[Article] TK Maxx Ordered to Stop Selling from Retail Park

sparkling sea

Kahless wrote: »

A right to employment is not the same as a guarantee of employment.

Totally agree but that doesn't mean they don't have a case.

sparkling sea

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

.....yes but take what case in what court and on what grounds? Can you point to any sort of case law or precedent?

It didn't seem to take Penney's very long to move into Railway Square and then back again. I mean how long can it take, it's not as if these types of shops require much internal remodelling is it?

The City Council's entire retail strategy is intended to retain and promote the vibrancy of the City Centre, either way this won't be helped by doughnut development.

SSE

It would have to be the High Court as jurisdiction deals with the validity of any law having regard to the Constitution and grounds would be the decison of the planners takes away the ability to earn a livelyhood - has to be workers because of locus standi. I would have to get out the books on case law or precedent, and can't be bothered at the minute but custom and practice would have some bearing, as would the Next shop.

The 18 month delay is more to do with T K Maxx themselves but this is only rumour but it did come from someone working in the shop, I am "reliably" told.

As for the City Council, retail strategy thats a joke.
The City planners specifically, don't appear to know their head from their hand, they have not retained but ruined the city and don't seem to understand the wants or needs of the people of Waterford, thats why the City is like a ghost town after in the evenings.
I would hate to think the very people who ruined Waterford without heeding any of the many warnings they were given now have the audacity to think they can rejuvenate Waterford but I bet they do. God help us; we are in trouble.

sunnysoutheast

sparkling sea wrote: »

It would have to be the High Court as jurisdiction deals with the validity of any law having regard to the Constitution and grounds would be the decison of the planners takes away the ability to earn a livelyhood - has to be workers because of locus standi. I would have to get out the books on case law or precedent, and can't be bothered at the minute but custom and practice would have some bearing, as would the Next shop.

The 18 month delay is more to do with T K Maxx themselves but this is only rumour but it did come from someone working in the shop, I am "reliably" told.

As for the City Council, retail strategy thats a joke.
The City planners specifically, don't appear to know their head from their hand, they have not retained but ruined the city and don't seem to understand the wants or needs of the people of Waterford, thats why the City is like a ghost town after in the evenings.
I would hate to think the very people who ruined Waterford without heeding any of the many warnings they were given now have the audacity to think they can rejuvenate Waterford but I bet they do. God help us; we are in trouble.

So I think you are suggesting that A.N. Person takes the State to the High Court for enforcing planning law resulting in A.N. Person losing their job due to the fact that A.N. Person's employer was in clear breach, confirmed on appeal? Yeah, good luck with that. Are you going to act pro bono?

I also find it laughable that you're slating the City Council a few days after we've had the most successful spraoi festival I can remember, plus the very successful launch of the Crystal Centre and the ongoing investment in the Viking quarter. The City hasn't felt as lively in a while, perhaps TK Maxx would be better off in Railway Square anyway.....

SSE

south

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

.....yes but take what case in what court and on what grounds? Can you point to any sort of case law or precedent?

It didn't seem to take Penney's very long to move into Railway Square and then back again. I mean how long can it take, it's not as if these types of shops require much internal remodelling is it?

The City Council's entire retail strategy is intended to retain and promote the vibrancy of the City Centre, either way this won't be helped by doughnut development.

SSE

this looks to be the work they want planning for.... the provision of an internal mezzanine. The development will consist of a mezzanine floor of approx. 12927 sq. ft, complete with escalators, 1 No. lift and 3 No. Stairs

Received Date: 15/03/2010 Decision Due Date: 09/05/2010


http://www.waterfordcity.ie/ePlan41/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=1043&LASiteID=0

sunnysoutheast

south wrote: »

this looks to be the work they want planning for.... the provision of an internal mezzanine. The development will consist of a mezzanine floor of approx. 12927 sq. ft, complete with escalators, 1 No. lift and 3 No. Stairs

Received Date: 15/03/2010 Decision Due Date: 09/05/2010


http://www.waterfordcity.ie/ePlan41/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=1043&LASiteID=0

Permission was granted I think? Unfortunately I don't think people will go as there is no parking on the mezzanine level.....:D

SSE

sparkling sea

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

So I think you are suggesting that A.N. Person takes the State to the High Court for enforcing planning law resulting in A.N. Person losing their job due to the fact that A.N. Person's employer was in clear breach, confirmed on appeal? Yeah, good luck with that. Are you going to act pro bono?

I also find it laughable that you're slating the City Council a few days after we've had the most successful spraoi festival I can remember, plus the very successful launch of the Crystal Centre and the ongoing investment in the Viking quarter. The City hasn't felt as lively in a while, perhaps TK Maxx would be better off in Railway Square anyway.....

