grain

tommyboy26

can someone explain to me the reason for using different grain in bullets?


tommy

Cass

So as to achieve the best possible result with the rifle you are using and for the purpose you have it.

As everyone uses different rifles and no one bullet can perform the same in the different rifles each manufacturer produces different grainage bullets to perform in different rifles with a set twist rate, barrel length, caliber, etc. Also taken into account is the primary use for the bullet. A target bullet needs speed/velocity and the ability to buck the wind well. A hunting round needs a high impact energy and to break up upon impact (among other things). So a target round could not (in most cases/calibers) be used for hunting. Not safely anyway.

Other manufacturers that also produce firearms produce bullets primarily designed for use in their own brand firearms. Not always the best option, but they think it is. See Winchester, Remington, Sako and others for examples.

tommyboy26

so generally speaking is it better to have a high or low grainage for target shooting?

Sparks

Depends, but from the Olympic side of things, the bullet weight isn't as important as the consistency from round to round. There was a heavier round used in smallbore for a while (Lapua Scoremax) which was somewhat better under some wind conditions, but apart from that, everyone's more or less settled on ~40-42 grains for their bullets and focussed their R&D on consistency of manufacture. There is some variation on the velocity they use, but there are tradeoffs there - higher velocity means less time in the barrel and possibly a cleaner start for the shot, but more wind deflection.

For fullbore shooting, there are a host of other considerations though...

tommyboy26

i use eley team in my .22 b.s.a and find them excellent tried eley match but they had same results as eley team. the reason i enquire about grainage is i was in the midlands on saturday and seen a sign advertising .308 hps target ammo for sale and the price seemed right just didnt know the difference in the grain



tommy

Sparks

The difference between Eley Team and Eley Match is only going to be two or three percent at most - and you'd have to shoot 50-60 perfect to be able to spot it easily.

Not sure about the .308 stuff, but ask the lads in here, several do fullbore target shooting.

tac foley

tommyboy26 wrote: »

can someone explain to me the reason for using different grain in bullets? tommy

Sir - I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here, and maybe I'm talking way out of line, but you seem to be confused about the meaning of the word 'grain'.

The word 'grain' with reference to bullets is their actual weight, in grains. There are 7000 grains to the pound.

A .22 rimfire bullet weighs, depending on the make and use, anything between 35 and 45gr - the abbreviation for grain.

The bullets shot in a .308Win rifle cartridge weigh anything between 155gr [usually] right up to 200gr.

The weight of the bullet depends on a number of factors, whether or not not you need long-range accuracy, in which case you will shoot heavier, full-metal jacketed bullets, or shorter range expansive performance, in which case a light bullet of a different type of jacket construction is needed.

What you really need is a knowledgeable shooter to take you away for a couple of hours and show you a range of different bullet types and calibres, to give you some idea of the vast range of current ammunition available for different purposes.

Lacking the more usual hobby of handloading/reloading that the rest of the shooting wolrd has, you are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to bullet examination though, since you are not allowed to have components to look at.

I don't know what the .308Win ammunition available at the Midlands range is, so I can't advise you there. You will, of course, need a .308Win rifle to shoot it.... : )

...and Mr ezridax, a hunting bullet that breaks up on impact is as useful as tits on a chicken. Controlled expansion and deep penetration whilst doing so is what is required of a deer hunting bullet, not surface explosions.

Best to all

tac
Suporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

Tackleberrywho

tommyboy26 wrote: »

can someone explain to me the reason for using different grain in bullets?


tommy

Sometimes certain grains work best in certain twist rates.

I had a swedish mauser that 108 grains Lapua gold medal grouped best.
I had tried 108,126,140 and 150.
Best were 108 for accuracy, worst were 60 grain lapua trainers

So try different grains and see what best suits your requirements

Cass

I use Eley Match in 40gr at (max) 1050 fps for my .22 benchrest shooting.

For the fullbore i currently use 175gr HPS-TR .308 rounds. I have used 155 to 190 grain and have settled on 175gr (for the moment anyway).

The 155gr have the velocity (approx. 2950fps) that requires less moa for the longer distances, but do suffer from wind deflection more so than other rounds.

The 168gr have a lower velocity (approx. 2650-ish) meaning more moa is needed for the same distances. Being a heavier round they have a slightly better wind bucking potential.

the 175gr seem to have the better of both the 155 and 168. Faster velocity than the 168, but less than the 155. It does however hold the same if not better wind bucking properties than the 168.

All of this is with a 30", heavy barrel with a 1:12 twist rate. And all of this is with the HPS-TR ammunition.

Other lads with TRGs (1:12 twist rate and 26" barrels) seem to be getting good results with the 155gr. The only advice i can offer is to try the different types, in similar conditions an see what suits both the rifle and your style of shooting.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

as useful as tits on a chicken

Well, we have bred them for larger amounts of breast meat....

tac foley

ezridax wrote: »

I use Eley Match in 40gr at (max) 1050 fps for my .22 benchrest shooting.

