Why was Nelson's Pillar Destroyed?

CDfm

mcmickey wrote: »

( BTW, yourself and Fred seem to be a mirror image of one another. )

but there are millions of people of irish extraction in britain and they will see things differently to us culturally , socially and politically.

As many as 6 million people in the UK have an Irish grandfather or grandmother, which entitles them to claim citizenship in the Republic. The same generous regulations have traditionally allowed the Irish football team to draw on a wide reserve of talent

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/sep/13/britishidentity.travelnews.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

All his children died before he did.



Patrick Bronte had distanced himself from his own family while still in Ireland. He was one of 10 children. He left them at 16 and became a tutor elsewhere in county Down. Some years later he got a chance to go to over to Cambridge and become a clergyman and took it- he was in the mid 20s by then.

Many, many Irish born authors are included on the English language curriculum in Universities around the world. James Joyce is probably the most consistent in this. Certainly on US campuses.

THere are Bronte relatives

http://users.aristotle.net/~gblane/genealogy/hbronte.html

But i am still interested in the money question - more out of fun than anything.

Fratton Fred

mcmickey wrote: »

( BTW, yourself and Fred seem to be a mirror image of one another. )

I am much better looking!!

Don't listen to McArmalite, sorry "Ultimate" male, he is convinced the whole world is ganging up on him.

I haven't been educated in Ireland, but I have lived here for four years and I find Irish History to be fascinating. The trouble is, it is incredibly politicised and there are so many "Facts" that are appear to have been created or at least spun for purely political effect.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

THere are Bronte relatives

http://users.aristotle.net/~gblane/genealogy/hbronte.html

But i am still interested in the money question - more out of fun than anything.

@marchdub

http://www.irishmidlandsancestry.com/content/offaly/people/bronte_charlotte.htm

A little bit more on the Arthur Nicholls family and relatives including one who was assasintated on the orders of Michael Collins.

http://www.irishmidlandsancestry.com/content/offaly/people/bronte_charlotte.htm

Facinating stuff and Mr Charlotte Bronte was from a better background then the Bronte Family themselves.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I haven't been educated in Ireland, but I have lived here for four years and I find Irish History to be fascinating. The trouble is, it is incredibly politicised and there are so many "Facts" that are appear to have been created or at least spun for purely political effect.

That is not something unique to Ireland. "History" is frequently used to bolster the status quo in many countries - especially those under Colonial rule and in post revolutionary phases. The colonial power has one version and the colonized another. Getting the narrative straight - searching out all original sources - is always a struggle in any society IMO.

English history is undergoing an interesting phase and the "Whig historians" of Empire are being set side and a new narrative is emerging. I was at an English Univ during the last phase of the "Whig" version but that has since given way to a more inclusive - and broader - narrative as the realities of Empire are emerging and being accepted. And a new generation also helps.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

That is not something unique to Ireland. "History" is frequently used to bolster the status quo in many countries - especially those under Colonial rule and in post revolutionary phases. The colonial power has one version and the colonized another. Getting the narrative straight - searching out all original sources - is always a struggle in any society IMO.

English history is undergoing an interesting phase and the "Whig historians" of Empire are being set side and a new narrative is emerging. I was at an English Univ during the last phase of the "Whig" version but that has since given way to a more inclusive - and broader - narrative as the realities of Empire are emerging and being accepted. And a new generation also helps.

i was thinking more of straight foward thaings that seem to be accepted into everyday Irish thinking, like the Bron in a stable quote, or Drogheda's emblem. I have heard a lot of people wh take it for granted that Guinnes was originally called Guinness's protestant porter, not realising that again, it was a name given to it by Wolfe Tone.

I suppose it could all part of the Irish love of a good story.....:D

brianthebard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i was thinking more of straight foward thaings that seem to be accepted into everyday Irish thinking, like the Bron in a stable quote, or Drogheda's emblem. I have heard a lot of people wh take it for granted that Guinnes was originally called Guinness's protestant porter, not realising that again, it was a name given to it by Wolfe Tone.