SSE

You must be very young if you call the Waterford of today vibrant - you dont know what you've missed and you never will if you carry on as your going.

I think youll find that the Spraoi organisors are ambiguous about how successful this years Spraoi was (Listen to WLR interview) - I would say it was one of the least sucessful I can remember - we need a stage in the Applemarket at least.
On saying that, it is free so I would thank all those involved.

The sucess of the City speaks for itself (Ghosttown) - if you have tunnel vision be so be it.
Sorry dont know what A.N stands for, you have to be definitive to have locus standi. Flippantancy about peoples jobs and the impact it will have on their lives is not a track I would like to take. Mine is just a suggestion and where a company has little to lose all suggestions are worth investigation.

Everything is open to interpretation so dont be so quick to write things off

savic04

Psychedelic wrote: »

How is parking a nightmare? There's always plenty of spaces in each of the car parks, which you can see on the new signage which shows how many spaces available in each car park.

Too many closed down shops? What shops have closed, there's not that many, none that were that good anyway. As far as I can see all the good shops are still there, Alfie Hales, Shaws, John Palmer's, Tommy Hilfiger, Footlocker, Golden Discs, BPM, all the shops on George's Street and in George's Court, Debenhams, Dunnes, Heroes, Penney's, Sherwoods, Argos etc. I think we lost Adams and some ladies fashion shop in City Square; one of those units was replaced by Champion Sports. Pamela Scott is closing but will be re-opening in another store soon, and Lifestyle Sports are moving into where Pamela Scott were. TK Maxx will soon hopefully be in Railway Square which should help attract a few other shops to open there.

Take a walk through the city centre from Clock Tower to Masons and count how many empty shops you see, I'd be surprised if you counted more than a handful.

Patrick Street, plenty of closed shops not to mention the big cinema,Michael St the same... Old Stand never replaced with anything.. I am in town every day and have been for the last 15 years, the shops you mentioned there, every small town in Ireland has either the same or shops of equal quality. I hear so many people, women in particular going to KK or even Clonmel to shop as ''its better then here'' we are supposed to be a city, I fear it wont be long before people start travelling back to Dublin and Cork to shop like they did years ago. As for the car parks, what good is signs telling you about spaces when all you need to do is drop off of something at a shop or a quick 5 min trip. Waterford city centre is very small, hopefully the work on teh quay will bring people back down that way to shop. Its a shame we didnt get that newgate SC, the place badly needs it... As you say TK maxx in railway square would be good, but if it don't happen , which is the point of this thread,.... what else would go in there?

Its bad planning, I know loads of businesses in town who are not happy with how the place has been designed, all that one way traffic etc, ped' streets etc .. The feel of the place dont seem to be right at all, it seemed a good project and you would think its right, but without a flow of traffic in town, business has probably suffered in most cases... altho the bloody Recession hasnt helped too I guess.. I would gladly shop out of town in retail parks 90% of the time if I had to, and I presume there are loads more like me sad to say it to be honest.. I never forget an English tourist ask me one day just by the corner of Patrick St ''Where is the city centre''' your in it I replied to her amazement!

Minstrel27

Psychedelic wrote: »

How is parking a nightmare? There's always plenty of spaces in each of the car parks, which you can see on the new signage which shows how many spaces available in each car park.

Too many closed down shops? What shops have closed, there's not that many, none that were that good anyway. As far as I can see all the good shops are still there, Alfie Hales, Shaws, John Palmer's, Tommy Hilfiger, Footlocker, Golden Discs, BPM, all the shops on George's Street and in George's Court, Debenhams, Dunnes, Heroes, Penney's, Sherwoods, Argos etc. I think we lost Adams and some ladies fashion shop in City Square; one of those units was replaced by Champion Sports. Pamela Scott is closing but will be re-opening in another store soon, and Lifestyle Sports are moving into where Pamela Scott were. TK Maxx will soon hopefully be in Railway Square which should help attract a few other shops to open there.

Take a walk through the city centre from Clock Tower to Masons and count how many empty shops you see, I'd be surprised if you counted more than a handful.

There must not be any problems with retail in the town center. You have completely contradicted this guy.

Bards wrote: »

...and what about every other shop in the City Centre???? DO these workers not have the same rights - they are being put in jeopardy everytime an out-of-town retail development sets up

200motels

Yes Boss wrote: »

Sensible planning would never have allowed them to be situated in Butlerstown!! We need to strengthen the City Centre to ensure its survival!!

F*** the city center I hope it blows up, we're only a half assed city anyway there's more in Clonmel and Dungarvin is better as well.

