rules were changing, he seems to have understood this clearly but did'nt take up the treatment before the date of change, March 31st. While I appreciate there has been some confusion and possible misunderstanding, I cannot help but feel that 3 months is a lot of time to avail of something like this, also I would have my doubts that he was not told of this prior to treatment or on the day of appointment, I suspect he had the treatment and told the receptionist he would be back to pay but is now chancing his arm.

samsemtex wrote: »

My dentist called me at the end of last year/start of this year to arrange an appointment saying i was entitled to a free appointment under my PRSI entitlements. I think this was because they have changed the system and in future i wont be entitled to have my PRSI cover my dental work. Anyway, i was told this is 100% covered under the old scheme and invited in. I went in and got my teeth cleaned anyway nothing major.

Went home, nothing was said about a bill and now they are calling me and sending me bills saying that i wasnt actually covered by the scheme because the appointment had been rescheduled. Now since it's their mistake should i tell them to take a hike? Ive been ignoring them so far.

This was offered up front, why would the OP lie on a forum and how exactly is this going to benefit them ?

The dentist provided the information and the service.

For example any company offering a service e.g. Government scrappage scheme clearly state the date until when the offer is valid.

If your offering a service and have stated to the customer that they do not have to pay, you should at the very least check first if that is the case and if it is not then make sure that the customer understands this before performing the work.

davo10

"My dentist called me at the end of last year/start of this year to arrange an appointment saying i was entitled to a free appointment under my PRSI entitlements. I think this was because they have changed the system and in future i wont be entitled to have my PRSI cover my dental work. "

You obviously had the mental capacity to understand this as you posted it, so you knew from the very outset it was time limited, you not your Mum, you.

cojomo2

Jaxton Raspy Elk wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that the staff would have told your mum that it was still free, all practices, dentists and staff were acutely aware of the cut off date, they had been talking to patients for months about it ( and calling them up to avail of treatment before the scheme ended). Also the PRSI scheme is not totally gone, you can still get a check up for free once a year.

that's fair enough if that's what you think, but, the OP has confirmed '100%' that the staff did say it would still be free.

So are you basing your opinions on the basis that you are assuming that the OP is either mistaken, or lying?

What if he is not? Does your opinion change then?

keithclancy

davo10 wrote: »

"My dentist called me at the end of last year/start of this year to arrange an appointment saying i was entitled to a free appointment under my PRSI entitlements. I think this was because they have changed the system and in future i wont be entitled to have my PRSI cover my dental work. "

You obviously had the mental capacity to understand this as you posted it, so you knew from the very outset it was time limited, you not your Mum, you.

Well he obviously knows this now as he's after getting a bill from the Dentist.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

The dentist doesn't deserve nor is entitled to a penny from the OP.

Availing of a service is a contract, if an agreement is made on a contract, that is the contract, that is then negated and must be agreed upon again if there is any change in the terms.

The OP agreed to free treatment, and was subsequently told he had to pay, this is a no-brainer to say the contract is voided.

Irish contract law states that consideration must be "sufficient" and "real" , but need not be "adequate" . Free (no consideration) treatment is not sufficient to be recognized as a service contract. One cent is fine, free is not as there is not exchange.

cojomo2, If the OP tell it as it is, then as I have posted several times before I think that the breakdown in communication on the dentists part deserves some consideration, however to expect the dentist to suck it up entirely is IMHO unreasonable.

davo10

Keith I still suspect he was told, and you crossed out an equally important part of the story, he understood he had to take it up within a certain period. He has been economical with the info and only acknowledged that the treatment may have been after the scheme ended when he was prompted. Also it is very possible that the Mum was not told treatment was free, I think he's a chancer.