For the fullbore i currently use 175gr HPS-TR .308 rounds. I have used 155 to 190 grain and have settled on 175gr (for the moment anyway).

The 155gr have the velocity (approx. 2950fps) that requires less moa for the longer distances, but do suffer from wind deflection more so than other rounds.

The 168gr have a lower velocity (approx. 2650-ish) meaning more moa is needed for the same distances. Being a heavier round they have a slightly better wind bucking potential.

the 175gr seem to have the better of both the 155 and 168. Faster velocity than the 168, but less than the 155. It does however hold the same if not better wind bucking properties than the 168.

All of this is with a 30", heavy barrel with a 1:12 twist rate. And all of this is with the HPS-TR ammunition.

Other lads with TRGs (1:12 twist rate and 26" barrels) seem to be getting good results with the 155gr. The only advice i can offer is to try the different types, in similar conditions an see what suits both the rifle and your style of shooting.

+1.

Good response.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

tommyboy26

my rifle will be going to john greene shortly(hopefully) and when it comes back it will have a 30inch barrell with a 1 :12 twist so will wait till then and just try out various grain and make rounds

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

.............I don't know what the .308Win ammunition available at the Midlands range is,

The ammunition is not available at the midlands, merely advertised there, amongst sport shooters that may be interested in it.

...and Mr ezridax, a hunting bullet that breaks up on impact is as useful as tits on a chicken. Controlled expansion and deep penetration whilst doing so is what is required of a deer hunting bullet, not surface explosions.

So i did not give a full explanation of the exact meaning of the effect of a hunting round. All that is required is the request to further explain or for someone, such as yourself, to come along and elaborate on the point. Not to insult and belittle.

Tackleberrywho

tommyboy26 wrote: »

my rifle will be going to john greene shortly(hopefully) and when it comes back it will have a 30inch barrell with a 1 :12 twist so will wait till then and just try out various grain and make rounds

What calibre my 26" .223 is currently 1/12 but I am going 1/10 after speaking with a rep from Trueflite NZ.
The reason being I can go up to a 68 grian and possible make the 55grain, my fav round on a bunny more accurate.

30" AFAIK is the max length to maximize your feet per second speed, after 30 you start to lose speed on a small round as it reaches its optimum @30" in most small calibers (not cannons lol)

the problem is heavy grain has a more pronounced curve but better wind resistance.
The lighter rounds have a lesser curve over the same ranges but are more susceptible to wind drift.

And how much the barrel cost and what make??

tommyboy26

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

What calibre my 26" .223 is currently 1/12 but I am going 1/10 after speaking with a rep from Trueflite NZ.
The reason being I can go up to a 68 grian and possible make the 55grain, my fav round on a bunny more accurate.

30" AFAIK is the max length to maximize your feet per second speed, after 30 you start to lose speed on a small round as it reaches its optimum @30" in most small calibers (not cannons lol)

the problem is heavy grain has a more pronounced curve but better wind resistance.
The lighter rounds have a lesser curve over the same ranges but are more susceptible to wind drift.

And how much the barrel cost and what make??

its a .308. new barrell full fitted and threaded 960 euro and forgive my fibble brain cant remember make.... also ordered a timney trigger and new stock yet to be decided(i cant decide between aics or wooden) whole lot around 1600

tommy

tac foley

ezridax wrote: »

The ammunition is not available at the midlands, merely advertised there, amongst sport shooters that may be interested in it.

So i did not give a full explanation of the exact meaning of the effect of a hunting round. All that is required is the request to further explain or for someone, such as yourself, to come along and elaborate on the point. Not to insult and belittle.

Ah, right. Sorry that my post came over to you like that. Insulting and belittling was not my intention - you can be certain sure that if it had been, I would have PM'd you instead of making a public post as I did, and kept it between us. I, on the other hand, thought it was rather funny, but then, I AM a furriner with a somewhat robust sense of humour modified by almost twenty five years of periodically being shot at by a few people to the north of where YOU live. Sadly, much as I'd love to come along and elaborate, I live almost 600 miles away for some of the time, 3500 miles away most of the time, and 6000 miles way for the rest of the time, so it's all a mite difficult.

Add to that that I can't use emoticons to enliven my posts, and you can see how hard it is for me to post what would seem to you to be a reasonable response.

I really do try and get on with most people, but we can't love everybody or make everybody happy all the time with the answers we give, so I'll try hard in future not to offer any opinion that might be construed as insulting or belittling, misplaced or otherwise, and take it from there...