200motels

Yes Boss wrote: »

So what is wrong with the City Centre? Why would more people go to Penny's in Railway Sq? What is the fundamental problem with the City??

Parking Charges.

savic04

200motels wrote: »

Parking Charges.

Poor planning
McCann being given too much say

Chris P. Bacon

200motels wrote: »

F*** the city center I hope it blows up, we're only a half assed city anyway there's more in Clonmel and Dungarvin is better as well.

Well go live in Clonmel or Dungarvan,your living in the best city in Ireland and if you cant appreciate that then thats your problem...

coolperson05

savic04 wrote: »

Poor planning
McCann being given too much say

Exactly no planning! We need to stop putting retail parks and shopping centres outside of the city to be empty (Ferrybank, Cork Rd, Six cross roads retail pk, etc) and put some shops in town! All those English/European branches of stores will only open in a clean shell unit! They don't want to be transforming existing shops or building work. It's happened all over the country, places like Clonmel, Newbridge, Kilkenny etc had nothing till a purpose built shopping centre came along. City Square isn't good enough!

Minstrel27

Richie Cranium wrote: »

your living in the best city in Ireland

ORLY? What has Waterford got that pushes it ahead of other cities in Ireland?

Chris P. Bacon

Minstrel27 wrote: »

ORLY? What has Waterford got that pushes it ahead of other cities in Ireland?

Blaas..

Minstrel27

So you think the best city tag is earned because of some blaas. Moving on.

Chris P. Bacon

Yes,probably best to keep moving on.

Hoffmans

whats the big deal with tk muxx:rolleyes: anyways,
they sell nuthin but old musty seconds and returns from the uk catalogue market go to oxfam in town least they seemingly wash the old threads before they sell them ......

200motels

Richie Cranium wrote: »

Well go live in Clonmel or Dungarvan,your living in the best city in Ireland and if you cant appreciate that then thats your problem...

Your living in another world.

Chris P. Bacon

200motels wrote: »

Your living in another world.

No just very proud to be from Waterford.

Minstrel27

Hoffmans wrote: »

whats the big deal with tk muxx:rolleyes: anyways,
they sell nuthin but old musty seconds and returns from the uk catalogue market go to oxfam in town least they seemingly wash the old threads before they sell them ......

Oh I agree. All their goods are sooooooooooooo last season.

sparkling sea

Richie Cranium wrote: »

No just very proud to be from Waterford.

To quote from The Never Ending Story "The nothing is taking over, its all disappearing, if we don't do something, everything will be gone":p if your proud of don't stand back and watch it being destroyed

Chris P. Bacon

sparkling sea wrote: »

To quote from The Never Ending Story "The nothing is taking over, its all disappearing, if we don't do something, everything will be gone":p if your proud of don't stand back and watch it being destroyed

How do you know im not doing something about it.

Minstrel27

What are you doing?

Speak Now

Minstrel27 wrote: »

What are you doing?

Posting on Boards

sparkling sea

Richie Cranium wrote: »

How do you know im not doing something about it.

Go on then give us a few tips

200motels

Richie Cranium wrote: »

No just very proud to be from Waterford.

Yes and nothing wrong with that but when it's blind pride it's a bit silly. I'm proud of Waterford too but I'm not afraid to speak out when somethings wrong about the city and there's alot wrong with our city, and so as not to be too negative there's a lot right with it as well.

Psychedelic

A lot of people were giving out and saying jobs would be lost by TK Maxx's Butlerstown store having to close, but guess what, they are staying in Waterford and I bet they will be in the city centre.

TK Maxx to remain in Waterford

THE closure of the TK Maxx store in Butlerstown will take place on Monday next.

A new home for the retail giant has been found but the company are yet to disclose where this is.

“We are delighted to confirm that we have secured a new site to open a store in Waterford. We are now able to retain our associates and are extremely pleased to be able to maintain our highly valued relationship with our customers and the community in Waterford,” a spokesperson said.

“The Butlerstown Store will close on August 30 and further details about the new site and opening date will be made available shortly,” she said.
The store was forced to close by the High Court after it was found to be in breach of planning regulations, which only allow bulky goods to be sold in the units at the retail park located on the Outer Ring Road.

http://www.waterford-news.com/news/story/?trs=mhmhmhkfcw&cat=news

wobbles

Spoke with someone working in TK Maxx yesterday and they are moving to railway square, opening sometime in October.

merlante

Psychedelic wrote: »

A lot of people were giving out and saying jobs would be lost by TK Maxx's Butlerstown store having to close, but guess what, they are staying in Waterford and I bet they will be in the city centre.


http://www.waterford-news.com/news/story/?trs=mhmhmhkfcw&cat=news

Exactly. TkMaxx are in Waterford to make money, and they have been doing a very lucrative trade so far. They have also been breaking planning regulations, though.