I suppose it could all part of the Irish love of a good story.....:D

tbh dude those are just misconceptions or misremembered factoids, I don't think they reflect Irish history as a whole, any more than the phrases 'not tonight josephine' and 'let them eat cake' represent french history or 'once more into the breach' is representative of english history. There are dozens of invented phrases and history which exist in every nations history among the real stuff.

CDfm

Protestant Porter - LOL -I like it.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i was thinking more of straight foward thaings that seem to be accepted into everyday Irish thinking, like the Bron in a stable quote, or Drogheda's emblem. I have heard a lot of people wh take it for granted that Guinnes was originally called Guinness's protestant porter, not realising that again, it was a name given to it by Wolfe Tone.

I suppose it could all part of the Irish love of a good story.....:D

I suppose I wouldn't think of any of that as being "history" more your urban myths like the "virginity" of "Good" Queen Bess -or the elemental "civilising" claims of empire. Or the nineteenth century rumours of Queen Victoria's illegitimacy used by the anti-monarchists. Stories that make some people feel better - or justify actions - are everywhere.

It's when they are used to establish a single, unchallengeable narrative that the trouble begins - and all countries are guilty of this.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

.

It's when they are used to establish a single, unchallengeable narrative that the trouble begins - and all countries are guilty of this.

Exactly and in the US during the Bush administration the diet of propaganda fed to the Americans unchallenged in the broadcast media reached new heights.

The message being that they were welcome and popular in the middle east and their opponents were terrorists.

So history depends on which side you are on and of course what foot you kick with. Our inate "nationalism" and tribal loyalties will kick in.

History allows us to kick them to one side when we are objective but we still are loyal to our tribe-I always try to see the other pov.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Exactly and in the US during the Bush administration the diet of propaganda fed to the Americans unchallenged in the broadcast media reached new heights.

The message being that they were welcome and popular in the middle east and their opponents were terrorists.

.

Yes. And history is full of such incidents. Now where could we look for an Irish/British analogy to this? Mmmm....

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Yes. And history is full of such incidents. Now where could we look for an Irish/British analogy to this? Mmmm....

Like when Princess Di died flags on public buildings flew at half mast :D:D

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/flags-fly-at-half-mast-in-face-of-protests-309636.html

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Like when Princess Di died flags on public buildings flew at half mast :D:D

O yes, quite a profound, historic moment that was. How could we forget??

mcmickey

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I am much better looking!!

Don't listen to McArmalite, sorry "Ultimate" male, he is convinced the whole world is ganging up on him.

I haven't been educated in Ireland, but I have lived here for four years and I find Irish History to be fascinating. The trouble is, it is incredibly politicised and there are so many "Facts" that are appear to have been created or at least spun for purely political effect.

MarchDub wrote: »

That is not something unique to Ireland. "History" is frequently used to bolster the status quo in many countries - especially those under Colonial rule and in post revolutionary phases. The colonial power has one version and the colonized another. Getting the narrative straight - searching out all original sources - is always a struggle in any society IMO.

English history is undergoing an interesting phase and the "Whig historians" of Empire are being set side and a new narrative is emerging. I was at an English Univ during the last phase of the "Whig" version but that has since given way to a more inclusive - and broader - narrative as the realities of Empire are emerging and being accepted. And a new generation also helps.

Agree with you March, our friend above ( Fratton Fred) always posts as if the silly genetically child minded Irish have " so many "Facts" that are appear to have been created or at least spun for purely political effect. " - which is something else coming from the British.

( And BTW what the other person said is true, it's easy to see who getz really is, the bad spelling and grammar does not cover it up Fred....or should that be getz )

brianthebard

FFS Fred is not getz, next person to post on that topic is banned. Mod. I don't want to see any more of this bull in the forum.

getz

CDfm wrote: »

@marchdub

http://www.irishmidlandsancestry.com/content/offaly/people/bronte_charlotte.htm

A little bit more on the Arthur Nicholls family and relatives including one who was assasintated on the orders of Michael Collins.

http://www.irishmidlandsancestry.com/content/offaly/people/bronte_charlotte.htm

Facinating stuff and Mr Charlotte Bronte was from a better background then the Bronte Family themselves.

thanks CDfm that gives me a insite on the extended bronte family that i did not know,

indioblack

MarchDub wrote: »

Don't know what "British history" you might mean.

