Is this bike any good?

xz

aidanbike wrote: »

from bustedcarbon.com Pinarello prince.


Joshua sent this one in. 3 months old. Fell over. Toast.


It's not unexpected for a frame to break when it gets crashed into a concrete block at 40+ km/h, but when it just tips over and breaks, I think that hurts the most.

Wow, for the infallible material that sucks,
And for all the safety reps. burn your r-sys now.

Carbon, Kona pm me when your carbon chain comes in

LOL

I FIND IT INCREDIBLY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT, THAT BIKE SNAPPED LIKE THAT BY SIMPLY FALLING OVER, THAT DEFINITELY LOOKS LIKE A CRASHED BIKE!!!! and according to bustedcarbon.com, that pic was posted by someone called figbug and NO DETAILS AS TO WHAT HAPPENED WERE GIVEN.
As regards the other pic in your misleading post, that looks like a very fixable chipping of the lacquered topcoat

aidanbike

I agree, I just wonder why people can be allowed to tell others to **** off here unchallenged. Are the mods dead?? or scared of Kona ??

aidanbike

Sorry, i should note those are 2 different bikes, the top one was prob crashed

check this link xz http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2009/09/pinarello-prince.html

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

from bustedcarbon.com Pinarello prince.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V54WWNeyyp4/Sp_ffi83lYI/AAAAAAAABmk/jm-iz5MGKds/s1600-h/toptube.jpg
Joshua sent this one in. 3 months old. Fell over. Toast.


It's not unexpected for a frame to break when it gets crashed into a concrete block at 40+ km/h, but when it just tips over and breaks, I think that hurts the most.

Wow, for the infallible material that sucks,
And for all the safety reps. burn your r-sys now.

Carbon, Kona pm me when your carbon chain comes in

LOL

Carbon chain? You are so ignorant to material science and engineering its embarrassing to see you talking the crap your spewing. You just dont have a clue what-so-ever.
What about aluminium? Type in de haviland comet an matal fatigue into google:rolleyes:
Your talking ****e. taking your wisdom from your earlier posts, have you seen that crashed frame in the flesh? Do you understand how carbon fibre is made and how it can be considerably weakened by damage to the laminate and water expaning inbetween the layers of the matrix?

DirkVoodoo

Yeah, I thought it was the clear coat too, but the top tend bends and makes cracking noises when you put downward force on it. Or when you pull up. Side to side it is fine. And there are some details missing from the what happened discussion. After it fell over a girl fell on top of it which is what caused the break. If anyone is interesting in inspecting it, or having it repaired, I could make them a great deal.

Hmmm....

aidanbike

Not meant to be misleading, Its a carbon frame that tipped over and broke.
And if you read down the page, its not just the top clear coat, the carbon is damaged.
Someone told me of a chap in this fine land on his third Prince having warrantied 2 of them. 2nd hand info i know, but i have no reason to doubt the source.

sy

kona wrote: »

P
so yea, if you dont like the way i ****ing talk you can put me on your ignore list or just **** off.

Would never question your knowledge of bikes but this is not acceptable

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

Carbon chain? You are so ignorant to material science and engineering its embarrassing to see you talking the crap your spewing. You just dont have a clue what-so-ever.
What about aluminium? Type in de haviland comet an matal fatigue into google:rolleyes:
Your talking ****e. taking your wisdom from your earlier posts, have you seen that crashed frame in the flesh? Do you understand how carbon fibre is made and how it can be considerably weakened by damage to the laminate and water expaning inbetween the layers of the matrix?

The carbon chain comment was my poorly understood and badly delivered attempt at sarcasm.
So you eventually make a good point, Its not the material ( carbon or metal) but the quality of the materials used and the talent of the builder.
I support that.

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

Kona, your pretty elitist, ever heard of Africa or Asia.
Do you think they all ride around with super record, To most of the world the bike is a necessary means of transport and your approach would not be much good to people who have a budget..