The elected city council are the ones who plan this city, not TkMaxx. TkMaxx will be an excellent addition to the city centre (I presume this is where they'll go) and will help to keep the city's retail cohesive and strong, and will benefit trade generally.

rasper

Psychedelic wrote: »

A lot of people were giving out and saying jobs would be lost by TK Maxx's Butlerstown store having to close, but guess what, they are staying in Waterford and I bet they will be in the city centre.


http://www.waterford-news.com/news/story/?trs=mhmhmhkfcw&cat=news

Personally I hope no future jobs are lost but especially in these tough times prospective businesses will not view protectionist planning regulations with favour, when they can just as easily locate in areas with more receptive and enterprising councils.
I hope not but to force a business into a particular area with higher expense and less to offer is economic suicide IMO.

Aquos76

wobbles wrote: »

Spoke with someone working in TK Maxx yesterday and they are moving to railway square, opening sometime in October.

That's gas, because I heard that they looked at that unit and decided that it was not suitable for their needs and that they had turned their attentions to the shopping centre in Ferrybank.

The only problem I could see for them with railway square is the lack of parking. It worked out very well for pennys by all accounts though. On the other hand, I'm sure they could negotiate a very good lease over in Ferrybank as they would certainly attract other business in to the centre, but would people venture over there, that would be the gamble I'd imagine.

merlante

rasper wrote: »

Personally I hope no future jobs are lost but especially in these tough times prospective businesses will not view protectionist planning regulations with favour, when they can just as easily locate in areas with more receptive and enterprising councils.
I hope not but to force a business into a particular area with higher expense and less to offer is economic suicide IMO.

Protectionist is a funny word to use. Enhancing city centres sustain business in the long run, promoting out of town shopping weakens city retail in the long run. I know we prefer not to think about the long run in Ireland, but given the fact that the country is bankrupt because of it, it might be a good time to start.

Companies playing counties off one another in order to weaken regulatory controls is a classic race to the bottom. It is not the sort of thing you want to give into because in the end there are no winners.

AdMMM

Surely they've let the cat out of the bag by saying they're opening in Waterford and not Kilkenny which is where the other prospective site is located?

I'll be able to visit it for the first time when they do reopen because I've never been able to get out there before, yet often shopped in their Stephens Green branch.

dayshah

rasper wrote: »

Personally I hope no future jobs are lost but especially in these tough times prospective businesses will not view protectionist planning regulations with favour, when they can just as easily locate in areas with more receptive and enterprising councils.
I hope not but to force a business into a particular area with higher expense and less to offer is economic suicide IMO.

Do you know where TK Maxx is located???

Its in a different councils jurisdiction (County Council). They have tried what you suggested, an are now opening in the City Council's patch.

Psychedelic

rasper wrote: »

I hope not but to force a business into a particular area with higher expense and less to offer is economic suicide IMO.

A lot of people seem to be under this impression that the City Council has forced TK Maxx to close their Butlerstown store. This is NOT the case. An Bord Pleanala forced it to close based on complaints it received, and of course it also goes against the Co. Council's own planning guidelines for the retail park. The City Council obviously wanted TK Maxx in the city centre, but they did not force them there.

If indeed TK Maxx are to move into Railway Square this will be a great boost for the city, in terms of the extra choice for shoppers helping to increase footfall which will in turn benefit the other shops, the commercial rates TK Maxx will be paying City Council, all the TK Maxx employees who will be getting their lunch in the nearby cafes etc.

JohnC.

Aquos76 wrote: »

That's gas, because I heard that they looked at that unit and decided that it was not suitable for their needs

Was that before or after the modifications which planning was being sought for, and apparently granted with 3 conditions?

Be it for TKMaxx or not, I did see builders in there today looking like they are going to start work on it.

south

Railway Square in 8 weeks time i heard.

coolperson05

Yup. Friend of mine works there. Being paid to work in KK/Cork stores till November. Opening in Pennies old unit. No mezzanine.

rasper

all I'm saying is that yes the battle with TK Max has been won and they have been forced into the CC , and yes its a coup for the local cafes, retailers , landlords of the CC, but I dont think anyone knows will there be jobs created or lost by the move, and the next employer may just Bypass Waterford altogether.
BTW I wonder do the employees and customers actually want to travel into the CC with its extra hassle and expense , but that hardly matters at all.

dayshah

rasper wrote: »

all I'm saying is that yes the battle with TK Max has been won and they have been forced into the CC , and yes its a coup for the local cafes, retailers , landlords of the CC, but I dont think anyone knows will there be jobs created or lost by the move, and the next employer may just Bypass Waterford altogether.
BTW I wonder do the employees and customers actually want to travel into the CC with its extra hassle and expense , but that hardly matters at all.