From the time of the initial invasion there was an assertion of privilege by a succession of English authors - beginning with Giraldus Cambrensis and his attacks on Irish society. In trying to counter this unbalanced history - written to defend the invasion and the continued presence of the English here - there were also attempts by Irish authors to give the Irish view of things. This was a constant struggle.

The four Masters and Geoffrey Keating - writing from the early 1600s - state categorically that they are writing to counteract the "lies" being told about Irish society by Elizabethan authors. Keating states that he writes "lest so honourable a land as Eire, and kindreds so noble as those who inhabit it, should pass away without mention or report of them".

The fear was that Irish history was falling into the hands of the invader - and was being slanted to support the view of the conqueror. So, what's new?

Yes, it was awful before the celtic colonisers/invaders came here and invented their own history!
History was falling into the hands of the invader - so what's new?

CDfm

indioblack wrote: »

- so what's new?

the internet :eek:

indioblack

CDfm wrote: »

the internet :eek:

and i pods!
You can do better than that!

CDfm

indioblack wrote: »

and i pods!
You can do better than that!

Classy

The big thing is if I read history before the internet I was limited by a book by an "expert". FSL Lyons for instance or Prof Murphy in Cork were the experts.

Now I can go on-line & check data and even footnotes and I do not have to accept a world view given to me. Thats a huge change.

I can discuss stuff here I would never have touched on in college like voting by gender rights before independence.

Or I can look at crime and punishment or society in a quirky way too and post what I learn.

The Irish History I was taught was about nationalim and colonialism -there is a bit more than that to Ireland.

indioblack

CDfm wrote: »

Classy



The Irish History I was taught was about nationalim and colonialism -there is a bit more than that to Ireland.

Well said!
But, sadly, the relatives I meet in Ireland seem to want to talk about nothing else.

CDfm

indioblack wrote: »

Well said!
But, sadly, the relatives I meet in Ireland seem to want to talk about nothing else.

thats sad, i have been known to make the odd comment about the " cruel and evil colonial oppressor" myself but there is more to thir irish identity than that.

MarchDub

indioblack wrote: »

Yes, it was awful before the celtic colonisers/invaders came here and invented their own history!
History was falling into the hands of the invader - so what's new?

Not sure what you are referring to here - but there was no "Celtic" people invasion of Ireland. That is mythology - not history.

indioblack

MarchDub wrote: »

Not sure what you are referring to here - but there was no "Celtic" people invasion of Ireland. That is mythology - not history.

You mean no people came to Ireland under the umbrella term 'Celtic'?

MarchDub

indioblack wrote: »

You mean no people came to Ireland under the umbrella term 'Celtic'?

Correct. That is mythology. Not history. The two - mythology and actual history - have been separated in Irish archeology/pre-history studies for over 50 years now.

There was no so called Celtic people invasion to Ireland.

aDeener

id bloody well prefer if the pillar was there now instead of the piece of shit that has since taken its place

CDfm

aDeener wrote: »

id bloody well prefer if the pillar was there now instead of the piece of shit that has since taken its place

Lots of people would.

indioblack

MarchDub wrote: »

Correct. That is mythology. Not history. The two - mythology and actual history - have been separated in Irish archeology/pre-history studies for over 50 years now.

There was no so called Celtic people invasion to Ireland.

That's interesting. I can think of one archeological examination of human remains in Northern England - one apparently an Iron Age man, if I remember correctly, and another identified as a Celt. I can only assume the distinction was made on the basis of artefacts found with them.
The DNA of both was the same.
And yet, if this doesn't sound contradictory, the Celtic culture cannot be removed from the people who were part of it. At some point the values, attitudes and expressions of this culture would have to owe their spread to people, and this would include the movement of people - though not on a mass-migratory sense.

KeithAFC

Lord Nelson was a top class general. Respect to him for that.

getz

KeithAFC wrote: »

Lord Nelson was a top class general. Respect to him for that.

vice admiral lord nelson,like emperor nepolian bonaparte was respected by both friends and enemies alike [except in modern ireland]