Kona Africa bike. Google it:rolleyes:

aidanbike wrote: »

Carbon is good, i agree, i was only using hyperbole to make a point. But it is also true a metal bike is much more likely to withstand a knock. I have seen metal bikes easily survive a hit, which would have killed a carbon frame. In aviation its not so much of an issue, as crashing is not so expected as for a racing bike. fair point...

The dynamic loads on the tail section of a A330 are far higher than on a Cervelo at 60 kmph with a rider on board. Yet the composites still surve, they also survive bird strikes at 300mph. A significant impact, far worse than a spill on a bike.

aidanbike wrote: »

Recently my brother had a bike into the shop with a cracked down tube, CF frame, something metallic on the road jumped off the wheel and broke the tube. Thankfully it was sent off and repaired. But i doubt Al, Fe or Ti would have cracked....

AL and Fe Ti are pure metals, the metals used in bike frames are alloys of these. Of which there are different grades and different heat treatments. Metals have a high region of elasticity, composites dont, if you graph the point of failures of these composites will go straigh up and then break, the metals graph will curve then break. Whilst the Metallic frame may stay intact , it may still be damaged in a way that it will fail on a later ride.

aidanbike wrote: »

I'm not a cheapskate, I dont mind paying for quality, but i have also had some very enjoyable cycles on my cheap bike as well as my bike with Record.....

Yea but you have a decent bike to fall back on, a cheap bike used everyday will cause so much hassle its not even worth it. It isnt unheard of for BSO to need BB and cranksets replaced within 6 weeks of purchase.

aidanbike wrote: »

nobody in my family will ride anything less than quality
I'm surprised you let your family out on any bike, is the Rolls in the garage? LOL.....

Nah but the jet is always fuelled and ready to go.:rolleyes:

aidanbike wrote: »

Pity about the level of your discourse, you potty mouth.

Oh you rascal:o

DirkVoodoo

Well, it took a lot of googling but cozy beehive came good:

Recently, a reader and fan of this blog - Anthony Hendrickson, with Materials & Process Engineering at Boeing Rotorcraft Systems, sent me a photo of his friend's high end Pinarello. This rider went into a turn about three wide at speed and got pushed to the outside. He wound up going into a ditch/gully running parallel to the road and the bike just broke into two pieces. Take a look :

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/07/decommisioned-bicycles-their-waste.html

Any other misinformation about bikes failing spectacularly after being tipped over? That prince was an obvious crash, bikes don't snap like that from everyday use and a lot of head on crashes snap down and top tubes in that manner. Frankly, the more energy the frame takes in a crash the happier I would be.

I like this too:

"Carbon fiber bikes can be repaired indefinitely. Unlike metals, carbon composites don't fatigue and become not worth repairing. Of course, one should evaluate the cost of repair with the value of the frame.

If cared for, they don't corrode. But they are biodegradable over time. The epoxy matrix is an amine, which can be digested by various organisms. The carbon fiber is harder to break down but it eventually does.

I had an accident working on a freshly molded carbon frame and a big carbon splinter became embedded in my leg. I went to the hospital to see about having it removed. The doc asked what it was made of and I told him. He said my body would probably digest it in a couple of years - better than surgery. Sure enough, the small lump I could feel on my shin got smaller and disappeared.

Craig Calfee

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

Kona Africa bike. Google it:rolleyes:



The dynamic loads on the tail section of a A330 are far higher than on a Cervelo at 60 kmph with a rider on board. Yet the composites still surve, they also survive bird strikes at 300mph. A significant impact, far worse than a spill on a bike.

Well carbon bikes dont survive spills so well, so not sure that makes much sense.


AL and Fe Ti are pure metals, the metals used in bike frames are alloys of these. Of which there are different grades and different heat treatments. Metals have a high region of elasticity, composites dont, if you graph the point of failures of these composites will go straigh up and then break, the metals graph will curve then break. Whilst the Metallic frame may stay intact , it may still be damaged in a way that it will fail on a later ride.