The planning issues for retail and other sectors are very different. We suffer a risk of a donut effect with retail due to public good issues. A donut effect with industry or other jobs (like some financial firm locating away from the city centre) is not such a big problem.

Retail jobs are grand, but we can't have a city employment strategy focused solely on retail.

O Riain

rasper wrote: »

all I'm saying is that yes the battle with TK Max has been won and they have been forced into the CC , and yes its a coup for the local cafes, retailers , landlords of the CC, but I dont think anyone knows will there be jobs created or lost by the move, and the next employer may just Bypass Waterford altogether.
BTW I wonder do the employees and customers actually want to travel into the CC with its extra hassle and expense , but that hardly matters at all.

Yes cause I'm sure every single one of them has a car to drive out to the outer ring road, and sure when the car wasn't available, they use to just get the bus out there!

rasper

Thats true and I very much agree but to force any sector into unsuitable , over priced premises with limited parking and congested links is surely counter productive, when if they move into modern purpose built units on the ring roads it takes the pressure off the CC.
Can the landlords and businesses of the CC not attract investment and customers in or is the rest of the western world wrong and should adopt Waterford as their role model.

merlante

rasper wrote: »

Thats true and I very much agree but to force any sector into unsuitable , over priced premises with limited parking and congested links is surely counter productive, when if they move into modern purpose built units on the ring roads it takes the pressure off the CC.
Can the landlords and businesses of the CC not attract investment and customers in or is the rest of the western world wrong and should adopt Waterford as their role model.

City centres have died in many places. The idea that every shop can have 50 spaces outside it is not one that scales. If every shop moved to the outer ring road with a big carpark, they'd soon run out of space, and of course people would have to drive from shop to shop.

When it's only TkMaxx, the city centre suffers and TkMaxx gains. If all shops were allowed on the ORR, in the end, not only would the city centre be in big trouble, but shops would be inaccessible to those without cars, and those with cars would spend a lot more of fuel, going shop to shop and home, than they ever would on parking in the city centre. We don't know how well we have it at the moment. We have a chance to avoid the mistakes made in Dublin and elsewhere across the world. Markets, cafes, hair salons, and many other businesses depend on busy streets and passing trade. These businesses do not flourish in retail parks to anything like the same degree.

rasper

to me its artificially creating a false market keeping rents high in the CC, it is about protecting the vested interests not about saving fuel.
Let the businesses attract the customers and if they cant the new ones will.

merlante

rasper wrote: »

to me its artificially creating a false market keeping rents high in the CC, it is about protecting the vested interests not about saving fuel.

If the rents are high in the CC, it's not because there is a robust market, that's for sure. Everyone knows that demand for units in town is low. Some of the shops that are opening on the main streets clearly wouldn't be able to pay much rent. If individual rents are high, it might have more to do with landlords refusing to lower them rather than the market forcing them up. There are also many secondary retail streets, such as the quay, where the rents would be very low in some cases.

The fact of the matter is it is now considered best practice worldwide to protect and enhance town centres and foster higher density living. Services are cheaper to provide for councils and the cost of living is lower for ordinary people as a result.

rasper wrote: »

Let the businesses attract the customers and if they cant the new ones will.

But what if businesses increasingly want hassle free locations out of town with less planning concerns? Does that mean we let them all pick their acre of space wherever they want in the countryside? How will people get to them? What is the point of living in a town/city when you have to leave it to go shopping? What is the point in the council, upgrading parks, installing public toilets, running buses, bringing in festivals like the Tall Ships, etc., fixing roads, and so on, if we are just going to let the city be abandoned just for the short team convenience of UK retailers who couldn't give a damn about where Waterford will be in 20 years?

Businesses do attract customers wherever they go, so if we want people to shop in the city centre, that's where the businesses should be going.

I'm not talking here about supermarkets and warehouse stores, but normal comparison retail. If it is shirts, jackets, shoes, CDs, DVDs, etc., then the stores should be in town competing with other stores as part of a competitive ecosystem that gives consumers the best choice.

racram

coolperson05 wrote: »

Yup. Friend of mine works there. Being paid to work in KK/Cork stores till November. Opening in Pennies old unit. No mezzanine.

What do you mean by no mezzanine? Is it going to be the size that the Penny's was then? Pity, it'll be much smaller than it is now.:(