Best wishes

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

Ah, right. Sorry that my post came over to you like that. Insulting and belittling was not my intention - you can be certain sure that if it had been, I would have PM'd you instead of making a public post as I did, and kept it between us. I, on the other hand, thought it was rather funny, but then, I AM a furriner with a somewhat robust sense of humour modified by almost twenty five years of periodically being shot at by a few people to the north of where YOU live. Sadly, much as I'd love to come along and elaborate, I live almost 600 miles away for some of the time, 3500 miles away most of the time, and 6000 miles way for the rest of the time, so it's all a mite difficult.

Add to that that I can't use emoticons to enliven my posts, and you can see how hard it is for me to post what would seem to you to be a reasonable response.

I really do try and get on with most people, but we can't love everybody or make everybody happy all the time with the answers we give, so I'll try hard in future not to offer any opinion that might be construed as insulting or belittling, misplaced or otherwise, and take it from there...

Best wishes

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

I understand where you are coming from, I use Btipped rounds to great success. norma in 6.5 and Hornady in .308 and .223. I'd never go soft nosed again.
We have no Cape buffalo here so Ballistic tips work just fine on head kneck shots on fallow,fox and bunny.

In regards the North, sure we are friends now
I know a lot of young Irish fighting in the Gulf as we speak as there was no jobs here but the queen offered the shilling
I hope they make it home safe:( A lot of casualties.

The emoticons just click the smilies icon on the right of the post box

tac foley

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, I use Btipped rounds to great success. norma in 6.5 and Hornady in .308 and .223. I'd never go soft nosed again.
We have no Cape buffalo here so Ballistic tips work just fine on head kneck shots on fallow,fox and bunny.

In regards the North, sure we are friends now
I know a lot of young Irish fighting in the Gulf as we speak as there was no jobs here but the queen offered the shilling
I hope they make it home safe:( A lot of casualties.

The emoticons just click the smilies icon on the right of the post box

Dear Mr Tackleberry - thanks for the placatory note, us part-furriners are not all total gobsh*tes, as I'm sure you are well aware. I do most of my fun-type rifle shooting in the UK, but do not go deer-stalking, although where I live there would be ample opportuity if I was so inclined. The club to which I belong has almost 250 members, most of who DO engage in this form of shooting sport, but I am purely a fun paper shooter these days.

Of course, I am prohibited from having soft-point or expansive ammunition, since I don't shoot game, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the other part of our great hobby - one that, sadly, is right now not permitted in the RoI - reloading/handloading.

This fascinating and money-saving [sometimes] element of the sport allows me to shoot my two .308s, two 7.5Swiss and two 7mm Mausers with any bullet I like [for target purposes, that is].

Since I am a noob here, you may not be aware that I have spent a lot of time and effort with the organisers of another Irish site in my capacity as an advisor, trying, so far with no sign of any success, to influence the DoJ to adopt a more 'friendly' attitude to reloading/handloading for ALL, not just the elite element of Irish target rifle shooting.

As for our brave young lads and lasses, G*d bless them and keep them all safe.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

PS - Since I work in Japan as well, I have to use a Japanese PC and lap-top - both of which use Japanese OS, as I've noted on another thread. Emoticons just appear as little black boxes for me, so are useless.

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

Dear Mr Tackleberry - thanks for the placatory note, us part-furriners are not all total gobsh*tes, as I'm sure you are well aware. I do most of my fun-type rifle shooting in the UK, but do not go deer-stalking, although where I live there would be ample opportuity if I was so inclined. The club to which I belong has almost 250 members, most of who DO engage in this form of shooting sport, but I am purely a fun paper shooter these days.

Of course, I am prohibited from having soft-point or expansive ammunition, since I don't shoot game, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the other part of our great hobby - one that, sadly, is right now not permitted in the RoI - reloading/handloading.

This fascinating and money-saving [sometimes] element of the sport allows me to shoot my two .308s, two 7.5Swiss and two 7mm Mausers with any bullet I like [for target purposes, that is].

Since I am a noob here, you may not be aware that I have spent a lot of time and effort with the organisers of another Irish site in my capacity as an advisor, trying, so far with no sign of any success, to influence the DoJ to adopt a more 'friendly' attitude to reloading/handloading for ALL, not just the elite element of Irish target rifle shooting.

As for our brave young lads and lasses, G*d bless them and keep them all safe.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

PS - Since I work in Japan as well, I have to use a Japanese PC and lap-top - both of which use Japanese OS, as I've noted on another thread. Emoticons just appear as little black boxes for me, so are useless.

You can buy a USB translotor keyboard AFAIK , I have worked with Japanese, Russian and Israeli fellow with the same problems, they had some after market keyboard that they used for there language on US config'ed set up.

In regards loading, the Creed Moor cup should hopefully get us in good favour with DOJ and maybe we will be let load.
I'd like to try different grain loads in my .308 to experiment if nothing else.
Maybe develope a varmint round that suited my Rifle set up.