Yes, we know all that, do you want me to list every possible metallic alloy. You failed to mention any grades or construction types of CF, which are equally as important.

Yea but you have a decent bike to fall back on, a cheap bike used everyday will cause so much hassle its not even worth it. It isnt unheard of for BSO to need BB and cranksets replaced within 6 weeks of purchase.

This originally started out about a 340E bike, hardly a bso

Nah but the jet is always fuelled and ready to go.:rolleyes:



Oh you rascal:o

Comments within quote

Sorry you didnt mentions it, where do you work,?

aidanbike

Look at this,
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/03/mavic-cosmic-carbone-ultimate.html
Any one ever have this happen on a 32 sp 3x wheel
Or care to discuss the r-sys.
I like carbon in certain applications. I have a 1st gen Record carbon chainet and i think it is one of the finest bike parts ever made. But i am not a carbon junkie.

chakattack

Can't believe I actually read this thread...what a waste of time.

I think from a previous post that Papac grew up in a bike shop so he is well qualified to give some constructive criticism on a potential bad investment. He is also a nice guy so give him a break.

xz

aidanbike wrote: »

Look at this,
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/03/mavic-cosmic-carbone-ultimate.html
Any one ever have this happen on a 32 sp 3x wheel
Or care to discuss the r-sys.
I like carbon in certain applications. I have a 1st gen Record carbon chainet and i think it is one of the finest bike parts ever made. But i am not a carbon junkie.

I see a lot of missing spokes , but NO carbon damage, in the top pic on your link,you can clearly see a flailing spoke, and at the speeds generated in a sprint finish, the most likely outcome was that a few more were going to get chewed up. I've had a spoke fail at a slow speed (roughly 20/25kmh)

kona

Aidan, what are the different production processes for carbon fibre?

aidanbike

You must have gone to specsavers XZ. What i can see at that distance is very little.
No carbon damage? Afaik the spokes are molded into the rim so a fair bit of damage done
The question stands though, would this ever happen with an Al or steel spoked wheel.

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

Aidan, what are the different production processes for carbon fibre?

http://www.fitwerx.com/carbon-fiber-frame-manufacturing-techniques-part-one-of-a-three-part-series-on-carbon-fiber

and specifically to cycling you can have a monocoque or lugged frame,

I'm no expert on this, stop trying to trip me up, but i think we all know carbon comes in various varieties.
Its the quality of the frame that counts, at the end of the day.
Calfee makes bikes from bamboo.

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

You must have gone to specsavers XZ. What i can see at that distance is very little.
No carbon damage? Afaik the spokes are molded into the rim so a fair bit of damage done
The question stands though, would this ever happen with an Al or steel spoked wheel.

Carbon fibre spokes are laced the exact same way as steel spokes, and since its Mavic they will be straight pull too.
I think alot of the carbon failures have to do with the way its produced, weave count and fibre quality. RTM, MDM or weather the matrix is thermoset or thermoplast. Lets not forget that a poorly built wheel could cause a wheel to rip apart like that, I say its equally likely for a metal wheel to fail like that.

xz

The Tensile strength of carbon Fibre is 11 times that of aluminium alloy and 6 times that of titanium alloy. the Ultimate strength of Carbon Fibre comes in at 5650 MPa, while that of Aluminium is 483MPa and Titanium is 900MPa, though aluminium and titanium have a yield strength, that being the stress it would take to permanently deform the material, Carbon Fibre does not. When it reaches it's max stress, it will break

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

http://www.fitwerx.com/carbon-fiber-frame-manufacturing-techniques-part-one-of-a-three-part-series-on-carbon-fiber

I'm no expert on this, stop trying to trip me up, but i think we all know carbon comes in various varieties.
Its the quality of the frame that counts, at the end of the day.
Renove make some super bikes from wood.

Wood is a composite too.

Well if your no expert why are you throwing all this crap about how bad carbon is? Perhaps you should study a bit about manufacturing processes.

If you want to get pedantic carbon fibres are produced 2 ways, either at high temperature or by electricity arcs in a gas.
The matrix Im not too sure what is used but im sure its a thermoset. What does differ is the manufacturing methods, you can have Matched Die Moulding, Resin Transfer Moulding, Lay up. They all have advantages and disadvantages. Personally I think alot of the carbon fibre failures are due to the fact that companies are cutting corners on manufacturing techniques.

Its cheaper to make steel and aluminium tubing than carbon fibre. The tooling to make the frames and parts have to be really accurate and need skilled people to use them.

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

Carbon fibre spokes are laced the exact same way as steel spokes, and since its Mavic they will be straight pull too.
I think alot of the carbon failures have to do with the way its produced, weave count and fibre quality. RTM, MDM or weather the matrix is thermoset or thermoplast. Lets not forget that a poorly built wheel could cause a wheel to rip apart like that, I say its equally likely for a metal wheel to fail like that.

Who has ever seen a metal wheel fail like that?
I'm waiting to see the pics, the internet is wide and vast so if it happened it will be on here.

DualFrontDiscs

Can someone please bring up Hitler so this thread can die?

DFD.

kona

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

Can someone please bring up Hitler so this thread can die?

DFD.

Strangely enough I already have....:p

xz

aidanbike wrote: »

You must have gone to specsavers XZ. What i can see at that distance is very little.
No carbon damage? Afaik the spokes are molded into the rim so a fair bit of damage done
The question stands though, would this ever happen with an Al or steel spoked wheel.

Ahem, you can clearly see from the arrow, there is a flailing spoke
.

I Didn't, nor have I ever been to Specsavers

xz

aidanbike wrote: »

Which brings me to my final point, I think it is sad that so many people feel the need to come on here and offer cynical or unhelpful comments. On many occasions i have seen people post comments which seem to have no other purpose than to demean the OP.
Is this really necessary?

There seems to be in some an arrogant attitude because they have a greater knowledge or a posher bike, this is a real blight on the sport of cycling and i find quiet repulsive.

The above is quoted from your original post, and thus far you have been a hippocrite

kona

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/29562/Another-cyclist-successfully-sues-over-bike-fault

Alloy wheel collapsed.

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

Wood is a composite too.

Well if your no expert why are you throwing all this crap about how bad carbon is? Perhaps you should study a bit about manufacturing processes.

If you want to get pedantic carbon fibres are produced 2 ways, either at high temperature or by electricity arcs in a gas.
The matrix Im not too sure what is used but im sure its a thermoset. What does differ is the manufacturing methods, you can have Matched Die Moulding, Resin Transfer Moulding, Lay up. They all have advantages and disadvantages. Personally I think alot of the carbon fibre failures are due to the fact that companies are cutting corners on manufacturing techniques.

Its cheaper to make steel and aluminium tubing than carbon fibre. The tooling to make the frames and parts have to be really accurate and need skilled people to use them.

Please reread what i wrote, I like carbon in certain applications.
I only made the point that high end stuff can break and be dangerous as well as cheaper stuff. Paying big money is not an absolute guarentee of quality.
And i never said carbon was bad fullstop, I just would not want it everywhere as some of these pics help explain.

You seem to get a lot of satisfaction blinding people with science.
Are you just disagreeing with everything i write on a point of principle.

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/29562/Another-cyclist-successfully-sues-over-bike-fault

Alloy wheel collapsed.

Thanks for posting that, interesting to see.
The pic seems wrong though as the aricle is about a mtb.

And i think someone on here said the OP should go for some sort of a Carrera.

Not really in the same league as a race wheel, but totally unaccptale, so to be fair a pic of a failing good quality race wheel would be a better comparison.

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

Please reread what i wrote, I like carbon in certain applications.
I only made the point that high end stuff can break and be dangerous as well as cheaper stuff. Paying big money is not an absolute guarentee of quality.
And i never said carbon was bad fullstop, I just would not want it everywhere as some of these pics help explain.

You seem to get a lot of satisfaction blinding people with science.
Are you just disagreeing with everything i write on a point of principle.

Nope, I disagree, because its extremely misinformed opinion.

Of course High end stuff can break, However a cheap bike is more likely to break and cost you alot more money in repairs than a high end bike.

I agree, Look at VAG, BMW, Most of the apartments and houses people overpaid for. MOney doesnt equal quality. But I never said it did, it is however a good guage of quality. Papac gave a reccomendation on a bike that was quality. He didnt just tell him to spend more. Your the one who came in here like Moses came to save the jews.
I hope you dont take offense but it sounds like you live a very shelterd life, getting all upset about bad language.

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

Thanks for posting that, interesting to see.
The pic seems wrong though as the aricle is about a mtb.

And i think someone on here said the OP should go for some sort of a Carrera.

Not really in the same league as a race wheel, but totally unaccptale, so to be fair a pic of a failing good quality race wheel would be a better comparison.

Not sure of the year but the 09 fury uses mavic 717 rims and shimano hubs.

However, Carrera have nothing to do with the wheel failure, Id imagine the background was the aggreved party abused the **** out of the bike, Halfords "Fixed" it, but left no tension in the spokes and it collapsed.

Carrera subway uses a different wheelset.

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

Nope, I disagree, because its extremely misinformed opinion.

Of course High end stuff can break, However a cheap bike is more likely to break and cost you alot more money in repairs than a high end bike.

I agree, Look at VAG, BMW, Most of the apartments and houses people overpaid for. MOney doesnt equal quality. But I never said it did, it is however a good guage of quality. Papac gave a reccomendation on a bike that was quality. He didnt just tell him to spend more. Your the one who came in here like Moses came to save the jews.
I hope you dont take offense but it sounds like you live a very shelterd life, getting all upset about bad language.

Not quiet a sheltered life, But there are some standards of decency. Someone else said you were out of order. Read the first post on the thread about Cycleogical and see how people like being told to **** off.

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

Not quiet a sheltered life, But there are some standards of decency. Someone else said you were out of order. Read the first post on the thread about Cycleogical and see how people like being told to **** off.

People are told to **** off for a reason. You were moaning about my language and the way your uncomfortable with the forum.

WHat do you expect me to say? Please stay? I like cyclogical, Ive only ever seen them tell messers and timewasters to **** off, and rightly so.

aidanbike

kona wrote: »

People are told to **** off for a reason. You were moaning about my language and the way your uncomfortable with the forum.

WHat do you expect me to say? Please stay? I like cyclogical, Ive only ever seen them tell messers and timewasters to **** off, and rightly so.

Oh so, you are the King of the forum and can treat everyone as you wish.
That this kind of stuff is allowed on a public forum shows the poor quality of moderation, What does it take to get banned on here.

kona

aidanbike wrote: »

Oh so, you are the King of the forum and can treat everyone as you wish.
That this kind of stuff is allowed on a public forum shows the poor quality of moderation, What does it take to get banned on here.

Ive been banned before. Nobody is king around here, just like you wont go through life without being told to **** off mate. You see I can take the abuse too.
I think the place is moderated excellently, unlike other forums where you cannot fart without a warning.

BostonB

LpPepper wrote: »

....Im not going to be using it for actual mountain cycling etc. but mainly for school and the occaisonal cycle to bohernabreena lakes .

Has shimano gears and brakes .

Thread well and truly derailed.

Lumen

aidanbike wrote: »

That this kind of stuff is allowed on a public forum shows the poor quality of moderation, What does it take to get banned on here.

Moaning about the quality of moderation. :pac:

Seriously, if you have a problem then report the post. I've been off racing with only GPRS connectivity all weekend so haven't read all the threads. The Report function alerts all moderators of this forum by e-mail so we can respond quickly.